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I am here to stay
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 05:14    Post_subject:  I am here to stay
Sub_title: Another project will be taking all my time mostly tho
 

Sup Dawgs?

Update: 10/10/2012
I apologize for the general negative posts I have done frequently over the last 9 months to a year. The problem was me, personal problems and when your not in your right mind, a small pebble on the road seems like a snow capped mountain. In my quest to improve Puppy maybe i did it in the wrong way. Apologies to the major Puppy devs, i know you are always doing your best. Puppy is basicly perfect except the difficulty of installing packages that arent in the puppy repos and i saw this problem as something i could fix. However in my ranting i did not intend to offend the creators of Puppy. My holy grail is to give Puppy the same standard of compatibility as Ubuntu and Debian and this may not actually happen but i will try my hardest anyway.

_____________________________________________________________

Update: Pussy is now something separate from Puppy and i am spending all my time on Pussy and will no longer be doing puppy linux things. Im leaving the world of Puppy but im not going very far as its been made clear to me that Pussy is still welcome on the murga-linux forum. I thought that not being Puppy related it was rude of me to continue on a Puppy forum but apparently its not an issue at all. Thanks to John Murga and the forum, Pussy's home is still here.

I want to make one thing clear i am not irate and im not feuding or having a hissy fit, this comes down to a question of time.

As most of the dev community here know its been my mission to strengthen what i see as Puppy's only weakness: package management.

This lead to me creating a mod for Puppy 5 that uses the apt-get system from ubuntu/ debian to get packages, altho useful for games and smaller packages that dont rely on any kernel specific stuff this package can completely ruin your Puppy and result in a non booting system. Simply put, puppy isnt debain or ubuntu, there are scripts that are specific to puppy that get over written by other distros scripts and Puppy runs such a stripped kernel that it breaks compatibility with even simple things that it seems every other distro can use. After this flop i decided on 2 ways to go, develop a OS that used a major distros base and package management (debian, apt-get) and then proceed to make it as Puppy like as possible, or develop a universal package manager that i would call "Shoehorn" that manages packages and deps statically. It seems i never got to develop "Shoehorn" because the first idea worked, and that is the OS now named Pussy:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69475
http://www.thepussycatforest.info

This has been what i would call a success but the purpose of me making this distro was to show puppy devs that they can have package management that is as good as other distros while maintaining the speed, size, efficiency of Puppy all the while keeping a standard unstripped kernel. I would have thought this a good thing because due to being compatible with the 20,000+ packages in the debian repos (100% compatibility, can install anything with no issues at all) this would free up the devs to actually work on Puppy, not spend the rest of their lives compiling a new repo of software for every new version of Puppy that comes out.

Simply put, i havent had so much as a nod from the Puppy dev community regarding package management and Pussy. Comments like: "If you going to use debian, then use debian" equally apply to Puppy: "If your gonna use Puppy then use Puppy". Ofcause im flamed for Pussy not being puppylike enough, but from day one i was asking the help of puppy devs to MAKE pussy more puppylike. This hasnt happend but Pussy has become popular on its own. I have been deliberately holding Pussy back, waiting for input from Puppy devs, hoping that Pussy wouldnt become popular on its own but that the ideas from it could be applied to a new puppy or this pussy could be turned into something more Puppy like.

There is only 1 reason that Puppy is #9 on distrowatch and not #1, and that is its hard to install software onto puppy that isnt immediately available in the Puppy repos. IF Puppy was able to install 20,000+ packages at the drop of a hat with no dependency hunting and problem solving then Barry would not only be one of the most recognizable celebrities in the world but there would be a another few hundred thousand people using Puppy within a few months.

I simply cannot help the community here anymore, ive tried my hardest and now there is such an obvious flaw in Puppy that no Puppy devs wants to address that i cant be of any use. I actually regret making this demo of Pussy now because i get the feeling from everyone that if i had not done it then the main puppy devs would have done something similar, but now ive done it and its known as Pussy and puppy devs want to be known for doing their own ideas, this entire subject is being avoided i think there is an element of ego here. so to the puppy devs that are concerned with who gets the credit just use the idea and not mention me at all, please. I personally am retired due to sickness and want an uncomplicated life and i do not seek any financial benefit in the long run as i have a pension (any financial gain interferes with the pension, why would i do that?) and i really could do without the attention. This is all about helping other people and computers is about the only thing i can practically help people with in my life and i want to do that best i can.

Puppy cannot become any more popular that it already is unless the package management issue is fixed, and because of this and believing this very strongly, im abandoning Puppy, i cant help a dog that wont help itself. I only see the big picture and im sorry but Puppy will be left behind unless it changes. I read once on Barry's site that Puppy is a set of applications that have been wisely and carefully selected to run efficiently wile providing a good amount of functionality. Or something similar to that dont know exact words. He wasnt saying here that Puppy is any OS that uses the Puppy kernel.

Its been more than 6 months since Pussies release and call to the puppy dev world to get on board, now the ship has left. Pussy has become popular to the point of requiring multiple servers to host it, takes a significant portion of my time to support and is a drain on this forum due to it being one of the most popular threads that isnt actually a puppy.
Pussy will develop on its own now apart from Puppy. From now on ill be at the #pussylinux irc chat channel on freenode as its rude of me to hang out on #puppylinux, as the conversation usually turns to pussy users talking about Pussy. Pussy will be moving forums shortly and will have a spot on distrowatch that i will pay for. Its all come to the point now that i can only support one or the other and i see Pussy as the superior OS. I am not going to apollogize for Pussy's sucesss or from this point on being in competition with Puppy, 6 months is pleanty of time for Pussy to be intergrated into the Puppy lineup but not only has there been no interest im Pussy's way of solving the package management issue, im treated like a complete asshole by a select number of devs for even taking the effort to show them even tho they havent taken the time to look at it.

a new forum will be started soon, in the meantime until that is actually sorted, murga will remain the home of the pussy thread and puppylinux.info has a secondary thread. Ill update this post with info regarding forums etc. If this forum wants pussies home to be here then thats cool, it can be. If not then thats ok i completely understand. Ill update this post and let everyone know whats happening regarding the forum situation.

I bear no ill will to anyone here and there have been people in the community that have turned me from a Linux newbie to a pro. This is the #puppylinux support channel, its the best thing to have on your screen when you use Puppy. The info i learned on that channel has been a very major influence on my entire life. Alot of people there dont seem to realize just how awesome their skills are, and they are way above any RHCE or other linux qualification.Consider: those of you who have compiled your own linux do not need lessons to learn about how linux works! I know some real life linux techs, seriously they would not be able to even understand what your even saying on the channel, and i am saying this to all the regular puppy devs there. Puppy is very difficult to dev on, and this has turned you all in to extremely skillful people. If any of you actually had a conversation with a recruiter from pretty much any major firm and you where able to show them what it is you do for alot of your day, you can seriously get a job anywhere. i am meaning what im saying here. And just know that i personally am a product of what you guys have created lol.

Anyway ill see all you guys around, i bear no ill will, i just have not enough time to do pussy and puppy so ive had to drop one.

ok later ppl.
sickgut@gmail.com

edit: ive sent a message to john murga but it is in the "outbox" does that mean its been sent, will be sent or tried but failed?

Edited_times_total
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 06:29    Post_subject:  

Quote:
edit: ive sent a message to john murga but it is in the "outbox" does that mean its been sent, will be sent or tried but failed?


AFAIK and others have confirmed, It only means he has not read your PM yet. As soon as he read it the software sense that and move it to your Sent box.

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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2602
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 06:32    Post_subject:  

nooby wrote:
Quote:
edit: ive sent a message to john murga but it is in the "outbox" does that mean its been sent, will be sent or tried but failed?


AFAIK and others have confirmed, It only means he has not read your PM yet. As soon as he read it the software sense that and move it to your Sent box.


I confirm that. When he read the message it will go into sentbox in your account.

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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 3442
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 06:37    Post_subject:  

Good day Sickgut.

I mentioned you again on Whirlpool again...

but they hid the post as Spam....ha! ha!.

"""""""

I think that you should still be here on Murga.

John Biles has had issues with Teenpup....getting help.

And look at how many releases he has had....

now called Legacy.

So have no regrets....I haven't tested it either.
But I read all the posts.

Maybe it will work off usb on a Dell Studio XPS laptop.
Craptop.

::::::::::

I think that this post from >> musher0...is what started you offside.

" Frankly, in spite of the fact that this thread has 57 pages, having tried it, I think this "Pussy" brings us back 20 years graphic wise. In addition, you coudn't have done a better mockery of Puppy.

There. At least you can't fault me for not being honest.

Returning to browse some serious threads.

Tah-dah. "

http://208.109.22.214/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=595739&sid=c60714872ab93496b6422c5feb120396#595739

So don't dig in the spurs and head for the hills yet son.

You are doing good deeds...and I still like the name.

I'm sure that my old deceased cat would wave his paw with approval.

And good luck mate.
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10839
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 08:51    Post_subject:  

Hi sickgut
sorry to here you giving up, Puppy's package management system has always worked fine for me, it installs and uninstalls packages just fine, puppy is a independent distro without a major repo, the reason for this is because well we don't have the staff to compile and maintain such a vast system, could you imagine all the extra's apps that would have to be compiled if you wanted KDE & Gnome, our repro would go from around 300 to over 15,000+ and really that isn't what puppy is about, its about having a minimalistic operating system that can handle most everyday uses, puppy 3 series we had gslapt as a small addon to use the slackware repo, it wasn't totally stable but mostly worked. People come to puppy for 2 reasons, because they have either older hardware and want it run fast or they just want something simple that works, most of the time with a bit of effort. I for one have liked the ubuntu repo, I usually get most sources there, its like a one stop shop, but getting compiled apps there really is mostly for newbee's, they come with a lot of extra deps, kind of like gparted puppy static mmlibs vs Ubuntu shared libs, the Ubuntu package is around 3-4 times larger with all the same features, we get creative to reduce package sizes, where as Ubuntu anything goes, usually puppy packages are 10-300% smaller.

Sure we aren't number, but really do we want to be? all the extra pressures and reviews, do you ever read about what Zdnet have to say about Ubuntu, they hold them on a thin rope against Microsoft and apple. I would rather be left alone than scrutinized daily just because we were #1, really I've seen puppy #7 in past 2 years out of over 300 distro's and I think that pretty damn good when we are 1/5 the size of the number one. Not bad at all, Puppy is number 1 if you go by bang for the MB. Puppy still is one of the most innovative Linux operating systems ever made, Really the only draw back I've seen is that we don't support Arm based tablets and phones yet, but work is starting on it.

also don't forget Ubuntu is a multimillion dollar company with corporate offices and well puppy is made in the middle of the outback, by one person, living in minimalistic small house, using ultra slow dialup and satellite internet.

So if you want to leave this great community, feel free, but it would be better if stayed, I liked reading your input in forum, I didn't get involved with your release well because I didn't like the name.

take care
ttuuxxx

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 09:39    Post_subject:  

Quote:
I liked reading your input in forum, I didn't get involved with your release well because I didn't like the name.

take care
ttuuxxx


Then my warning very early in the pussy thread was not totally out of the blue.

I get more disturbed to read about Catroll-panel

Catroll? To a newbie that is most likely not clear name at all.

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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 09:48    Post_subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:
Hi sickgut
sorry to here you giving up, Puppy's package management system has always worked fine for me, it installs and uninstalls packages just fine, puppy is a independent distro without a major repo, the reason for this is because well we don't have the staff to compile and maintain such a vast system, could you imagine all the extra's apps that would have to be compiled if you wanted KDE & Gnome, our repro would go from around 300 to over 15,000+ and really that isn't what puppy is about, its about having a minimalistic operating system that can handle most everyday uses, puppy 3 series we had gslapt as a small addon to use the slackware repo, it wasn't totally stable but mostly worked. People come to puppy for 2 reasons, because they have either older hardware and want it run fast or they just want something simple that works, most of the time with a bit of effort. I for one have liked the ubuntu repo, I usually get most sources there, its like a one stop shop, but getting compiled apps there really is mostly for newbee's, they come with a lot of extra deps, kind of like gparted puppy static mmlibs vs Ubuntu shared libs, the Ubuntu package is around 3-4 times larger with all the same features, we get creative to reduce package sizes, where as Ubuntu anything goes, usually puppy packages are 10-300% smaller.

Sure we aren't number, but really do we want to be? all the extra pressures and reviews, do you ever read about what Zdnet have to say about Ubuntu, they hold them on a thin rope against Microsoft and apple. I would rather be left alone than scrutinized daily just because we were #1, really I've seen puppy #7 in past 2 years out of over 300 distro's and I think that pretty damn good when we are 1/5 the size of the number one. Not bad at all, Puppy is number 1 if you go by bang for the MB. Puppy still is one of the most innovative Linux operating systems ever made, Really the only draw back I've seen is that we don't support Arm based tablets and phones yet, but work is starting on it.

also don't forget Ubuntu is a multimillion dollar company with corporate offices and well puppy is made in the middle of the outback, by one person, living in minimalistic small house, using ultra slow dialup and satellite internet.

So if you want to leave this great community, feel free, but it would be better if stayed, I liked reading your input in forum, I didn't get involved with your release well because I didn't like the name.

take care
ttuuxxx


thanks ttuuxxx

i believe in strength by lack of weakness. The repo/ package thing in Puppy is what i identified as its weakness, and sought to fix it. Its impossible for the small community to compile and maintain a repo the same size as other distros. I see "leeching" off one of the more sane distros the only way. But the distro i ended up making that was initially just a demo of an idea has taken off. Its not that i dont like you guys or Puppy, its more to do with the fact that Pussy is at a critical point now, i didnt expect it to succeed but it has and now i need to either run with it or put the cat down with a .22 and ive decided to run with it. This leaves no time for Puppy stuff and Puppy is a distraction for me now, i need to do one thing properly, and that is Pussy.

i just hope people know im not leaving disgruntled, im not storming out. Im more like later ppl i gotta go do my thing, but it be nice to grab a beer sometime!!
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Bert


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 954

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 09:56    Post_subject:  

cthisbear wrote:
Good day Sickgut.
I think that you should still be here on Murga.
And good luck mate.


+1 Smile

Sickgut, I think most of us have come to appreciate your enthousiasm and ongoing willingness to communicate. I've been following your project with much interest.
Must confess I too was diappointed when trying -an earlier- version of Pussy. But I did not complain, as your product was still in alpha. But secretly this end user had hoped for better graphics and...synaptic Wink
Don't give up!
It's not Puppy or Pussy Idea

Anyway, grateful you did not call it Zebra Linux..

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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 11:08    Post_subject:  

Bert wrote:
cthisbear wrote:
Good day Sickgut.
I think that you should still be here on Murga.
And good luck mate.


+1 Smile

Sickgut, I think most of us have come to appreciate your enthousiasm and ongoing willingness to communicate. I've been following your project with much interest.
Must confess I too was diappointed when trying -an earlier- version of Pussy. But I did not complain, as your product was still in alpha. But secretly this end user had hoped for better graphics and...synaptic Wink
Don't give up!
It's not Puppy or Pussy Idea

Anyway, grateful you did not call it Zebra Linux..


hmmm apt-get install synaptic only 11mb in size, with squashfs compression maybe only 5mb or so. I think we can add synaptic to pussy no trouble, the graphics however arent being delt with right now, when we get technical stuff out of the way then we will do some themes.
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linuxbear

Joined: 18 Apr 2009
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 15:55    Post_subject:  

I have to agree with Sickgut. While I am fond of puppy, I need full-functionality access to 'buntu repos. I was excited for a while with Lupu, but I found myself wandering to Bohdi and stayed there. I am still drawn to the Puppy community and use Puppy as a rescue pendrive as well as playing with new puplets when time allows. Problem is, that this constant changing of the base OS for Puppy and the difficulty in getting the aps to work as well as full functionality on my printer keeps me going back to an OS which will competently use a .deb file.
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 16:35    Post_subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:

and really that isn't what puppy is about, its about having a minimalistic operating system that can handle most everyday uses,

getting compiled apps there really is mostly for newbee's, they come with a lot of extra deps, kind of like gparted puppy static mmlibs vs Ubuntu shared libs, the Ubuntu package is around 3-4 times larger with all the same features, we get creative to reduce package sizes, where as Ubuntu anything goes, usually puppy packages are 10-300% smaller.



I have to agree with Ttuuxxx. Puppy stops being puppy if you add a bunch of lard to it. What makes Puppy great is the attention to resource usage that only Puppy devs can achieve. Combining Puppy with other distro's packages is like combining a monastery with a carnival.

(Not that the PPM doesn't need a bit of work)
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 17:49    Post_subject:  

jemimah wrote:
ttuuxxx wrote:

and really that isn't what puppy is about, its about having a minimalistic operating system that can handle most everyday uses,

getting compiled apps there really is mostly for newbee's, they come with a lot of extra deps, kind of like gparted puppy static mmlibs vs Ubuntu shared libs, the Ubuntu package is around 3-4 times larger with all the same features, we get creative to reduce package sizes, where as Ubuntu anything goes, usually puppy packages are 10-300% smaller.



I have to agree with Ttuuxxx. Puppy stops being puppy if you add a bunch of lard to it. What makes Puppy great is the attention to resource usage that only Puppy devs can achieve. Combining Puppy with other distro's packages is like combining a monastery with a carnival.

(Not that the PPM doesn't need a bit of work)


Running apps from other distros would require having all the same resources. My preference is generally to do a fresh compile when I need something not already present...which isn't too often. I generally avoid gnome whenever possible.
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Bert


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 954

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 19:31    Post_subject:  

What a strange situation..

I agree with ttuuxxx and jemimah and also with sickgut.
There's room for both approaches.

One day I feel fundamentalist and tell my neighbours Puppy is the only way to go. And then, facing reality, I realize Debian -and derivates- have always been what the planet really needs.

Debian has grown from a long history of community effort, thousands of volunteers adding to the quality of the final OS. I like that and I also like the fact that it is stable and has given Linux a future, despite the loud and ugly growllng of its opposition, venture capitalism.

Because Debian is based in history, it has its shortcomings, but so has Puppy. Let's face it. Isn't it time to rediscuss the basic model?
Hardware has evolved, our needs have evolved. Try to imagine what you expected in 2004 and try to compare that to what you expect now!?

I'm in love with Puppy Linux because of the exuberant creativity and the unique circle of friends. But that doesn't mean the model is still right.

Saluki, for me, is a great experiment in how we can survive with sfs's, leaving the historical model intact. We'll see...

Sickgut has discovered the potency of Puppy's minimalism, but has also had the nerve to tell us about its shortcomings. In one possible perfect world Debian and Puppy people would be closely collaborating, to get to the best possible results.

Ttuuxxx and most other puppy devs put great emphasis on minimalism, trimming all possible fat. They probably have immediately foreseen the disaster resulting from installing full Debian packages into the Puppy save file. The question here is: what is to blame, the package or the puppy system?

Can we, users, be expected to accept our OS to be dependent on a handful of (coming and going) people? People who are responsible for the availability, or not, of up-to-date software, depending on their preferences and their private and professional situation? Puppy is unique, all its developers have the same Barryitis, meaning they are all pioneers, making the project totally fascinating.

But I really think sickgut deserves our respect. His analysis is so true it hurts.
My interest as a user is an OS that is friendly, intuitive, reliable and that can be run on mimimal resources. The latter was the reason I originally came to Puppy.
From what I know now, a more universally accepted and recognized package management is an essential part.

It will be interesting to see how something like Pussy will perform on a low resources system. It could very well be using less resourses, while offering better software. (Software you know, in stead of hope, will be available and just run on your system, because it has been tested in a world community.)

Anyway, there's room for everyone and I applaude sickgut for his courage.

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SouthPaws

Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 20:48    Post_subject: Re-naming
Sub_title: Suggestions...
 

I wonder what would've happened if Pussy was just renamed... Shocked

Some (more) suggestions...

pussyfoot linux/pup
puss-n-boots linux/pup
sourpuss linux/pup...

Another thought; how about a re-naming contest, whereby you stipulate your must haves... (ex. must include puss or pussy in name)
and you open it up to the community to make their suggestions... and then they vote. Wink

You just might stimulate/re-stimulate interest... who knows what that could lead to. I say give it a shot. What do you think, is it too late...? Sad

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Amgine


Joined: 21 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 20:49    Post_subject:  

Take a break, but don't go!
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