Music2Go Pup! - A Puppy for doing some music

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Smithy
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#21 Post by Smithy »

Should do I guess, might bring this pup back into familiar territory.
RSH certainly put a lot of work into that pup.
I'm still on good old .pets!
I think the concensus amongst puppyists is that sfs'sss are the way to go.

If anyone could do an Ardour3 pet, (or squash) complete with vst plugin support, and no doubt all the bleeding dependencies it will require, I will certainly give it a good thorough testing in Puppy Linux.

ciento
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#22 Post by ciento »

ardour 3 releases use a binary installer, just click and go.
Might not need pets or sfs. Puts everything in /opt

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#23 Post by Smithy »

Hi ciento, I had a think about this after reading many posts on Ardour 2 and 3, there are a lot of people out there testing Ardour.

It is advised by the devs that one shouldn't use Ardour 3 at this time to do anything that you might like to keep. That is probably cautionary, but "Warning Will Robinson, warning!"

I did notice that there are a couple of hundred plugins in the native Linux format, will have to have a look see what they are like.

I've had my fair share of crashing programmes. Hydrogen was constantly glitching on my comp, and did my nut in, and don't even go there with Windows..

And then what I wanted to achieve with this experimental ram based pup hybrid derivative.

It doesn't cause heating cpu issues as with Ardour+Studio 64, so it is pretty green I guess. Maybe the poster was running 64 tracks on a hot quad to hard drive or something..

The midi implementation kicks ass as is.

Is very flexible, Throw vst's and vstis' in there, if you don't like them, you just delete them, less hassle, more time to record and do other things in life.

There is an arpeggiator chorder plugin installed in there for a bit of trance.
(the one area where Podium was weak i.e midi transmit from a plugin).
There's even a bit of groove quantisation built in there.

It's ready to go, thanks to playdayz and everyone else who made Luci.

The linker, the most VITAL bit (Jack, wineasio, Alsa 10.24, seems solid).
Would be nice if that was all built in to a Puppy Linux with just a switch and a latency slider on the taskbar or something.

No virus protectors to get in the way :) although the one built in seems benign, root is good.

Cut and paste. Internet, email, partition saving, paint, vector design, the iso burner is great, with its cryptic comments.

Things have come a long way since Dingo! (Which was pretty good btw).

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darkcity
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#24 Post by darkcity »

Music2Go breaks winetricks but allows ApplesWorks to work :shock:

This is fairly random, but I have a portable version of AppleWorks 6,

in standard Puppy Luci 5.29 I can not get it to work (using QuickTime from winetricks or Windoze download) - 'qtmlclient.dll required' error

-see pic--

in Music2Go it works if I load QuickTime from Windoze download ; -)

--see pic--

----

However, winetricks does not work.

Code: Select all

sh-4.1# winetricks
Please install zenity if you want a graphical interface.

I tried loading zenity - but it then says it needs Glade

Code: Select all

sh-4.1# winetricks
(zenity:23866): libglade-WARNING **: could not find glade file '/usr/local/share/zenity/zenity.glade'
Installing Glade reveals a different error

Code: Select all

sh-4.1# winetricks
** (zenity:23866): WARNING **: Could not load glade file : /usr/local/share/zenity/zenity.glade
Would you be willing to list the changes made to 5.29 so I could trace the error?

----

On a different note if you list the filetypes and what programs you want them to be associated and how (default-action or right-click) I can make a pet to sort them out and add to PuppyMenu.

----

thanks for getting AppleWorks working ; -)[/img]
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darkcity
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#25 Post by darkcity »

I've made an Audio submenu including reaper and progs for LazYAudio SFS - using the category - SFS-Audio - see pic
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Audio Menu
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Smithy
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#26 Post by Smithy »

Hi darkcity,

I must have got seriously bunt out when I was putting it together!
Have done an ammended version, same download url.
Hopefully this will not break winetricks, and in fact it is running a LOT better than before, I was wondering why Podium was seizing up occasionally on the cpu at 100%.
The correct look for music2go was with the Blue Moon Icon set and Xorg High, that's the one that calms me down...

Files association pet would be aiff, wave and maybe mp3, ogg?


The only sticking point is Wavosaur,as I have discovered through testing, that it needs MFC42 dll to run. Not sure if Winetricks does this, but if that file is obtained and shoved in the Wine system 32 folder, then Wavosaur will function.
This is the only step that is required now.

Partition Saving still functions ok (spart.linux) as does Sj phone.
Still got to test the Reaper a bit more as it was slightly quirky, a few crackles going on at low latency.

Jack Control needs a bit of tweaking to match your sound card, starting with 1024 and unticking realtime, periods of 3 or 2 until you can get a latency that you are happy with, but so far the setup is encouraging. It seems to start up automatically now in the background when loading a music app. You have to run the transport if you want to run the sequencer.

At the end of the day, this is an experiment to see if it is feasible to get a little writing/playback rig together in RAM. No frills, just hardline apps that do the job. And don't crash!

I use a few pieces of gear that have a Motorola 68032 or whatever it is inside, they never crash and have been going since neolithic times!
I think they maintain and repair themselves when you go to bed.

Had a look at Ardour 3. It is 610mb. So we are talking at leat an 800mb Puppy, probably 1.6gb in reality with extras, totally defeating the cuteness and practicality of Puppy Linux, other distros can do that.
If they could stick some plugin support and MIDI in Ardour 2 that would be cool! 17mb.

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darkcity
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#27 Post by darkcity »

Wonder why Ardour 3 is so much bigger, I wonder if any slimming could be done?

What I'd like to see is an on going version of Puppy for sound. Maybe with realtime kernel - although I know some of the real time features have been merged with standard kernel.

Thanks for updating will try later :P

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Smithy
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#28 Post by Smithy »

Yes,
a realtime kernel might be interesting to try, if only to just push everything to 11!
I saw a question you were asking on this forum, but lost it in the maze of posts. It was about your MIDI.
If you have a joystick port on your comp, that is where the MIDI lives.

http://www.interfacebus.com/PC_Joy_Stick_Pinout.html

Here's some on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... Categories

There are data lines within the COM port and I think it was quite tight because it was dedicated if I remember correctly.

USB has replaced COM port midi, but apparently the timing can be a bit sloppy sometimes with usb midi.

The Apples, Roland machines and Ataris were tight for midi too!

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RSH
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#29 Post by RSH »

Hi,
I did make an ISO based on Three Headed Dog and pursuing the concept of Lazy Puppy. Except Open Shot, all LazY Puppy sfs files and its programs do work in this iso.

Talking about 800mb iso:

800mb is surely too big and therefor too much outside of the concept of puppy linux (as i do see this). I think every puppy should be as small as possible and use sfs files instead of installed applications whenever it is possible.

I like the idea of installed wine but do not like the idea of installed win-apps inside puppy. Unfortunately installed wine and gecko makes about 90mb.

Why not using the concept of LazY Puppy for msuci2go pup?

Why not using wine sfs and PortableApps? You can even run wavosaur as portable app. I do use wavosaur as portable app just by copying the installed directory of waveosaur to the PortableApps directory on usb. PortableApps finds wavosaur automatically after start.

This keeps the iso small as possible and offers you about 4 gb win software as portable app. Not all do work out of the box, but with a little work (copying some dll's like mfc42.dll into wine system32) some more will work.

Actually refining this wine and PortableApps stuff is one part of my LazY Puppy Update - i am working on.

RSH
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darkcity
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#30 Post by darkcity »

@smithy - thanks for the info on soundcard - my soundcard has no midi port but and emulate midi - haven't tried usb midi

@RSH - the portable apps sound good to avoid having a big C drive in
Puppy

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#31 Post by Smithy »

Hi RSH,

Lazy is good, but what about the concept of a barebones music pup, that only needs the things that make jack and alsa work as a starter? Maybe a realtime Luci?

I didn't put Gecko in, but not sure that Wine is 90mb?
The Green Dome pet was 21mb, wineasio pet was 19kb and jack pet was 8mb.

The biggie was all the wash and go vst plugins, setup and ready to launch,
69mb, drum machines, synth and midi tools.
So Luci was 130mb+ plugins 69mb+ wine?. The iso is about 221mb.

I did start on a barebones 431, which was promising, but the ALSA was an early one and I was thinking it would not help much.
Then I went through a few, like Racy, then suddenly that Playdayz one really kicked ass good style on the alsa, and the Wine "took" nicely!

I hear what you are saying about portable apps. In fact, all the apps are portable, 'cept for podium free (I think, but maybe that is as well).

I am removing the pup from download shortly, as it was a proof of concept thing and to sort of show how I think a Music Puppy should work.

Not through spite or anything, but I am thinking that the vst+app devs might prefer it if people went to their respective websites to download their creations.

I might have another look at LMMS, something about clip based did my head in, what about linear based, maybe it is as well, and I had a struggle looking for linux type vsti plugins, saw bristol, it looks "okay".

Wonder why Ardour 3 is so "fat"?


A lot of music people aren't programmers or mr fixits, they just want to get some sounds going without having to link things like jack to hydrogen to Ardour to jackrack, to Bristol, what the heck is all that about?
Just one decent multitracker with midi and audio editing recording built in is enough for most! Well I prefer it that way at least.

I would, like darkcity, be interested on working on a Music Pup with the community.
Maybe starting from a realtime kernel, with at least alsa 10.24 and one good DAW all linked up and ready to go, with a tasty hand selected set of plugins as a starter.

Should only be 90mb or so I reckon, then there is room to stick some nice sounds in like a decent piano, quality real drum kit and a few nice electro sounds. A good starting point for adding your own guitars and vocals.
Then pets or sfssssssssssess as options?

It's not rocket science, could be done in a couple of weeks, bish bash bosh, test, test, done! That was me being optimisic btw!

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#32 Post by darkcity »

Some random ideas 8)

---

I wonder if it would be possible to make a sound production SFS that would be compatible with Lazy and a barebones rt version of lucid? That way both camps can benefit.

So Lazy would have three Audio SFSs

Sound Production (Jack + decent digital audio workstation)
Sound Production Extra (jackrack, to Bristol)
Sound Play (VLC, Song Bird)


One problem is it looks like RT patches weren't made for 5.29's kernel (2.6.37)
https://rt.wiki.kernel.org/
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/projects/rt/

Maybe use 3.0 kernel with RT patch? lucid 3, if 5.29 three-headed-dog was lucid 2

barebone lucid thread
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=64480

If you consider LazY as a interface improve+pascal+ good SFS support

So you could choose

Lucid 3 + (LazY pup interface inc pascal) + SFSs of choice

-

Another option is it base it on QtPuppy - which is unfortunately on hold. Jack uses Qt so it makes sense in a way.

http://puppylinux.org/wikka/QtPuppy


---

(Q) Why was Racy no good for Music2go?

---


Has anyone tried QTractor (has MIDI support) or Traverso DAW?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fr ... nd_editing

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#33 Post by RSH »

Smithy wrote:I didn't put Gecko in, but not sure that Wine is 90mb?
The Green Dome pet was 21mb, wineasio pet was 19kb and jack pet was 8mb.
I have made an sfs containing foobar, exact audio copy and gecko - its size is 91mb. Gecko is about 63mb and is needed for Embedded HTML.
darkcity wrote:So Lazy would have three Audio SFSs

Sound Production (Jack + decent digital audio workstation)
Sound Production Extra (jackrack, to Bristol)
Sound Play (VLC, Song Bird)
I did try to put jack into the sfs - but failed. Jack won't run from inside the sfs. That's why jack is inside LazY Puppy. Maybe the newer Jack by using THD (newer kernel) could work - didn't try this.
darkcity wrote:Maybe use 3.0 kernel with RT patch? lucid 3, if 5.29 three-headed-dog was lucid 2
If you try to use a that new kernel you might need to use newer applications that may to be compiled first for any puppy. Example therfor is openshot which does not work in THD (THD is lucid 528 based with newer kernel).

Compiling for puppy isn't that easy to me - mostly i did fail (except two times).
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#34 Post by Smithy »

Ah, so Gecko is the big one, fortunately it wasn't needed for the music apps.

About Racy, well the reason I skipped it was a few nooby things like it went blank when I tried booting, had to research that one and finally worked out the three finger salute ctl/alt/backspace and then get the xorg working, then the alsa wasn't up to scratch for usb quirky cards, so I left Racy for the time being and moved on.

Can't even get Ardour 3 going! I ran out of Ram on the puppy.
It just laughed at the puny ram, and I laughed and told it to go on a diet.

http://qtractor.sourceforge.net/qtractor-index.html

Qtractor looks great! Missed that one, thanks for the info darkcity.

Tried loading it this morning, coming up against finding the right dependencies for it. There is a Barry K Qt4 for quirky I found, and Qtractor also needs a rubber band.so thing. Might try again, grumble, grumble etc...

Wish there was a .pet for everything it needs, such a pita looking all over for these things and I don't want to duplicate files that might already be in the pup.

A few caveats which are possibly being worked out here:

http://wwww.rncbc.org/drupal/node/357#comment-4763

There don't seem to be many LV2 "intruments" for linux at the moment at all, so vsti and vst is still the way to go for musical fun! (imo).

Festige gives horrible latency? DSSIVST seems to be good?
Vst/i support will still be over Wine apparently, no biggie, getting perfectly fine latency anyways. And as LV2 develops, that would be better as it would be native.

Some good random ideas going there darkcity!

So would you say that a realtime Kernel reduces load on the cpu, when trying to achieve very low (round trip, time it takes for data to go from the sound card input to the speaker output) latencies?
Just wondering if there are any other puppyists looking for realtime for their apps apart from sound production people.
Maybe gamers?

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#35 Post by darkcity »

gamers tend to buy hardware :P

also there is some debate over ALSA and OSS

Some gamers have said using ALSA gives delays in sound fx

Where as ALSA people say they its because ALSA hasn't be programmed properly and they mainly concentrate on Music production

i wonder if puppy arcade would benefit
http://scottjarvis.com/page105.htm

---

qtractor should would on qtpuppy - though its only in alpha-
http://www.lamiaworks.com.au/puppy_qt.html

:arrow:
So would you say that a realtime Kernel reduces load on the cpu, when trying to achieve very low (round trip, time it takes for data to go from the sound card input to the speaker output) latencies?
it gives sound processes priority, so I guess it defers rather than reduces?
https://rt.wiki.kernel.org/index.html

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#36 Post by Smithy »

Water cooled overclocking gamers yep :)
It's an art in itself I guess.


Will have a look at QT Puppy, probably hasn't got updated ALSA though?

Only the Three Headed Dog is up to scratch on ALSA as far as I know, and I went through a lot of 'em.

Just found this:

http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/sound/

Might be some bits and pieces that will get Qtractor up for a good test.
Might be the candidate for a decent Puppy workstation sfsssssssssss.
Or Pet.

Have you ever tried Qtractor?

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darkcity
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#37 Post by darkcity »

I'm yet to try QTractor - just trying different things.

Image

Treading some similar ground, with someone called synth
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=39741

Image

More on the OSS vs ALSA debate-
Open Sound Sytem 4.0 (OSS) Anyone tried it with puppy ?
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=18722

Image :arrow: Image :arrow: Image

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RSH
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Music2Go Pup! - A Puppy for doing some music

#38 Post by RSH »

Hi, Musicians (are you?)

I have made a portable running version of "Zynewave Podium Free". It runs from USB Stick into Wine without installing it. But i don't know anything about how to use this one program and do not have any examples to improve it (sometimes programs run but didn't work at all).

Would somebody please post an example file for "Zynewave Podium Free"?

I would like to improve its functions and then build a real PortableApp of "Zynewave Podium Free".

Thanks

RSH

Edit:
Smithy wrote:Ah, so Gecko is the big one, fortunately it wasn't needed for the music apps.
Maybe not for the music apps, but sometimes for the documentation files. They often use embedded HTML - or they call the Internet Explorer which needs embedded HTML.
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#39 Post by Smithy »

Well here is a pretty rough and ready pod file using midi instruments, and based on a famous Teutonic Tune lol.

http://www.smokey01.com/Smithy/Model One.pod

Here's how it will sound in music2go pup:

http://www.smokey01.com/Smithy/Model One.mp3

I am still getting my head round Podium, but in runs better in the music2go pup than it does on Windows, didn't crash once, and the audio didn't glitch once! That is a testament to linux for sure.

If you are trying to make a portable app out of Podium you will have to find the colour schemes (one of which I slaved over to get it to look right).
Think they are in wine data application folders.

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#40 Post by Smithy »

Ok, this is the final music2go, same url as the first page.

Solid and stable now, Jack working good in both rt mode and..erm not rt mode.
Couldn't get on with Timidity at all so it was abandoned for Synthfont.
Seems like a very good program.

Darkcity's Ardour 2 compile with oscilloscopes and plenty of effects is in there, and working great.

Before using, it is best to get these two downloads and install:

The first one is Visual C++ 4.5mb and the reason it is needed is for jesokola sampler/sf2 synth, you can use it without, but any tracks that use jesokola will close with an angry message.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download ... px?id=5555

The second one is mfc42.dll and you just have to unzip and drop in wine/system 32 folder. 900kb. Click on download Zip File not DLL Fixer.

http://www.dll-files.com/dllindex/dll-files.shtml?mfc42

I would say that this is a pretty solid base for testing the jack latency, and have included a couple of tracks in podium, Electro and Human, which gradually one could add more tracks to until jack overloads!

The places to go for setting up soundcard(s) are wineconfig, and the speaker tray in retrovol hw0, hw1 etc. Failing that ALSA wizard and Multiple Wizard.
I find that just a restart of x helps after configuring.

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