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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Do Derivative Developers have a right to complain?
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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1401
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2012, 08:59    Post subject:  Do Derivative Developers have a right to complain?
Subject description: No one forced you to create it, don't complain if no one wants to help you develop it!.
 

Hello Everyone,
Over the last few years I've watched and read posts as a forum member decides to create a derivative like I have with TEENpup and now Legacy OS.

They feel excited about bringing something new to Puppy users and wait as forum members download and test their creation.

As the positive comments are posted (Normally by the same users who have tested previous Derivatives), this forum member thinks "I'm the one who has finally created what Puppy users have been waiting for"!

As the days pass comments like "Your Derivative is what I've been looking for and would be perfect if it had this or that".

Now the Derivative User begins to add these packages and finds they need help and thinks "I'll ask for help from the more knowledgeable forum members including the team working on the next Official Puppy release as forum members have told me my Derivative is exactly what they've been waiting for"

All excited the Derivative user waits and waits with little or no interest at all.

Still the requests for this or that comes in until interest dries up or another forum member releases their Derivative and the cycle begins again.

Now to the reason I'm posting this.

As the developer of the Derivative "Legacy OS" I've experienced the above over the years in one form or another. When you have a user all excited about your derivative and you spend hours adding an application they've requested only to read a forum post a few days later from the same user praising another derivative claiming it's the only version their using making requests for the same application you've wasted hours on, it can get you down.

So to all current and future Derivative creators I post this question:

Do Derivative Developers have a right to complain if others including the Official Puppy Team don't offer them support and help with their Derivative!

My answer is "NO!" as a Derivative Developer I alone decided to create Legacy OS. I can't expect or demand others on the forum help me. Over the years I've also asked for help with little or no response.

I've learn to ask for little things so the forum member who has responded didn't feel pressured and doesn't realize that the information they supplied helped as much as it did.

Also other Linux forums have supplied answered when this forum wouldn't or couldn't.

Finally if your sitting there thinking about creating the ultimate Puppy Derivative do it expected nothing in return. No one here owes you anything in return.

Your Reward? The knowledge and satisfaction you gain along the journey.

_________________
Legacy OS 2.1 LTS Released! Install me on a new! EXT2 Partition with 500Mb of swap and I'll be happy. Razz
Legacy OS 4 Released! Install to newer legacy hardware / early EeePC's Very Happy

Last edited by john biles on Thu 16 Feb 2012, 23:21; edited 1 time in total
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2012, 11:12    Post subject:  

Should Derivative Developers have the right to expect praise and help?
No! But when they get praise or critics then see it as a help for to improve Smile

Just kidding. I thought the title wanted us to help you.
That you actually needed our help to decide on if you had
the right to complain about us? But if I get your text you did not
need our help at all? You rather wanted to teach us something
or give a friendly good advice.

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not an ideal solution though
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Colonel Panic


Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 1502

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2012, 14:17    Post subject:  

That's a good post John.

I hope it's understood by developers of puplets I test out and comment on here that if I find anything lacking in their puplet, or something doesn't work as well as it should, anything I say is in the context of the fact that I'm using a ten year old machine and I'm therefore enormously grateful to still be able to use it to get online and surf the Internet, use office apps, play the odd game etc. at all.

I ought really to say that every time I post, but I suspect people would soon get tired of reading it. Puppy devs and puplet creators, you all deserve a big clap just for stepping up to the plate and having a go, never mind if it all actually works out.

And that includes you btw John, you've done a fine job over the years with Teenpup and now Legacy. Smile

_________________
Stone Pentium IV (2.4 GHz), 2 GB of RAM, 160 GB hard drive running Puppy Carolina 1.2, Puppy EmSee v2.1, Puppy 4.31 Workhorse, Legacy OS2 LTS and Puppy Midnight Sun 003.
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jim3630


Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 792
Location: Northern Nevada

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2012, 15:09    Post subject:  

CP
1+. well said. Puppy devs deserve a well done even when the thing doesn't work. others often pick it up from there and run with it.

testers usually post their hardware and when something doesn't work out savvy devs figure it out. seen that happen quite often.

in the same vein users, testers have no right to complain about free software, the hard work of someone else.

of course, informing devs something does not work is another matter. most devs welcome that sort of thing and i am not talking about the usual sort of critique of one software or another.

what i am talking about is whining, out right expressions of anger, bitterness or blaming the devs in a public forum about their work because something does not work on their particular hardware or that it does not include their favorite program.

i can only guess the reason some devs do not return emails, engage forum members, or post remarks about the experience of testers is too much of the above has occurred. burn out can happen for many reasons.

the devs need community support. not just testers of their work but to encourage their efforts.
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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1401
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2012, 19:31    Post subject:  

Hello nooby,

Quote:
But if I get your text you did not need our help at all? You rather wanted to teach us something or give a friendly good advice.


nooby, correct, I only mentioned Legacy OS because as a long term developer have some insight in to what a Derivative Creator should expect.

This post wasn't, isn't asking for help with Legacy OS development. I'm not looking or expecting help from forum members especially those who are part of the Official Puppy Team.

Puppy can only improve / advance if these developers can concentrate full time on the official releases. Derivative Creators need to understand this.

When I decided to create TEENpup, I privately messaged Barry K to see if it was OK to do so. Over time the focus of the Derivative evolved from a Distro for teenagers to saving old computers by offering the largest collection of useful apps I could fit on one CD.

I alone decided to begin this project and have come to the conclusion I alone are responsible to work on it, release it and if it finds a home on someones old PC Great! If not no worries. I can't expect anyone to use it because I spent my time creating it. The developing, testing, stuff ups are all part of a wonderful journey.

Derivative Developers Focus on your project, search for answers all over the net not just in this forum, the knowledge you gain doing so will bring rewards you never expected. Enjoy the journey like I have, it's worth it.

_________________
Legacy OS 2.1 LTS Released! Install me on a new! EXT2 Partition with 500Mb of swap and I'll be happy. Razz
Legacy OS 4 Released! Install to newer legacy hardware / early EeePC's Very Happy
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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1401
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb 2012, 23:35    Post subject:  

Hello Everyone,
I expected more discussion on this subject. May be I titled it wrong?

This post isn't about me or Legacy OS, I'm just interested in what forum members think about Derivatives and the expectations their developers have from other forum members.

May be you think forum members should help!

May be you're sick of new Derivative being released weekly?

May be I should leave the forum as well! LOL!! (I have no plans to leave)

_________________
Legacy OS 2.1 LTS Released! Install me on a new! EXT2 Partition with 500Mb of swap and I'll be happy. Razz
Legacy OS 4 Released! Install to newer legacy hardware / early EeePC's Very Happy
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darkcity


Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2435
Location: near here

PostPosted: Fri 17 Feb 2012, 18:26    Post subject:  

@John

I agree with what you say about the journey - that is the important part. This is often the case when you work voluntarily.

Realistically Puppy has got me back into computing at the nuts ad bolts level - something I'd left for about ten years after Acorn went defunct.

I'd tried various Linux distro's before, but Pup made it easy.

As well as being small, quick and easy to use - Puppy's other advantage is that it makes the Linux system easier to learn.

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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1401
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri 17 Feb 2012, 18:44    Post subject:  

Hello darkcity,
I too love the way I can poke around the system mod this, delete that, destroy my whole system if I want and have. Only Puppy gives a user this freedom. Wink

_________________
Legacy OS 2.1 LTS Released! Install me on a new! EXT2 Partition with 500Mb of swap and I'll be happy. Razz
Legacy OS 4 Released! Install to newer legacy hardware / early EeePC's Very Happy
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Lothar


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat 18 Feb 2012, 20:48    Post subject:  

EDIT: Just kidding, John!
Last edited by Lothar on Sat 18 Feb 2012, 22:28; edited 4 times in total
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Eathray

Joined: 06 Sep 2009
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Sat 18 Feb 2012, 21:02    Post subject:  

Lothar wrote:
"Teenpup" hasn't been relevant since 2003. (Stupid name too, btw. Good that you changed it.)

But you do it as a hobby, so carry on.


I'm certain this qualifies as the helpful feedback every developer longs for.

Eathray
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Lothar


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sat 18 Feb 2012, 22:01    Post subject:  

Ha! But John Biles can't complain, you see, because "no-one forced him to develop it".

That's what this whole thread is about, remember. Laughing
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sat 18 Feb 2012, 22:58    Post subject:  

Quote:
Enjoy the journey like I have, it's worth it.


You are very focused John. Cool

I created a whole sparkle of Linux Tmxxines (Puppy remaster) as I need them and as a courtesy upload. I provide no support or updates.
http://puppylinux.dreamhosters.com/ce_creation/DistroCreate.html

Twinkle was the last Linux tmxxine
http://tmxxine.com/twinkle/setup.html

Remastering is now a lot easier.

I remember when MU created Muppy around the time of Puppy 2.
It was radically different, aprox. 350MB and very comprehensive.
There was a lot of learning involved. In many ways it was two years (at least) ahead of its time.

I know the woof2 system creates a commonality and base that can be seen in a variety of our recent Puppys: Wary, Racy, Lucid and Slacko.

I can not yet use woof2 - but then I needed several goes with remastering and that is now very simple.

If I work it out I may create Linux tmxxine 'Beam'

The learning and computing empowerment is really the whole of the journey. Quite a ride . . . Smile

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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1401
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun 19 Feb 2012, 09:25    Post subject:  

Hello Lothar,
What a ripper!! Insult all you want I agree "no one forced me to make the super 2003 out dated TEENpup" and I know your going to say it next post so I'll beat you to it "Legacy OS sucks also".

Anyone who puts something in the public domain has to expect the knockers as well as those who can find a use for it.

I love any feedback I get be it good or bad.

Introducing "Lotharpup" what it does only God knows LOL!

_________________
Legacy OS 2.1 LTS Released! Install me on a new! EXT2 Partition with 500Mb of swap and I'll be happy. Razz
Legacy OS 4 Released! Install to newer legacy hardware / early EeePC's Very Happy
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pemasu


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 5463
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sun 19 Feb 2012, 09:54    Post subject:  

Creating several puplets ie derivatives is a journey itself. Compile a kernel, compile apps and slowly learn to understand scripts inside Puppy and also to recognize something missing is the second volume in this journey. To get feedback....testers....users....and at last involvement from the others....is something which seems to happen or then not....There are now so many development threads that only those most enthusiathic Puppy ppl has energy to follow all these paths. I think this is enrichment...others feel it is waste of effort...pick your side as you want.

I have noticed that puplet builder and coders have relationship. Puplet builder creates updated build and coders get working distro which has their products and also updates included. Coders also poke inside the hood and find issues which mere gui user dont notice. It happens all the time.

I think this is homeostatic cycle of the Puppy evolution. I like it....

Oh yeah, the question....answer is....YES.
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Lothar


Joined: 02 Jun 2011
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun 19 Feb 2012, 09:57    Post subject:  

[quote="john biles"]Hello Lothar,
What a ripper!! Insult all you want I agree "no one forced me to make the super 2003 out dated TEENpup" and I know your going to say it next post so I'll beat you to it "Legacy OS sucks also".
[quote]

Now John, I wouldn't do that. Making a point, is all.
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