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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Additional Software (PETs, n' stuff) » Desktop
"Personalize Settings" Shinobar and Barry <Issues Remain>
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4235
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 19:10    Post subject:  "Personalize Settings" Shinobar and Barry <Issues Remain>  

There is a need for each FirstRUN developer to review their FirstRUN operation for this issue.
______________________________________________

Description
First
When Puppy starts prior to desktop, LAN services are started where most of the PCs will request and get IP service from a DHCP host. When this is occurring the randomly selected hostname will be used and it will get registered in the device which delivers DHCP services, after which that hostname will be cascaded over the LAN. The IP address is assigned to the PC with a leased-term. This term is set by some LAN administrator or is defaulted anywhere from 1-hour to 1 year depending on DHCP servers. The random name that was initially given. is important to getting the PC initially on the LAN prior to desktop. The important thing to remember is that this randomly assigned hostname is being done prior to Puppy desktop to avoid LAN issues.

Next
When the PC finally arrives at desktop, a localization screen pups-up. This is a very important screen. It is entitled "Personalize Settings". Every user can, or rather should, adjust all localization settings. appropriately. Each person should select a "meaningful" hostname which identifies this PC. (the obvious reason for doing this is that when you see this name from any other LAN device, one will instantly know which PC this is by the hostname the user assigns). The name anyone assign intends to be your permanent name pf this PC. Puppy will rightfully update all of its internal tables upon FirstRUN localization completion. The important thing to remember here is that the Puppy PC hostname is now a meaningful name assigned by the user (this is usually a name the user can remember or identify when he see it from another LAN device)

After FirstRUN is completed (user clicks OK), all internal Linux tables are set appropriately for anything internal to this PUP's use.

The Problem
But, I think everyone, now, sees the problem:
  1. Initial boot assisted by giving a random hostname to get the PC on the air and registered it with the LAN
  2. FirstRUN assisted by giving a "meaningful" hostname to this PC, but DID NOT register it with the LAN
Yes, the LAN devices are now out-of-sync with the running PUPPY because they have registered the booted hostname....not the current hostname. Thus, we need a correctional....and ths is where FirstRUN can help. When a user selects/changes the hostname via FirstRUN, the LAN connection should be dropped and restarted. This allows the LAN's DHCP server to register the new hostname when it issues a new lease to the Puppy PC, set the LAN's tables reflecting the correct hostname of the Puppy PC, while allowing the new registration to be cascaded to all devices on the LAN.

The need here is to have the LAN have a consistent reflection of the information whiich is internal with the Puppy PC, itself.

Hope this helps.

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Last edited by gcmartin on Mon 24 Sep 2012, 20:31; edited 2 times in total
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shinobar


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Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 22:16    Post subject: Syncing hostname  

gcmartin wrote:
the LAN devices are now out-of-sync with the running PUPPY because they have registered the booted hostname....not the current hostname.

And then, what problem occurs?

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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Sat 21 Apr 2012, 13:41    Post subject: Re: Syncing hostname  

shinobar wrote:
gcmartin wrote:
the LAN devices are now out-of-sync with the running PUPPY because they have registered the booted hostname....not the current hostname.

And then, what problem occurs?
Any LAN service on any "other than Puppy" PC that uses router's referenced information see the hostname for that MAC address as the "prior hostname". What you want is the router's table (and all LAN devices to have a "consistent" MAC+IP+addr_hostname combination at all times on your LAN. By standards, Its the PC's job to inform the LAN with its proper IDs (these standards have been in place for almost 30 years).

That's why this is important. So that why it would be proper for Puppy to causes a LAN "re-registration of its "vitals" at the time when the desktop user (root) has authorized a change via FirstRUN.

Hope this helps

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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Sat 21 Apr 2012, 13:58    Post subject:  

you asked for an example: Here's one.

I go in to do a demo of Puppy. I am told to plug the PC on the LAN and the admin has told me to use provide them the MAC address. They call somewhere central and I am instructed to set my hostname to Guest-Demo. At this point my Puppy PC has been running for about 10 minutes. And I have an DHCP issued IP address. I open FirstRUN and change the hostname to Guest-Demo as instructed.

My PC cannot route and cannot go anywhere for internet services.

Their network Personnel cannot figure the problem. Then one-hour later it suddenly opens up.

Know why??? Think.....the DHCP lease expired and the Puppy PC had to re-register. At this time of registration, the correct information is registered, replacing the expired information.

This is just one example, for I'm sure, there are other LAN issues that could be avoided, should Puppy do its proper on the LAN. I also understand that EVERY network does NOT got this far in determining-identifying "what's on their LAN', but, our concerns should be on complying with LAN standard as all OSs should. Thus, even though its a minor issue (not necessarily an OS bug), this would be an important items for addressing. Best of breed.

Here to help

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rcrsn51


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PostPosted: Sat 21 Apr 2012, 15:42    Post subject:  

I wonder how this situation would have been handled with a Windows or other Linux machine. I expect that after the computer name/ host name was changed, you would need to reboot the machine.
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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Apr 2012, 16:10    Post subject:  

I have no experience with LAN , but can't dhcpd not being restarted by

/etc/init.d/START_SCRIPT_dhcpd.sh stop
sleep 5
/etc/init.d/START_SCRIPT_dhcpd.sh start

?

Only needed to reboot for installing newer alsa kernel sound drivers once .
This reboot thingy is so seldom needed on my side .
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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Mon 23 Apr 2012, 13:46    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
I wonder how this situation would have been handled with a Windows or other Linux machine. I expect that after the computer name/ host name was changed, you would need to reboot the machine.
Yes Rcrsn51.

Even though the Microsoft message indicates this (same message from the Win95 days), you have not had to reboot MS PCs for over a decade when the change is made.

But, we're Puppy Linux...NOT M$. This is detectable in FirstRUN processing. Thus, can be simply handled here.

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L18L

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr 2012, 03:39    Post subject:  

gcmartin wrote:
...But, we're Puppy Linux...NOT M$. This is detectable in FirstRUN processing. Thus, can be simply handled here.

.. and the simplest is a reboot, does not occur very often.
And you can demonstrate how fast a reboot is Cool
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shinobar


Joined: 28 May 2009
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr 2012, 04:03    Post subject: hostna,e problem  

gcmartin wrote:
I am told to plug the PC on the LAN and the admin has told me to use provide them the MAC address. They call somewhere central and I am instructed to set my hostname to Guest-Demo. At this point my Puppy PC has been running for about 10 minutes. And I have an DHCP issued IP address. I open FirstRUN and change the hostname to Guest-Demo as instructed.
My PC cannot route and cannot go anywhere for internet services.

Seems not general case. I guess general case is the IP is bound with the MAC address.

BTW, i am managing my home LAN by myself, and the hostname is provided from the DHCP server refering the MAC address. Other distro sets their hosname as the DHCP server provides. But the Puppy does not. Sad

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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr 2012, 15:33    Post subject: Re: hostna,e problem  

shinobar wrote:

Seems not general case. I guess general case is the IP is bound with the MAC address.

BTW, i am managing my home LAN by myself, and the hostname is provided from the DHCP server referring the MAC address. Other distro sets their hostname as the DHCP server provides. But the Puppy does not. Sad
What router are you using? (Model and mfg., please.)

This is NOT a typical home router. They don't afford that feature to users.

The usual behavior is that the DHCP exchange will set the router's tables. The MAC and hostname come from the PC, itself and the IP address is managed the router.

It you tell me which router you are using, I will show you how there is NO need to do that. For the individual PC is designed to provide its end of the equation.. Imagine when one desktop PC dies and is replaced with a new PC. Say, for example, the PC's hostname was "Next2TV". Most people will set the old name in the new PC and its name would correctly reflect its mission/use/user/etc. Only a couple of us, will make changes in our router for this kind of need, especially, since the DHCP protocol is designed to handle this with the PC's DHCP exchange.

There is nothing wrong with what you are doing, as it is an administrator's responsibility to manage his network with any tools he feels appropriate.

Again, which router are you using for DHCP management?

Edited: @Shinobar see PM

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Last edited by gcmartin on Tue 24 Apr 2012, 16:01; edited 4 times in total
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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr 2012, 15:44    Post subject:  

L18L wrote:
gcmartin wrote:
...But, we're Puppy Linux...NOT M$. This is detectable in FirstRUN processing. Thus, can be simply handled here.

.. and the simplest is a reboot, does not occur very often.
And you can demonstrate how fast a reboot is Cool
My Live media boots are taking longer than a Microsoft boot to desktop. Puppy LIve media boots with save-sessions are even longer especially if you have a partitioned HDD on a laptop.

Reboots in LInux is typically not needed.. And, I know of NO LINUX/UNIX distro I have ever used which demands a reboot on a hostname change. Heck, I have even done this with a Microsoft PC since their introduction of Win2K

Puppy is certainly capable of handling this, without a reboot. This discussion is whether the developers of FirstRUN are willing to address this, or whether someone should address it in a different manner. Even though this is NOT to be considered a bug, it is a correctable behavior. This is why the understanding of the need is being presented here.

Hope this helps

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rcrsn51


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr 2012, 17:18    Post subject:  

gcmartin wrote:
Even though the Microsoft message indicates this (same message from the Win95 days), you have not had to reboot MS PCs for over a decade when the change is made.

I tested this with Puppy and an XP machine.

1. From Puppy, I used both nmblookup and nbtscan to find the XP machine. It replied with its name.

2. I then changed the name of the XP machine, but did NOT reboot., in spite of two messages to do so.

3. I checked again from Puppy. XP continued to show its old name.

4. I rebooted the XP machine.

5. I checked again from Puppy. The new XP name immediately appeared.

Quote:
And, I know of NO LINUX/UNIX distro I have ever used which demands a reboot on a hostname change.

I don't have an Ubuntu machine running a server to test this, but the documentation is unanimous on how to change the hostname.

1. Manually update /etc/hostname.

2. Manually update /etc/hosts.

3. Either reboot the machine or manually run a script.
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shinobar


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PostPosted: Tue 24 Apr 2012, 23:33    Post subject: Re: hostna,e problem  

gcmartin wrote:
which router are you using for DHCP management?

I have DHCP server and DNS server configured by my self running under Vine Linux.
Maybe usual routers on the market also have the DHCP server running under Linux or similar ones, i guess.

As rcrsn51 tested, the hostname change does not affect to get IP from the DHCP server and no problem with internet access, but the problem is name resolving in the local network.

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01micko


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PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2012, 06:46    Post subject:  

@gcmartin

What happens if you right click the network icon in the tray and select "disconnect from network", then wait a few seconds and reconnect using the same procedure but "reconnect to network" should be shown..??

If that doesn't solve your issue, what about disconnecting as mentioned above and reconnecting with either SNS or net_wizard?

I'd be interested to see the results of both.

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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Thu 26 Apr 2012, 17:48    Post subject: Re: hostna,e problem  

shinobar wrote:
... the hostname change does not affect to get IP from the DHCP server and no problem with internet access, but the problem is name resolving in the local network.
This is half-true on "some" business networks just as I shared.

I NEVER indicated a problem with acquiring an IP.

And YES, the problem is PC registration with the most current information for router and LAN tables. And, as I share, it appears that the most logical place is when FirstRUN detects the change. For, at this point, there is no or little to no network impact in a IP re-request from DHCP server.

Thanks for understanding
Code:
P.S. I haven't used VINES in many years. But, I am aware of its power and I am aware of your use of a PC to do what most all internet users use. Vines is a good selection. But, as u know most wouldn't be willing to make that kind of investment in learning Vines to achieve a firewall-routing-LAN Management PC.

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