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 Forum index » House Training » Bugs ( Submit bugs )
Pudd doesn't work as advertised to backup a flash drive
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B.K. Johnson

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Fri 05 Aug 2011, 11:38    Post subject:  Pudd doesn't work as advertised to backup a flash drive  

When using Pudd to back up a flash drive to a file, one screen tells me that both the source and destination should be unmounted. Later, another screen cautions me to make sure that the mounted partition where the destination file will reside has sufficient space to accommodate the source. Of course, if the device is unmounted, one cannot access/navigate to any directories below the root. Pudd goes through its paces, tells you the backup was successful but in fact no file is produced.

Read my ordeal in the attachment.

B. K. Johnson
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 5493
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Mon 08 Aug 2011, 02:01    Post subject:  

I tried it in Luci268.
Worked for me.

About mounted and unmounted partitions
The partition you are copying has to be unmounted to make sure it is not in use by something.
The location to copy too has to be mounted so it can be written too.

Before you run Pudd.
Unmount what you are going to copy.
Mount the destination.

By this image, you need to copy to /mnt/sdc1 or / or /mnt/home

If sda1 is the partition you are running Puppy from.
Pudd probably did make a copy. You told it to put it on /mnt/sda1
/mnt/sda1 is top layer of the partition. The only way to see it is.
In Rox-filer file manager
You would need to navigate to /mnt/sda1 to see it
see example image.
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sda3.jpg

dd_final_check.jpg
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dd_final_check.jpg


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B.K. Johnson

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sat 19 May 2012, 13:19    Post subject: Pudd doesn't work as advertised to backup a flash drive
Subject description: Pudd
 

bigpup
Thanks for your reply which I missed but the need has resurfaced so I am revisiting the matter again. Let me explain my particular circumstance.


I do not have a CDROM drive. I boot a frugal install from a flash drive. So, after booting the flash drive is mounted and should not be removed nor unmounted. I want to copy the flash drive as a backup but Pudd needs both the source and destination drives to be unmounted.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 5493
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 20 May 2012, 01:49    Post subject:  

Quote:
Pudd needs both the source and destination drives to be unmounted.

This is true if the source drive is also the destination drive.
Example:
Making copy of a partition on the drive and putting the copy file on that same drive.

Otherwise:
source unmounted.
destination mounted.

Only way I know to use this program, to copy a USB drive, is to be running Puppy from some other device.

If you can not run Puppy from a frugal or full install on the hard drive.
Maybe run Puppy from another USB drive and then plug in the USB drive, you want to backup, but do not mount it. It could then be copied to another device.
If you have more than one USB port and several USB drives or other devices.
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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3982
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Sun 20 May 2012, 11:20    Post subject:  

It is a little errorlike to dd something that gets updated (a lot) .

Hmm , i would make a second normal partition on the usb (4GB=2/2GB) and use rsync or cp -a command to copy to second partition .

Don't know if Pbackup could do such. I rely more to the cli .

Then i would dd the second partition to the other usb-pen-drive

dd if=/dev/sdb2 of=/dev/sdc1
which would need to run gparted first to create /dev/sdc1 partition

and simply
dd if=/dev/sdb of=/dev/sdc bs=1 count=512

to clone the Master boot record there .


Otherwise would need to boot pfix=ram and dd the whole USB . Should not be mounted then, if you have some 320 MB RaMemory .

The problem is the save-file (PUPMODE=13) or installed to whole USB-partition which would get synced by snapmergepyppy & pup_event_frontend_d scripts .

*

Alternatively :
You could try to stop pup_event_frontend_d by checking the right boxes in

System > System Schedule > Puppy Event Manager >
TAB:Save Session > Save-Interval
TAB:Activate > uncheck everything to make it quitting shortly after launched by xwin & .xinitrc

( Restart X )

(so Pup should just get updated from Ram into the Save-file at shutdown .)

and dd manually . Let us know your experience ( failure/crash/ok ) .
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B.K. Johnson

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012, 14:19    Post subject:  

bigpup

B.K. Johnson wrote:

Quote:
Pudd needs both the source and destination drives to be unmounted.

You replied:
Quote:

This is true if the source drive is also the destination drive.

Of course, if doing a drive to drive copy.

My recollection of the puppy documentation is that both source and destination drives should be unmounted for a drive to drive copy (separate drives), but I'll bow to your superior Linux knowledge of dd Smile .

What you red-marked is about partitions. So,assume a drive /sda with 2 partitions and I want to do a partition to partition copy, would one partition, /sda1 be the source partition (unmounted) and /sda2 the destination partition, mounted? Or should /sda2 be unmounted?

You recommended:
Quote:

Making copy of a partition on the drive and putting the copy file on that same drive.

Not an option. There isn't sufficient space left on this 4GB drive with 7 puppies. In any case, I would want to clone the partition, not create an image file of the partition.

Quote:
Maybe run Puppy from another USB drive and then plug in the USB drive, you want to backup, but do not mount it. It could then be copied to another device.
./
./
If you have more than one USB port and several USB drives or other devices.

Have 3 ports . The scenario required 3 flash drives; I had 2. Bought a 4GB but the space on it was marginally less that the 4GB source so have temporarily abandoned my original objective of drive to drive copy (cloning). For now, drive to image file copy as illustrated in your earlier post will have to suffice.

In essence, it seems to me that what one needs to do when using pudd can be summarized this way: Please let me know if the chart has any error(s)

[img]puddtbl.png[/img]
.Disclaimer: Subject to change.

Pudd is puppy's version of dd. I haven't reason yet to do the reverse, i.e. Image file to drive or partition, so don't know if the screen(s) state whether the partition or drive space must be at least that of the uncompressed image and what ramifications if any should the destination drive/partition be larger. Googling for info on dd, I found one post on a website that warned:
If you duplicate a smaller partition to a larger one, using dd, the larger one will now be formatted the same as the smaller one. And there will be no space left on the drive. The way around this is to use rsync.

Does puppy?

Karl Godt
Appreciate your response, but as a newbie, I found the instructions above my level, so as you can see from above, I opted for what I think would be the easiest solution for me,

B.K. Johnson
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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3982
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Sat 26 May 2012, 18:50    Post subject:  

The chart seems OK , B.K. !

Of course cloning 4gb /dev/sdb to 8gb /dev/sdc
will create the partitions of sdb on sdc .

There would be 4gb lost,
but i think gparted would be able to
manipulate the new partition(s)
and the unused 4gb of the 8gb pen drive ,
plus creating a new partition table
in the MBR of the destination drive .
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B.K. Johnson

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 11:56    Post subject: Pudd doesn't work as advertised to backup a flash drive  

Karl Godt

Yeah. Could do that. I'll look into it. Another option would be to use gparted to create 2 partitions on the 8gig before reversing the process. I would make one partition slightly larger than the 4 GB (I know the size) and the other the remainder. The advantage of your approach is that more puppies can be easily added.

B.K.
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B.K. Johnson

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Sun 27 May 2012, 12:05    Post subject: Pudd doesn't work as advertised to backup a flash drive  

As suggested by bigpup, I installed a single pup on a new 4GB flash drive and bought another 4 GB to clone the multiboot drive. Attached is a step by step of my adventure complete with screenshots. Some of bigpup's screenshots are duplicated.
pudd_cloning_&_imaging_SxS.zip
Description  Step by Step attempt cloning then imaging bootable flash drive.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 5493
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Tue 29 May 2012, 00:30    Post subject:  

B.K. Johnson,

Excellent chart you made. Sure would be useful in the Pudd help.
As you have determined, this mount, unmount, is dependent on what you are trying to do with Pudd.

Only thing to add is the mount state is based on what Pmount says or the drive icons on the desktop indicate. Pudd goes by that indication to determine mounted or unmounted.
(There are other ways to mount, besides the way these programs indicate).
Quote:
When using Pudd to back up a flash drive to a file

In your first post, this is what you indicated you where trying to do.
I was trying to clear up the confusion about why the destination for the file had to be mounted.

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I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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B.K. Johnson

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Tue 29 May 2012, 22:37    Post subject: Pudd doesn't work as advertised to backup a flash drive  

bigpup wrote:

Quote:
Excellent chart you made. Sure would be useful in the Pudd help.


Glad you liked it. Thanks for the compliment. Once I unraveled the circumstances when source and destination should be mounted/unmounted, I was compelled to do the chart. I even started to modify Smokey01's PH101-001.pet for lupu, unfortunately I lost those changes with a power outage and have not got back to it yet. With your encouragement I will, but it is unfortunate that PH101 seems designed for lupu only. I am assuming it is not compatible with other puppies based on smokey01's "designed for Lupu-525" tag.

Quote:
Only thing to add is the mount state is based on what Pmount says or the drive icons on the desktop indicate. Pudd goes by that indication to determine mounted or unmounted.


If by state you mean PUPMODE XX, I don't know enough to make the addition. I could add a row with text that states: Your puppy drive icons indicate the mount state of your drives. In fact, I will do that.

B.K. wrote:
Quote:
When using Pudd to back up a flash drive to a file


bigpup wrote
Quote:
In your first post, this is what you indicated you where trying to do.
I was trying to clear up the confusion about why the destination for the file had to be mounted.


I did indeed. Was confused by the docs Embarassed . All's well now.


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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 5493
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Wed 30 May 2012, 00:24    Post subject:  

The Smokey01's PH101-001.pet for lupu was made, by Smokey01, when we had nothing like it for Puppy. At the time, Lucid Puppy (Lupu) was the hot Puppy in development, so he made it for Lucid Puppy.
It is based on the menu and programs that Lucid Puppy had.
This was a big amount of work for Smokey01 (something about wife was going to leave him if he kept working on it and taking up all his time).
For the most part, it has a lot of info that would carry over to other versions of Puppy, but would need to be tweaked for each one.
Puppy being all volunteer work force, only need someone willing to take on the task.
Do I hear a volunteer?

Quote:
I could add a row with text that states: Your puppy drive icons indicate the mount state of your drives. In fact, I will do that.

Yes, that would be a nice addition.

I think Barry was the one that originally made Pudd, so I will make a post to his blog about your chart. He may use it to update the Pudd help htm.
http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02851

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I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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drongo


Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 354
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed 30 May 2012, 03:41    Post subject: Keep it simple  

Doesn't the table amount to "image files must be mounted - evrything else must be unmounted"?

Or have I missed something?
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B.K. Johnson

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Wed 30 May 2012, 10:34    Post subject: Pudd doesn't work as advertised to backup a flash drive  

drongo

Quote:
Or have I missed something?


Yes, you did. The statement is true only for the Source drive column. In the destination drive column, that is not so. For cloning drive or partition, the destination drive is unmounted; When creating an image file from whatever source, the destination drive is mounted. The graphic tells it so much better IMHO.

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B.K. Johnson

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 157

PostPosted: Wed 30 May 2012, 10:44    Post subject: Pudd doesn't work as advertised to backup a flash drive  

Here is the updated chart with the added note. I thought of adding the standard graphics for mounted and unmounted drives but every puppy seems to have its own.

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