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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Protect Non-Expert Users From Themselves
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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darkcity


Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2411
Location: near here

PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun 2012, 08:39    Post subject:  

you could ask for help in the programming forum. . .
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johnywhy

Joined: 20 Aug 2011
Posts: 353

PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun 2012, 19:14    Post subject:  

Another suggestion, which probably has already been made:

-auto-enlarge the pupsave as needed.

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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 08 Jun 2012, 19:26    Post subject:  

Quote:
ask for help in the programming forum . . .

or the Saluki thread
. . . or the Salukians Forum
http://saluki-linux.com/Forum/index.php Smile

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10523
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jun 2012, 07:11    Post subject:  

I support what 'f00 writes

"Save/Nosave option
Depending on install method, this can be vital
(it's standard on liveCD multisession), if things
go seriously wrong having Nosave as the default logoff action
enables a graceful exit. As I recall, shinobar's pupsaveconfig
does this for frugal installs. "

The problem seems to be that for frugal install on internal HD
most puppies are set to save each 30 minutes so it is already too late
to stop the saving. Sure one can change this but a noob would not know.

One need to manually change that to only save when the user wants it to save.

On making Puppy better. Devs being totally volunteer make this hard.
One would need to donate for to get certain features or do it oneself.

I support that Devs should be allowed for to decide on what they feel for
or else we would not have had any Puppy at all if it where paid work.

Puppy is this good because none got paid for it and only did what they felt for to do on their own.

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johnywhy

Joined: 20 Aug 2011
Posts: 353

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jun 2012, 14:52    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:

"Save/Nosave option can be vital 
(it's standard on liveCD multisession), 


My suggestions above are for frugal installs, which is the scenario I would recommend for non-expert users-- no flash drive to lose, reuse, or confuse. 

nooby wrote:
The problem seems to be that for frugal install on internal HD most puppies are set to save each 30 minutes 


How is that a problem? How does it relate to my suggestion?

nooby wrote:
On making Puppy better. Devs being totally volunteer make this hard. I support that Devs should be allowed for to decide on what they feel 


For sure. Do you think I'm saying someone should be "required" to implement my suggestions? Of course not. I posted suggestions here because this is the "Suggestion" Forum. Presumably it's called a "Suggestion" Forum to encourage people to post suggestions here. Devs can do what they like. 

Is this "Suggestion" Forum intended for lower-level, coding suggestions, rather than feature suggestions? If so, my bad and I retract my suggestions.

Cheers! 

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Flash
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jun 2012, 16:07    Post subject:  

It's for any suggestion that has to do with Puppy. Smile
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10523
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jun 2012, 16:56    Post subject:  

I only try to be logical. I'm sure you are logical
so it does not apply to you personally I talk about
all the noobs not knowing that puppy saves by default
each 30 minutes so them would trust it only saves if
them tell it to save.

so unless all saving is changed to not save at all unless
one tell it too then it is too late to stop what you write.

"if things go seriously wrong
having Nosave as the default logoff action
enables a graceful exit."

But maybe that is implied that one only save if one want to.
I don't remember that it was set up that way on hard disk.
Hopefully I am wrong. I only tried to support your wish here.

So it was directly related. Okay!

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johnywhy

Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sat 09 Jun 2012, 21:53    Post subject:  

Thanks nooby.

Im confused, because when I log off my frugals, I get something like "puppy mounted in top layer, already saved." Even if my session was only 10 minutes.

would not be a problem if Auto-saving save a bad session, if we have auto-backup. Do you suggest another way to protect from this scenario?

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harii4


Joined: 30 Jan 2009
Posts: 444
Location: La Porte City, IA , U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jun 2012, 22:27    Post subject:  

Quote:
Incompatible Pets/SFS's
Seems like it would not take much to, say, prevent installation of an incompatible SFS or PET. At least a couple ways:

all pets/sfs's could have a tag or property indicating which puppy versions they are known to work with. On attempted install, alert user if their puppy version is not known to be compatible.
have a 'catch-all' menu, where launchers are placed if a pet/sfs tries to write to a menu that does not exist.
installers make other changes to the OS. Puppy should be "aware" of what the installer is doing, and alert user if the installer is trying to do something inappropriate.


Pupsave Backup/Restore
Many of us do manual backups and restores of the pupsave. Would love to see that automated (with manual option). Could be combined with "Last Known Good", above. I compress my backups, since they do compress so small. Even more space could be saved by making them incremental.
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=629862#629862
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=629865#629865

I think these sorts of protections could help expand puppy's userbase to mainstream, non-expert users-- if that is a goal.

What other breakage-protections and fool-proofing can folks think of?

Until an new Fool-Proof-System comes out --
We can use what the Old Puppy Guru's way. Cool

Quote:
Try it on the "Live-CD" First - if it breaks don't use it.


WISE WORDS that fall on Deaf ears of One whom likes hard drive installs.
I'll never learn Smile

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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3861
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Sat 09 Jun 2012, 22:47    Post subject:  

johnywhy wrote:
Thanks nooby.

Im confused, because when I log off my frugals, I get something like "puppy mounted in top layer, already saved." Even if my session was only 10 minutes.

would not be a problem if Auto-saving save a bad session, if we have auto-backup. Do you suggest another way to protect from this scenario?


Then you run frugal on normal HDD and not SSD-HDD or USB-Flash .

The RAMSAVEINTERVAL with snapmergepuppy and the "Save" icon on desktop only happens in combination with Flash to reduce the writings .

Launch "Puppy Event Manager" from System Menu and read the tab "Save Session" again if already read long time ago .
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3263
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Sun 10 Jun 2012, 03:25    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:
puppy saves by default
each 30 minutes

Only true IF/when [the Puppy THINKS] the pupsave file is being held on a Flash Drive.
So....
I configure my Puppy [pmedia=ataflash in the isolinux.cfg file in the ISO] so it thinks the pupsave on the internal HDD is on an ATA Flash Drive.
Then I can configure so there is no auto-save during the session.
And CHOOSE instead IF/when to manually save the session during the session.
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noryb009

Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 529

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul 2012, 19:25    Post subject:  

I'm just going to comment on the ideas in the first post:

Last Known Good Config:

It would be very easy for puppy linux to keep a backup of the last few configurations of a few key files: just get the checksum of the last backup (in some directory) and the current file on shutdown, and if they are different, make a new backup.

Incompatible Pets/SFS's:

Unfortunately, with how things are currently set up, I don't see this idea working. Pet files (at least the more advanced ones) can pretty much only be used on the puppy it was made for (which is stated in the file name or in the thread), and it's hard to fix an pet made for another puppy (dependencies are the main reason why they fail).
It is possible to alert the user if a file is going to be overwritten, then let the user choose which copy of the file to keep. I don't know why this hasn't been implemented yet.

Pupsave Backup/Restore:

I'm pretty sure there are some scripts somewhere in the forum for this type of thing.
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Gnuxo

Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Posts: 365

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul 2012, 17:02    Post subject:  

Yeah, there are times when I screw up and wish that the session wasn't automatically saved on shut down.

If you can get an optional choice to ask whether to save each time, it could save a lot of heart ache and allow for more experimentation without fear.
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johnywhy

Joined: 20 Aug 2011
Posts: 353

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul 2012, 17:58    Post subject:  

Gnuxo wrote:
If you can get an optional choice to ask whether to save each time, it could save a lot of heart ache.


True, but it also gives the non-expert user something else to be confused about. "should I save or not? Whats a pupsave? Hm, my system's not working right, I better save."

My suggestion is to give the user less to think about, fewer admin tasks to deal with, not more.

Also, sometimes you won't know the system is broken until after you reboot, and then it's too late.

Autosaving a last-known-good resolves both those problems.

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Gnuxo

Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Posts: 365

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul 2012, 18:30    Post subject:  

Quote:
True, but it also gives the non-expert user something else to be confused about. "should I save or not? Whats a pupsave? Hm, my system's not working right, I better save.


Which is why I said make it optional. It doesn't have to be enabled by default.
...But it's a feature I would need because I download and install a lot of crap.
I also like mucking around in the .xinitrc, which is dangerous.
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