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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
Other Distros
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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2279

PostPosted: Sun 29 Jul 2012, 15:15    Post subject:  

What is it about frugal install that makes so few Developers interested in allowing it for their OS?

It'S because when you do a 'frugal install' on NTFS, then that means that all your installation and files are dependent on the integrity of a non-linux, non-open-source, and (nearly) non-repairable file sytsem. That means that any time you have a problem and ask questions about it, they always have to deal with the possibility that you have corrupted your non-linux filesystem. You say, for example, 'I can't login or access my files -I get 'Permission Denied'. They have no way of telling if it is because you have a problem within your/their Linux system, or maybe your NTFS has become corrupted and can no longer be mounted read-write -hence denying you access. The last thing they want is to be dealing with possible Linux problems.

I'll again advise you that you shouldn't expose yourself to windows problems either. I know you want to keep a windows install so you can update your phones, etc. Why don't you simply keep a computer with windoes on it that you never use for anythign else. Then have your nice Linux box -or even a dual install with windows also. By allowing yourself the luxury of instaling linux, then you have complete freedom to use (nearly) any linux distro you want -in a way which is more intuitive and common than running from CD or from a 'frugal install'. You might even find a distro which caters more to your special needs than most do -there are several distros out there for older folks or people with special problems.

Your understanding and ability to use what you are running would increase greatly if you stopped jumping around all the time. For every-day use, I still rely on a system which I installed, setup and customized more than five years ago. I still like it because I know my way around it, know what it can and can't do, and it *always* works.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Sun 29 Jul 2012, 16:07    Post subject:  

I agree that you give good advice.

Typical of me I have no idea which
computer I should ahve as the Win
and which as only Linux on.

Maybe the big desktop is best suited for Windows only.
I had spotify on that one and could do a copy of those
spotify that I longed for to have a copy of.

Better quality then the analog copy I do using linux?

Unless linux also make a digital copy?

But I am just one out of some 90% that has Windows
and many of these people don't have two computers.

I have 5 computer even 6 if I count the one without HD.
I use that one to run grub2 over Flash for those OS that
need grub2. Okay my Asus EeePC is only linux on.
Butthat one have very small and very old SSD on them.
Very slow such too. So I have than in a drawer as a reserve
if my two Acer netbooks get broken.

I am a spoiled kid. The "jump around" is for to survive.
To make life interesting. A kind of weird hobby.

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5940
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Sun 29 Jul 2012, 18:27    Post subject:  

Trying out the latest AntiX release candidate....... pretty impressive.
screenshot.jpg
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screenshot.jpg

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5940
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 02:28    Post subject:  

Full desktop screenie......
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Colonel Panic


Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 1529

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 09:00    Post subject:  

amigo wrote:
What is it about frugal install that makes so few Developers interested in allowing it for their OS?

It'S because when you do a 'frugal install' on NTFS, then that means that all your installation and files are dependent on the integrity of a non-linux, non-open-source, and (nearly) non-repairable file sytsem. That means that any time you have a problem and ask questions about it, they always have to deal with the possibility that you have corrupted your non-linux filesystem. You say, for example, 'I can't login or access my files -I get 'Permission Denied'. They have no way of telling if it is because you have a problem within your/their Linux system, or maybe your NTFS has become corrupted and can no longer be mounted read-write -hence denying you access. The last thing they want is to be dealing with possible Linux problems.

I'll again advise you that you shouldn't expose yourself to windows problems either. I know you want to keep a windows install so you can update your phones, etc. Why don't you simply keep a computer with windoes on it that you never use for anythign else. Then have your nice Linux box -or even a dual install with windows also. By allowing yourself the luxury of instaling linux, then you have complete freedom to use (nearly) any linux distro you want -in a way which is more intuitive and common than running from CD or from a 'frugal install'. You might even find a distro which caters more to your special needs than most do -there are several distros out there for older folks or people with special problems.

Your understanding and ability to use what you are running would increase greatly if you stopped jumping around all the time. For every-day use, I still rely on a system which I installed, setup and customized more than five years ago. I still like it because I know my way around it, know what it can and can't do, and it *always* works.


Agreed, and the answer is to have a space on your hard drive which isn't NTFS and is used purely for storage - the best option IMO is to format a partition in fat32 for this. That way it can be accessed either by a Linux distro or by Windows, and Puppy's .sfs and .3fs etc. files can be put there.

I can't honestly see why Microsoft sticks with NTFS anyway, but that's a different discussion.

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bark_bark_bark

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Posts: 901
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 10:05    Post subject:  

NTFS is a lot more reliable than FAT32. FAT32 was introduced in the horribly unstable Win9x. The XP/Vista/7 versions of FAT32 are just ported/emulated versions. I prefer NTFS all the way.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 12:56    Post subject:  

bark_bark_bark wrote:
... I prefer NTFS all the way.


Have you found a way to do defrag or repair of it without
logging into a windows OS?

Oh most likely there are a payed prog for such
but I would prefer a "free" one in linux.

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bark_bark_bark

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Posts: 901
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 13:05    Post subject:  

No, but why would you use a windows NT-based filesystem for linux. I HIGHLY doubt there is a tool, but you can use windows for that (like defragler, a tool by the creators of CCleaner).
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Colonel Panic


Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 1529

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 13:37    Post subject:  

bark_bark_bark wrote:
NTFS is a lot more reliable than FAT32. FAT32 was introduced in the horribly unstable Win9x. The XP/Vista/7 versions of FAT32 are just ported/emulated versions. I prefer NTFS all the way.


Fair enough, buit both NTFS and FAT 16/32 need defragging whereas ext3 and 4 don't. There used to be a Windows XP utility which could read ext2 filesystems, but I don't know if there's one for Windows 7 or one which can read ext3 and ext4.

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bark_bark_bark

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Posts: 901
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 13:45    Post subject:  

Colonel Panic wrote:
There used to be a Windows XP utility which could read ext2 filesystems


There is one in the Hiren's boot CD. But you need windows to use that tool.

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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2672
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 14:36    Post subject:  

Colonel Panic wrote:
.. and the answer is to have a space on your hard drive which isn't NTFS and is used purely for storage - the best option IMO is to format a partition in fat32 for this. That way it can be accessed either by a Linux distro or by Windows, and Puppy's .sfs and .3fs etc. files can be put there.

And FAT32 can also be accessed by Mac systems too, so it is still quite a good option for storing data that needs to be accessed across operating systems.
Just be aware that there are a variety of size limitations that affect how useful FAT32 is. Due to the way the free space is allocated a FAT32 partition will become slower at accessing files the bigger the partition is. Apparently 32Gb is considered the biggest practical limit. (WinXP will not allow you to make a FAT32 partition bigger than this - although it is able to use a bigger one if you have created it on a different system). FAT32 partitions bigger than 32Gb will be slower, more fragmented, and also wasteful of space due to cluster sizes etc.
.
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linuxbear

Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 14:51    Post subject:  

I would back puppy up before a defrag. I made the mistake of running defrag with my Puppy-on-a-stick plugged into the USB port. The result was that Puppy would no longer boot from the USB pendrive
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gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4447
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 15:54    Post subject:  

Quote:
... NTFS and FAT 16/32 need defragging whereas ext3 and 4 don't ...
I'm not quite sure this is an accurate statement.

Also, someone alluded that FAT (16/32) are bad filesystems. I'm not sure that is an accuate portrayal either.

But, of the filesystems that are mentioned, each has advantages and disadvantages.

Humbly, I must admit, that I have had little problems with the filesystems themselves as long as you use them as intended. Most problems that occur with any filesystem is application or user command level corruption or destruction.

Hope this is appreciatively useful.

Here to help

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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3227
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 20:14    Post subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
NTFS is just M$`s attempt to obfuscate and maintain proprietary control...
Fat 32 is an acceptable FS.. But a journaled FS like ext3 is far superiour..

Ext2IFS_1_11a.exe, attached below, works OK for me..

Tip: To "defrag" a Linux FS, copy the contents out, and back... Ta-da....
Ext2IFS.tar.gz
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gz

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Filename  Ext2IFS.tar.gz 
Filesize  1.39 MB 
Downloaded  186 Time(s) 

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug 2012, 14:59    Post subject:  

Thanks puppyluvr .

I do remember that I've read about that trick before.

Suppose my hardisk is 250 MB and I have already
used say 200GB would one really trust a program
to be able to do that trick on it?

But I would maybe be able to defrag one iso at a time
and isos are very sensitive to be fragmented.

They refuse to boot if they are too fragmented.

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