Legacy OS 2 & 4 are you a User? Who am I developing for?

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john biles
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Legacy OS 2 & 4 are you a User? Who am I developing for?

#1 Post by john biles »

Anyone developing a derivative knows the amount of time it takes to create one.
Over the years I have put a lot of my free time in doing so. Over the last few months I've seen very little interest on the forum except from new Users coming over from seeing Legacy OS on Distrowatch. Now that Legacy OS has dropped out of the top 100, interest in the project will be even less. This leaves me with 3 choices: A new release with real improvements to generate interest on Distrowatch moving it back in to the top 100, updates / new Apps for Legacy OS 2 & 4 or stop the project.

Let's take a look at how I see it from my side. With past releases I imagined a User using Legacy OS and tried as my skills improved to give that user the best experience I could. I was always looking for new and better Applications to be included in the ISO CD. Look and Feel was of equal important and one of the main reasons the project started.

Over the years the project has moved to saving old Pentium III’s & 4’s from Landfill and that's where I feel the project is of most use. Take an older release add as many useful Apps plus a Modern Web Browser fine tune it and share it with those who want to use it. Make it as modern looking as possible and add usability in to the mix.

A number of Users miss the point of Legacy OS and want it sitting on say a Puppy 5.2.8 base or something like that. Right now how many Puppy derivatives are doing just that? Lots!

As the Hardware Legacy OS is targeted at doesn't change why should Legacy OS. In Legacy OS 2 the selection of great useful Apps put a lot of other distro’s to shame. Yes they are not the latest and greatest versions available but in a Pentium III environment they run pretty darn well, are still very usable and turn most worthless Pentium III’s in to a very useful tool for a student, poor families or anyone else who can't stand the idea of dumping a still perfectly working computer in to landfill.

As I write this I know there's at least one more release of Legacy OS 2 with updates to Opera and a number of other Apps. Opera 12 with a slimmed down version of QT4 runs surprisingly well in Legacy OS 2. While Opera may be seen as the last choice in an open source world, it is the only HTML5 Web Browser that will run in Legacy OS 2 and I thank the developers of Opera for supporting Linux when other propriety companies don't.
Opera 12 with its included Email client allow Legacy OS 2 Users access to options no Pentium III computer should have.

While I have access to 3 Ghz Pentium 4 computers, my daily driver so to speak is a 667Mhz Pentium III on which all my testing is done. OK I'll admit that it sometimes bogs down with over the top filled web pages, but at the same time its fine with most web pages I throw at it. At work I use an i5 quad core Pentium desktop running Windows 7 and Internet Explorer still drives me crazy while I'm waiting for Web pages to load

Now the question I need to know is just how many of you actually use Legacy OS either version 2 or 4 mini. I will assume that if no body replies then no body is using Legacy OS. It's as simple as that. If you want to see future releases of Legacy OS then have your say now.

Just for the record unlike other forum posts where support for a Derivative hasn't happened and the developer gets frustrated and quits the forum in disgust all angry, this isn't the case with me. I made the decision to start this project and when the time comes I'll make the decision to stop it and do something else.
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

oligin10
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Legacy OS$

#2 Post by oligin10 »

Hi John, thanks for asking this question. I had been using Legacy OS4 on my laptop. I also have a desktop, which I run windows on. I have remastered several times, and have finally come up with one that has only what I want. But I gave my laptop to a friend's mother who needed a computer and did not have one available. I put windows xp back on it for her, as I do not know her or live anywhere near her. I also had a spare desktop, which I put my remastered version with no karamba or opera. I gave this old desktop to a neighbor lady who just lost her husband earlier this year. She loves it! It does everything she wants, and is very fast on an old pentium 4 1.8 single core processor. The only problems I found were poor wifi support (fixed with ndiswrapper) and no webcam support. I think if people do not need the webcam support, you can't beat Legacy OS4. Thanks for all your hard work. Rob

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john biles
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#3 Post by john biles »

Hello oligin10,
Thanks for replying. You say you remastered Legacy OS 4 many times what did you add / change and why?
Also what does Legacy OS 4 give you other derivatives don't. What am I doing right... Your thoughts please...
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

oligin10
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My changes

#4 Post by oligin10 »

Hi John, I removed Opera because after using the update feature built into Firefox, it broke Opera. I don't like or use karamba, and just feel the desktop looks better and is easier for people used to windows if I just put regular desktop icons for Web, Mail, Music, Solitaire, Writer, Files. I also fixed the theme switcher (which I posted in one of the topics how to do so). Other than that, that is all I feel is necessary for anyone who is used to windows xp to feel comfortable using this. I make sure to use nice looking icons which are already on the disk, I think. I may have had to add one or two that I like better. The reason I use the generic names is that I try to keep people from using the menu if possible. I know why you include so many apps, and I'm not trying to have you slim Legacy OS 4 down, but I am trying to make it as easy as possible for people to feel comfortable with immediately. I feel this is the easiest way to convert people to Linux, and especially Legacy. The only other things I do is change back to Teen Pup Mini 2010 theme and change the background. I just prefer them, nothing wrong with what is offered. As far as what you are including that others (Puppy based) don't, I honestly think that K3B is just one of the many reasons. Magic Scripts is very nice. Your selection of programs allows me to pick the ones I like and use them. Thanks again, Rob
P.S. The reason I remastered so many times is that once I had made one change, I burnt a remaster. That way if I made a mistake after that, I wouldn't have to start all over.

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sullysat
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#5 Post by sullysat »

Hey John,

I've been way too busy and way to absent lately, but I saw this post and thought I'd reply.

Legacy OS is one of my go-to distros when I'm rebuilding old machines. I don't use it every day, but I have given away several machines running your distro and I will continue to host it on my Puppy site ( which is way overdue for an update).

So just know that I'm on the list of people who enjoy and appreciate your efforts.

Thanks,
Sully
Puppy Files Mirror - [b][url]http://www.wisdom-seekers.com/puppy.html[/url][/b]
Classic Puppy Page - [b][url]http://www.wisdom-seekers.com/puppy214x.html[/url][/b]

johnrpm
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#6 Post by johnrpm »

I am an end user, I have been using lucid most of this year on an ancient laptop, It put the fun back into computers for me, I found that I was booting the ancient laptop and rarely the old laptop with windows and ubuntu installed.
I decided a few weeks ago to delete ubuntu and have a puppy instead, I now have a stack of CD's with lots of pups, I had not tried legacy, I thought it was for really old hardware, must say you have done a good job, I still need to spend some time with it but so far everything seems to work well.
In my quest for my ideal OS, long term support is a factor, no use falling in love with an OS if it is not updated, I am spoilt for choice with puppy, so many good pups.

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nitehawk
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#7 Post by nitehawk »

I had been using just the old LegacyOS 2010 on my older PIII,...until not too long ago. I switched to the new Wary 5.3 on it,....but it just doesn't have all the bells and whistles that Legacy does, I'm afraid. I just recently added Macpup on my main p4, as well. But I would most definitely be a LegacyOS user again, if a new one comes out!

...and remember about the Distrowatch thing. Every time a lot of newer distros come out,....they always seem to jump to the top of the list, and the ones that are steady, and have been around a while, seem to sink away. For instance,..good distros like Parsix only seem to surface when they come out with a newer one. Then it seems to sink down below the 100 mark with a lot of other good ones.

Now one of the main things I need on my P4 machine, is the 1366x768 display setting. Some of the older Puppies didn't seem to be able to do that (haven't tried Legacy 2010 or newer Legacys on it yet). Wary can do it,..as well as Macpup.

Anyhow,....I'm going in and re-installing Legacy 2010 on my old PIII again right now,...and will get a newer one ASAP. Please don't get discouraged, there are Puppy lovers who love and use your nice distro.

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#8 Post by Puppyt »

Hi John,
I feel you should be justifiably proud of your efforts on the Puppy2 / Puppy4 front - and I know I am on record for stating this in the past. I still run TeenPupMini2010beta on my Toshiba 3480ct (PIII, 600MHz cpu, 192 Mb RAM) and hadn't really seen the need to upgrade to the Legacy series. Running it through the hoops again recently I realised that I really miss not having Frisbee around - could never quite get wifi configured correctly in TPM2010B, with the Toshie's Broadcom43xx pcmcia modem that other Puppy4's like Fluppy and MacPupFoxy 2 didn't have issue with. But you have discussed the wifi side of things plenty of times in the past, and I quite understand your focus of development can't feasibly address all contingencies. Getting around to downloading Legacy 2 and 4 at long-llast to compare with TPM2010B on wifi and other fronts.
My personal interest in pupplets on that old machine tends to be more to the spartan side - I do have performance issues despite everything jumping well OOTB in TPM2010B - and that is testament to your craftwork in application choice and compilation. So I tend to deactivate Karumba - tends to hog the screen space too, on my lappie I feel - and I don't know what sort of overhead drag that KDE might impose on the operation of the Toshie overall. And I appreciate that with your distros - breaking into poor analogies here - you not only include the Out house sink but also the Italian Granite benchtops, the Gorenje built-in coffee machine, the Meneghini fridge and the Aga wood stove... Ahhhh the luxury! Nonetheless I wonder whether you might consider modularising your Legacy more, so that some applications might be added as an SFS as the user might require, or some seldom-used applications be stripped out at the user's preference, a-la petbegone.I would look forward to a Trinity-based (or SFS for) future Legacies to handle the KDE side of things - but only because I understand that it might be lighter and more efficient than KDE4+ - and not because I have any expertise in that desktop environment. That said, I particularly look forward to Opera12 and QT4 in Legacy that you mentioned in the OP. And with KDE support for my pocket PC's (pc2002 and WM2003), Legacy might well be the only distro that gets the most out of my vintage hardware set.
Proper feedback on Legacy soon,
Cheers!
Search engines for Puppy
[url]http://puppylinux.us/psearch.html[/url]; [url=https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=015995643981050743583%3Aabvzbibgzxo&q=#gsc.tab=0]Google Custom Search[/url]; [url]http://wellminded.net63.net/[/url] others TBA...

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john biles
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#9 Post by john biles »

Hello to all replying to this thread,
Please keep posting your thoughts.

I was saving Opera 12 Final with QT4 for the next release of Legacy OS 2.1 but have decided to upload it now to the Repository. You'll also find the Dolphin File Manager (QT3 Version)

To those thinking you'll now be able to install QT4 Apps in Legacy OS 2 this is not the case. It was packaged with Opera 12 and resides in the Opera folder not the normal system folders like /usr/lib It is also a stripped version not containing a full QT4 environment.

On and off over the last few months I've been working on a possible release but now have to decide what direction I want to go. Your words have got me thinking. Please try Opera 12 Final and Dolphin by installing to / and reloading the menu will install in seconds...

Please Note: Not tested in Legacy OS 4 Mini as it comes with Firefox 5 by default and is set to the update channel. Selecting help and version in Firefox will cause it to update to Firefox 16. Easy!
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

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Eathray
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#10 Post by Eathray »

Hey John,

I know you posted this a while back, but in reply, I have about 20 older machines that seem like a good fit for Legacy 2 and 4. A lot going on in life right now, but it's a resale hobby for me that occasionally supplies me with a tank of gas in my Jeep or parts for newer machines. A lot of times we forget to say thanks to all the amazing people in the community like yourself, ttuuxxx, and so many others who make this fun possible.

Legacy remains viable. Don't kill yourself, but keep it coming. I for one will be continuing to use it (I think I've sold two used machines with Legacy OS 2, and plan to try 4 soon on some P4's). It's a worth-while project.

Eathray

Pelo

Legacy OS : Update drivers

#11 Post by Pelo »

I used Teenpup then legacy OS. It's one of my prefered , but i cannot connect Internet on my newest computer (atheros atl1c or atl1e is the driver for ethhernet)
For me it's a very good distro with Kde apps.
Remasterized with Racy 5.3 : I can now surf on the web.
Last edited by Pelo on Thu 19 Sep 2013, 07:30, edited 1 time in total.

dancytron
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#12 Post by dancytron »

I have OS 4 dual boot with Windows 2000 on my Itronix Celeron III 512 Mb of ram laptop. I tried 3 or 4 different puppies on it and OS 4 seemed to run the smoothest, fastest and be readable on the crappy 800x600 screen.

To be honest, the laptop doesn't get used much except with Windows 2000. The main time I use OS 4 is when someone else wants to check email or something (to keep them out of all the personal stuff on my Windows 2000).

I'd concentrate on old hardware, for me at least that seems what it is made for.

trowsdale
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#13 Post by trowsdale »

Hi all,

I recently wrote about my fondness for Legacy:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=82359

Yes, still using 4 Mini - and no rush at all to upgrade, this will be very serviceable for a few years on my old laptop.

I'm going to buy a new-ish (not new) PC as well, and will likely use Legacy as the primary O/S on that one too. Why not? I could do SUSE or Mint, but I'm most happy and comfortable with Legacy, and on a newer PC, it will be blazing fast.

So if John wants to keep developing, that's great - but feel free to take a nice long break, I won't be looking for major upgrades for a long while.

Bill

antneil
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Legacy OS2 & OS4

#14 Post by antneil »

I use OS2 & 4 and I like them so keep up the small updates now and then. Chrome 12 sounds a good update. I run OS4 & 2 on a 8 year old Celeron 2.4Ghz, IGB memory. The OS's have all the software I need. You're right, there are plenty of distributions for modern PC,s and Legacy is for older PC's which have plenty of life left in them. I can buy Pentium 4's with 500MB memory, 80GB HD and CD drives for only £35 from my local PC shop(inc Windows XP Pro installed).
Don't let Legacy die
All the best.
Ant

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Colonel Panic
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#15 Post by Colonel Panic »

Hi John. I saw this thread last week and am having a look at Legacy 4 Mini again.

A lot of it works really well and would be a pleasure to use. The only downsides I've seen with it are; 1 / the lack of recognition for ext4, which means you can't save TeenPup Mini to an ext4 partition or read any files which have been saved on one, and 2 / the old version of Abiword (2.6.3) installed by default, which will not open Open Document files properly (though Gnumeric seems fine in this respect);

To be fair. there are workarounds for both these problems; have at least one partition which isn't formatted in ext4, and also save files from LibreOffice in either Word or Excel format instead of Open Office.

Also, this time round the desktop opened with no application icons and all the drive / partition ones stacked on top of one another, though I'm not sure why since it's been fine in the past.

Best,

CP .
Gigabyte M68MT-52P motherboard, AMD Athlon II X4 630, 5.8 GB of DDR3 RAM and a 250 GB Hitachi hard drive running Ubuntu 16.04.6, MX-19.2, Peppermint 10, PCLinuxOS 20.02, LXLE 18.04.3, Pardus 19.2, exGENT 200119, Bionic Pup 8.0 and Xenial CE 7.5 XL.

toomanyquestions
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Suggestions

#16 Post by toomanyquestions »

I'm not a regular user, but I've taken Legacy for a few short test drives...Here are my ideas (re: mini 4) -

> Change the desktop. I love to customize the panel with a few clicks, and I'm addicted to desktop right-click menus. Perhaps Openbox w/lxpanel & Karamba/sidebar?

>Replace rox as default filemanager

> And, to echo someone else, become more a little more modular (sfs/pets etc). Each user has a different list of "indispensable" programs (for me it's libre office)

Just a few thoughts – keep up the good work - but not at the expense of your family...
Last edited by toomanyquestions on Sun 17 Feb 2013, 06:03, edited 8 times in total.

infromthepound
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#17 Post by infromthepound »

I use it ocasionaly. It's very useful on some of the old equipment I get given, which often end up either as spare parts or having as major RAM upgrade.
JB

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Pete22
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Who are you developing for.

#18 Post by Pete22 »

I just happened upon your post by accident.

Who are you developing for? Well, you used to develop for the non-geek
user who wanted to use linux instead of windows on an older computer.
I used and loved teenpup 2009. The one with the orange flowers on the
desktop. I used it as my main operating system for 3 years. It was by far
the easiest puppy I have used. Thank you very much for those good
years.

legacy os 2 was pretty good but small, Hated the desktop photos though.
My hardware really needed legacy 4. So I was very excited about legacy 4
coming out. However, when it arrived there were several major bugs
causing most of the programs to not work. When I came online to report
it; your messages made it clear that you were not interested in feedback
and not to contact you with problems. I was very dismayed. If it had been
little bugs, where I could still use the system I could have understood
your point of view better,

But it was a crippled system.

Since Legacy OS 4 didn't work on my computer, and I could not fix it, I
took it off my machine. I did not want to wait yet another year for you to
discover what my issues were on your own.

I understand where you are coming from on a support level. Yet, even if
you were unwilling to provide support, you should have been willing to
accept at least one-way feedback on your own products. Some things
would be items you might want to fix in the future. Some folks may have a
idea for an easy way to fix a problem with your programs that you may
have been struggling with. You might have also received some golden
suggestions for new features from some of your users. But you made it
very clear you did not want to hear from your users. So you have missed
out. And it is the reason why you don't know who is using your
programs now.

I don't think you understand how I felt when legacy 4 came out. I was long
time dedicated user who had patiently waited the extra year and a half for
version four to come out. It would not work, even though it was on the
right age of hardware. You left me with no support, and no chance of
correct the problems. I could not even tell you the problems I was seeing.

Without answering individual questions you could have made a FAQ file
with tips to get the system up and running based on similar types of
issues reported in a feedback system. There might have been easy
solution to get me up and running. I will never know.

Who are you developing for now? You are developing programs for yourself.
And when it works for you, you are happy. If it happens to work for
someone else, great.
If there are flaws that make it unusable for others, you want them to use
something else. Ok. Please make that very clear on your webpages.

Personally, even thought your products are excellent, I would not refer a
beginner to them. If they get stuck, they have no where to turn. Its a deal
breaker for me.

I still miss Teenpup 2009.

Keep the feedback lines open. You will do much better that way.


Pete

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James C
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#19 Post by James C »

I did a full install of Legacy OS 4 the day it was released on this old 733 mhz P3......... no real problems worth even mentioning.It's not my main os but I do still use it occasionally.Still have Legacy OS 2 installed on a couple of backup boxes as well.
Since mainstream Puppy development is gradually moving away from older hardware (PAE kernels, XZ compression,etc.) there should continue to be users for Legacy OS .......it just runs better on older hardware. :) Lack of versions for older hardware is precisely why I released Lucid Retro.

Keep up the good work...... at your own pace.
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john biles
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#20 Post by john biles »

Hello Pete22,
When I came online to report it; your messages made it clear that you were not interested in feedback and not to contact you with problems. I was very dismayed. If it had been little bugs, where I could still use the system I could have understood your point of view better, but it was a crippled system.
Did you ever post your problems? any links on the forum to them? One advantage Microsoft has over Linux is the original manufacturers design their products to work with Windows. Every piece of hardware comes with a disc full of Drivers. No even Ubuntu can support everything. Take the Compaq CQ45-805TU Notebook first released October 2012 my father brought one and no Linux Distro be it Mint, Ubuntu, Fedora etc etc will let him connect his WiFi or see his SD Card. He is 76 years old and after playing with Windows 8 for a week said he preferred Ubuntu and installed that only to discover these problems. Any comments I made about lack of support are based on the fact that I like everyone else here is still learning and don't have the answers to every configuration problem. Also a lot of derivative creators have asked those with the knowledge on the forum for help to fix bugs and have got upset and ranted and raved when they didn't get the support they thought they were in titled to. These forum members are putting their free time in developing Puppy not its derivatives. I created my derivative so I'm am responsible for it. I am only one person with a small family and a full time job and will never be able to give users the support Ubuntu, Fedora can.
legacy os 2 was pretty good but small, Hated the desktop photos though. My hardware really needed legacy 4. So I was very excited about legacy 4 coming out.
Out of interest why did you need Legacy OS 4?
I understand where you are coming from on a support level. Yet, even if you were unwilling to provide support, you should have been willing to accept at least one-way feedback on your own products.
I am happy for users to post their problems but in truth my time and knowledge will prevent a fix being found unless those on the forum with the knowledge want to give their time which most don't as once again their focus is on Puppy itself. An comments I made would have been made as I don't want Users to waste their time waiting for a fix that will never come.
I don't think you understand how I felt when legacy 4 came out. I was long time dedicated user who had patiently waited the extra year and a half for version four to come out. It would not work, even though it was on the right age of hardware. You left me with no support, and no chance of correct the problems. I could not even tell you the problems I was seeing.
If I was you I would have been annoyed BIGTIME! Would have said "Bloody Bastard, get stuffed". The reason It takes over a year to release something is I use it and test it and on my hardware it works (8 desktops, 2 Laptops). I feel bad when Legacy OS doesn't work with Users Hardware. But I also know that some users expect Legacy to do something it was never meant to do. I recommend users try Ubuntu 10.04 as it runs on hardware 12.04 won't because it is a longterm support version that runs great on old hardware. Question how old is that PC you say Legacy OS 4 is buggy on and what are these bugs you found?
Without answering individual questions you could have made a FAQ file with tips to get the system up and running based on similar types of
issues reported in a feedback system. There might have been easy
solution to get me up and running. I will never know.
It's hard to create a FAQ when you can't predict every problem there'll be that you don't experience with your own test Hardware.
Who are you developing for now? You are developing programs for yourself. And when it works for you, you are happy. If it happens to work for someone else, great. If there are flaws that make it unusable for others, you want them to use something else. Ok. Please make that very clear on your webpages.
If I was developing for just myself there would never had been a TEENpup or Legacy OS. This post was about seeing if there were real users using my releases. If not I would just look after my system on my PC. Reality is I am releasing something that works on 8 desktops and 2 laptops of difference makes and models and I know that there is no way I can make Legacy OS work with all of them. May be your right and I should only release Legacy OS after I have tracked down every make and model PC and Laptop a user might have and tested Legacy OS fully again them.
Who are you developing for? Well, you used to develop for the non-geek
user who wanted to use linux instead of windows on an older computer.
I used and loved teenpup 2009. The one with the orange flowers on the
desktop. I used it as my main operating system for 3 years. It was by far
the easiest puppy I have used. Thank you very much for those good
years.
I see you joined this forum in 2009 was it because of TEENpup? As your posting here I am assuming that Puppy or one of its derivatives is running on your computer. Why did you use TEENpup for 3 years instead of Puppy...
I'm glad you had 3 years of use out of TEENpup 2009 I'm disappointed Legacy OS 4 didn't live up to expectations.

As you've seen the next post from James C showed a difference experience with Legacy OS 4 over your's. I've experience similar problems with the big boys of Linux be it Ubuntu or Fedora, Mint, Suse, Mandriva and said "How can they release such a load of crap, I can't see why users think these releases are so great". Again I was expecting everything to work with my Hardware which it can't.

Lastly thanks for your comments I appreciate ant feedback I get be it good or bad. As I've said before users can post anything they want to say about Legacy OS as I won't get offended at all. :D
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

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