Collaborating as a team or group for Puppy good

News, happenings
Message
Author
User avatar
greengeek
Posts: 5789
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2010, 09:34
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

#21 Post by greengeek »

elroy wrote: that, in my opinion, is both the strength and weakness of puppy... It's a great thing in terms of freedom of expression, but it's a terrible thing in terms of leveraging the things it does well.
Do you think it could be possible to run a project where a group of devs could hammer out an agreed definition of a "complete" puppy with the features you outlined (standard PPM etc) and develop it in addition to their other pet projects? (so that creativity is not stifled). Or is that asking too much in terms of workload. If the definition and goals were clearly defined at the start it would probably not matter too much if devs came and went as time permitted. And if so, what would be the best forum to achieve the initial consensus and continue it?

jpeps
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat 31 May 2008, 19:00

#22 Post by jpeps »

elroy wrote:A most interesting discussion! I've always thought that if all of the puppy developers could agree to collaborate, that puppy would by far be the best linux distro to date.
What has made Puppy unique is an environment that supports creative individuals building upon the work of other creative individuals..but in their own way. If you want to produce anything of value, the last thing you want to do is make everything a group decision.

User avatar
Monsie
Posts: 631
Joined: Thu 01 Dec 2011, 07:37
Location: Kamloops BC Canada

Collaborating as a team or group for Puppy good

#23 Post by Monsie »

Hi all,

Well, there is certainly lots of collaborative type software and services available...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... e_software and like most software offerings, some of it is shareware, and some of it is freeware...

FusionForge is an open source collaborative offering, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FusionForge and can be found here.

But you know, I can't help but think that for the most part PLDF provides us with what we need... it's a matter of how we choose operate and to what extent we choose to co-operate within the Community.

Just some more food for thought,
Monsie
My [u]username[/u] is pronounced: "mun-see". Derived from my surname, it was my nickname throughout high school.

User avatar
mavrothal
Posts: 3096
Joined: Mon 24 Aug 2009, 18:23

#24 Post by mavrothal »

greengeek wrote:Do you think it could be possible to run a project where a group of devs could hammer out an agreed definition of a "complete" puppy with the features you outlined (standard PPM etc) and develop it in addition to their other pet projects? (so that creativity is not stifled).
This is not the way it works.
Linux and OSS in general, is a "grassroots" process. People voluntarily join a project that a) looks interesting and b) is inviting.
As easily, they walk away to go home (even ttuuxxx disappeared :o ) or do their own take on the same thing (as evident by the number of linux distributions).
You simply can not "force" linux developers together.

The thing with the puppy culture is that although "interesting" it is not "inviting". Instead it promotes a "do it yourself" approach.
There is nothing wrong with this. There are all kinds of distro's out there that can fit almost any requirement.
Puppy fits its own niche both as an OS and as a development approach.
After all Linux Desktop lost its chance (Vista) to become a viable user platform and remained stuck under 1%.
Mobile computing although "linux/BSD"-based, is dominated by Google and Apple with Linux not even in the charts.
So lets put things in prospective when we are making "big plans"...

I just wish for 4-5 competent, available and committed persons to find the same idea appealing and pursue it.
Whichever that idea might be as long as it goes by the name "puppy" :D
== [url=http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html]Here is how to solve your[/url] [url=https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html]Linux problems fast[/url] ==

ICPUG
Posts: 1308
Joined: Mon 25 Jul 2005, 00:09
Location: UK

#25 Post by ICPUG »

mavrothal - on this topic you speak wise words!

How often this topic comes around. This is the timeline:

1) Newcomer sees Puppy and is amazed and enthused

2) After going through a few upgrades and spending a little time with Puppy, newcomer realises that Puppy is disjointed from one version to the next and it has some features that need improving - repository; help files; addressing things that Windows does; etc.

3) Not so newcomer now says Puppy would be better if it was coordinated

4) It is pointed out to newcomer that Puppy devs don't want to be coordinated

5) We all have a big discussion trotting out the same arguments for one viewpoint or the other.

6) Newcomer either accepts the situation or gradually disappears from the forum!

I fell into the category that accepted and run multiple pups. That is not to say I disagree that Puppy would be much better if it were coordinated. I just accept it will not happen.

You will not get a coordinated anything if a developer is in charge. They don't have the right people skills. To coordinate to get a really great product you have to satisfy the different needs of developers, testers, users, quality assurance, etc. Then, when you have done this you have to maintain it from one version to the next.

Playdayz is the only guy here (and I include Barry in that) who has gone some way to achieving this. By his own admission he is not a developer, yet he got 01micko to develop and with Shinobar, Whodo, ttuxxx and just about anybody who was anybody on this forum to throw in their specific skillset without anyone getting upset! The result is the (still) amazing Lupu.
Of course, Puppy being Puppy, once Lupu was demoted from being mainstream to derivative there was no continuity to the next version (Slacko, Precise, whatever).

The only other way to get some sort of coordination is the benevolent dictator who has some knowledge of EVERYTHING, not just developing, and does it all themselves from version to version with continuity.

Into that category comes Tazoc. He just quietly looks at what is going on in the forum, picks the bits he thinks are best and produces the amazing Lighthouse Puppy. It has been around for ages and still works roughly the same way as it did in the beginning yet it has slowly morphed through various kernels, 32 bit - 64 bit and added new features, PupControl, sysinfo, etc. as they have become available. Those that crave stability and continuity should really take a peek at Lighthouse.

User avatar
rcrsn51
Posts: 13096
Joined: Tue 05 Sep 2006, 13:50
Location: Stratford, Ontario

#26 Post by rcrsn51 »

ICPUG wrote:You will not get a coordinated anything if a developer is in charge. They don't have the right people skills.
This idea has been expressed before in the forum and I have never understood it. It paints the picture of "developers" as being social misfits still living in their parents' basements. There are several active Puppy projects where the team leaders strike me as having excellent people skills.

jpeps
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat 31 May 2008, 19:00

#27 Post by jpeps »

ICPUG wrote:
You will not get a coordinated anything if a developer is in charge. They don't have the right people skills. To coordinate to get a really great product you have to satisfy the different needs of developers, testers, users, quality assurance, etc. Then, when you have done this you have to maintain it from one version to the next.

Playdayz is the only guy here (and I include Barry in that) who has gone some way to achieving this. By his own admission he is not a developer, yet he got 01micko to develop and with Shinobar, Whodo, ttuxxx and just about anybody who was anybody on this forum to throw in their specific skillset without anyone getting upset! The result is the (still) amazing Lupu.
Of course, Puppy being Puppy, once Lupu was demoted from being mainstream to derivative there was no continuity to the next version (Slacko, Precise, whatever).
Actually, there have been a number of developers who have been excellent. Pemasu with Dpup Exprimo, for example, who has tirelessly responded to users requests and incorporated numerous applications from puppy programmers into his distro. There are many others as well.

User avatar
greengeek
Posts: 5789
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2010, 09:34
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

#28 Post by greengeek »

I've been amazed at how helpful and committed the devs have been. And how patient (by far the majority of the time...). And not only the devs - lots of talented others beavering away in the background with years of experience in the kennels.

The questions I'd ask would be:

If there was going to be a project how would it be defined?
What would be the best tool for that collaboration?

In some ways I think a strongly structured and collaborative Puppy would be a very difficult project for devs to be involved with because it would involve a dev becoming a slave to other peoples ideas, rather than forging ahead with their own creative baby.

But even if there is no structure, what is the best collaborative medium? And would you want it to be open to all of us, or just the group of devs nutting out an issue?

jpeps
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat 31 May 2008, 19:00

#29 Post by jpeps »

greengeek wrote:
But even if there is no structure, what is the best collaborative medium? And would you want it to be open to all of us, or just the group of devs nutting out an issue?
I'm sure that could create an endless debate in itself, with nothing accomplished.

gcmartin

All of what we say can be structured...simply into a framewo

#30 Post by gcmartin »

in reviewing the offerings everyone is making, I think we are crafting a test collaborative movement which could result in a test PUP which will finalize in a true PUP approach for its distro's base.

Barry does Bones and Woof (this could/should be expanded into a collaboration of more than 1). And we, the community, advance a test approach.

Should we work with TaZoC, 01Micko, JamesBond, Rcrsn51 or who should be Collaborators for a project test. And, if we embark on a "world-wide approach" (which is what this is, are we willing to maintain documentation, not only about what we produce, but also about the advances and pitfalls we experience in working together.

Are we at a maturity-level of PLDF to step-out in investing in such an effort?

Step back a bit...If we look at just what we have already advanced in this thread, we can easily see how to approach this with a reasonably comfortable method of cooperation and achievement.

Looking at all of this from top-down, it is easy to see a path to success! And we wont be thinking outside of the box.

Here to help

jpeps
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat 31 May 2008, 19:00

#31 Post by jpeps »

I'd be willing to volunteer as treasurer.

User avatar
mavrothal
Posts: 3096
Joined: Mon 24 Aug 2009, 18:23

Re: All of what we say can be structured...simply into a framewo

#32 Post by mavrothal »

gcmartin wrote: Are we at a maturity-level of PLDF to step-out in investing in such an effort?

gcmartin,
This is not how it works.
Is not for you, me and the "treasurer" (kudos :lol: ) to tell/advise TaZoC, 01Micko, JamesBond etc what and how.
Nobody is going to build our pupplet!

Try this instead (with this order).
1) Build what you can.
2) Tell (concept) what you want to build, show (code) how you go about it and where you are at (prototype).
3) Ask for help where you can not do it yourself (for whatever reason)
4) Ask for alternative technical suggestions/improvements/impementations
5) Invite (usually privately) people that contribute to join
6) If things start moving to the direction you want and can not be accommodated by the current structures, try to make it an "organization" (ie website, wiki, bug-tracker, IRC channel, mailing list and eventually forum).

PS: make sure you have a lot of time and some disposable income.
== [url=http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html]Here is how to solve your[/url] [url=https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html]Linux problems fast[/url] ==

jpeps
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat 31 May 2008, 19:00

#33 Post by jpeps »

I vote for mavrothal's proposal.

gcmartin

#34 Post by gcmartin »

Don't take this wrongly, but, I think that approach is not a very good one. And because I say this doesn't mean that your comments are not of value. They are...

I see what you are suggesting, but, this is what is already done in Puppyland and there are many examples of this.

What you offer is similar to what has been going on.

I am suggesting true collaboration. This starts with a definition. One way of looking at a definition is to look at a starting point of what the developers I suggest already have done, understand, and are clear on. As a team we dont "tell" them what to do...instead we work with them working from a documented design point and working in such a way where everyone contributes what they can to the whole.

Its not just a slapping of packs together or just using a particular repo. Its about looking at what is to be achieved, the audience intended, and using the creativity of the forum, collaborating (at least willing to) for addressing objective.

I'm not trying to talk over someone's heads, here. And, I am not trying to suggest that because one does/doesn't write code he shouldn't be discussing a collaboration project either.

We talking about finding a methodology to work together and giving an honest try at finding approaches for useful work which could become generally available and have enough meat on the bones that everyone can "ride the dog". Much of the prior efforts were done using old approaches and old methodologies. With the open-sources tools and free collaboration tools, this community can achieve working as a team for common useful good.

It will take a willingness to want to work together.

P.S. How did anyone get the idea that "I" (as in eye) suggesting telling a project leader what to do? Is this a funny that I am missing or was someone trying to make a genuine comment?

AND, thanks @Jpeps for your offer of Treasurer and your opening monetary contribution to go toward a paid site. But, I think that as an Open source project team, we MAY be able to get collaboration site areas for free, if, of course, we carry this forward.

User avatar
mavrothal
Posts: 3096
Joined: Mon 24 Aug 2009, 18:23

#35 Post by mavrothal »

gcmartin wrote:What you offer is similar to what has been going on.
What I'm offering is what has been going on in the entire linux/open source universe.
And there are many reasons for that but no time to explain. Google it if interested.

Some forum-hopping will show that this does not discourage people from trying. Hopefully this is the case here too.
== [url=http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html]Here is how to solve your[/url] [url=https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html]Linux problems fast[/url] ==

jpeps
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat 31 May 2008, 19:00

#36 Post by jpeps »

gcmartin wrote:Don't take this wrongly, but, I think that approach is not a very good one.
It's good enough to be surpassing multi billion dollar, professionally organized, collaborative efforts by the best and brightest.

ICPUG
Posts: 1308
Joined: Mon 25 Jul 2005, 00:09
Location: UK

#37 Post by ICPUG »

rcrsn51 wrote:
ICPUG wrote:You will not get a coordinated anything if a developer is in charge. They don't have the right people skills.
This idea has been expressed before in the forum and I have never understood it. It paints the picture of "developers" as being social misfits still living in their parents' basements. There are several active Puppy projects where the team leaders strike me as having excellent people skills.
Sigh - That is not what I meant at all. I am not denigrating developers. we must have great developers but we also must have users; testers; qa; etc. and then we need the guy to coordinate everything.

I don't have people skills either but I don't regard myself as a social misfit and I don't get upset about it - although I do get upset with those who think people without people skills have no value to offer.

Jpeps is right. We have some great developers around here but we have very few, if any, with the skills to provide the 'Project manager', for want of a better term, to create that really great Puppy Linux Distro.

User avatar
rcrsn51
Posts: 13096
Joined: Tue 05 Sep 2006, 13:50
Location: Stratford, Ontario

#38 Post by rcrsn51 »

ICPUG wrote:I am not denigrating developers
but we have very few, if any, with the skills to provide the 'Project manager', for want of a better term, to create that really great Puppy Linux Distro.
Again, I don't understand this. How can you take a group of strangers, assign them the arbitrary title of "developer" and then claim to know what skill set they do or do not have?

Please define "developer". Is it anyone who knows how to type "make"? Or knows some gtkdialog? How does knowing those things disqualify you from being able to work with other people?

User avatar
greengeek
Posts: 5789
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2010, 09:34
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

#39 Post by greengeek »

gcmartin wrote:AND, thanks @Jpeps for your offer of Treasurer and your opening monetary contribution to go toward a paid site.
It was me that offered the money (although I do recognise that $NZ aren't worth as much as $Aus :-) )
jpeps was offering to MANAGE the money. That's collaboration in action :-)
But if people are happy with freeware, that's cool.

jpeps
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat 31 May 2008, 19:00

#40 Post by jpeps »

greengeek wrote:It was me that offered the money (although I do recognise that $NZ aren't worth as much as $Aus :-) )
jpeps was offering to MANAGE the money. That's collaboration in action :-)
But if people are happy with freeware, that's cool.
greengeek: You can send me both your money AND your code, and rest assured that it will be managed properly. :)

Post Reply