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Collaborating as a team or group for Puppy good
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elroy


Joined: 02 Feb 2012
Posts: 374

PostPosted: Thu 06 Dec 2012, 22:45    Post subject:  

jpeps wrote:
elroy wrote:
And to me, to be fair (and, of course, this is my personal opinion), if you're taking, you should also be giving if at all possible.


Fortunately, you can do that very easily at Puppy Linux, without having to first ask permission from a group of "authorities" with their own personal agendas. If there's something that can be improved, you'll get feedback to that effect from users. That makes it a win-win situation.

Yes, and that's the beauty of the murga forums. You may get thrashed if so deserving, but you're more than likely to get positive, useful feedback. I've used the Arch forums, and while certainly very useful, I must say that in comparison, the puppy murga forum is more friendly for the newbie. It's because of this that, as a forum, murga is of utmost value to myself. But I must be honest, the Arch wiki is without peer at present. I applaud those that are taking the effort to make the puppy wiki as usable as possible, but to begrudge the Arch wiki would be unrealistic. It is very thorough, and at present has no peer.
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Monsie


Joined: 01 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Dec 2012, 05:31    Post subject: Collaborating as a team or group for Puppy good  

Here is an article that looks at some of the hosts for open source projects: http://opensource.com/life/12/11/code-hosting-comparison Considering that the article was published three days ago, it seems rather timely with respect to this thread.

While thinking about hosts for Puppy based projects, it occurs to me that many people want to have a place to call our own, rather than meet up at SourceForge, Google Code, or some other well known public website. That being the case, consider the merits of using Raffy's site... Why not transform it to be the meeting place for Puppy enthusiasts to collaborate on specific projects.... projects that originate from the discussions that evolve here at the Forum?

More food for thought,
Monsie

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disciple

Joined: 20 May 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Dec 2012, 07:45    Post subject:  

Quote:
While still young compared to SourceForge, GitHub has become the de facto host for open source projects, with over 4.2 million repositories at the time of writing. GitHub's strength is their tagline, 'Social Coding'. On GitHub, it's trivial to make a copy of another developer's project, make changes to that project, and then submit those changes using GitHub's pull request system.

This thing about being the "de facto host" sounds suspicious to me. I wonder if that 4.2 million includes every clone of every repository...

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disciple

Joined: 20 May 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Dec 2012, 08:18    Post subject: Re: Collaboration in Puppyland has great benefit  

And since we're almost back on the subject:
greengeek wrote:
In the interests of longterm stability I think it is important to look for a collaborative platform that does not fall prey to what we have seen over the last couple of years.

Lots of valuable Puppy info got lost when the FBI took down MegaUpload. Google and others are coming under greater pressure to "spy and control". Lot's of people have found their valuable data locked up and unable to be accessed.

Free offerings, including Google (microsoft's mortal enemy) are a natural target for corporate and governmental interference. I just think thought should be given to a paid service that is less likely to fall prey to these risks.

1. I struggle a little with the comparison between MegaUpload and something like Google Code or Sourceforge.
Sites like MegaUpload were always widely regarding (including by their users) as being primarily a tool for copyright infringement: leasing a ship to the "pirates". But I don't see people accusing sourceforge and google code of being tools for copyright or patent infringement. They are a lot more "respectable".
2. I guess I'm taking both sides of an argument here, but from what I could see the heavy users of MegaUpload were typically paying users, so I don't think you can say it was an easy target because it was a free service. Was it even a particularly easy target? It didn't even have a shortage of money to defend itself, but having money doesn't help. The US government thinks it is God and that the law doesn't apply to it, so it can just steal everyone's files...

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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 14:10    Post subject:  

Thanks to all as we move the emotion out of the discussion and focus on Collaboration methods. This is evidenced by comments over the last couple days.

Firstly, can a collaboration model exist where members "equally" sit at a working/conference table to contribute as much as they can for a common effort? Does this require a Project leader or can the working table be the "project leader" with all table members working toward goal?

Next, if this can be thought of as a good experiment, which tool (site) can be utilized so that we can track each's contribution as the project morphs to product landing in the PLDF (our forum). Would this experiment of table members contributing freely in both definition and goal be workable?

Be reminded, that as with any radical approach, there is periods of newness without any past evidence to go on. But, open source and the internet and now tools that are freely available can allow a change in how things are done that were not possible in past models of doing stuff.

I think all here are peering at its possibilities ... albeit from differing vantages....but still peering. Step back a little and relook at what you are all saying and I think you can begin to see a new path where teaming can become 2nd nature.

Here to help
Edit: P.S. I am not directing at anyone with my first sentence. It is merely a general statement, not aimed anywhere!!!

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 15:17    Post subject:  

gcmartin wrote:
Thanks to all as we move the emotion out of the discussion and focus on Collaboration methods. This is evidenced by comments over the last couple days.

Here to help

gcmartin, no offense, but am I correct in assuming that you have no experience working with groups in this capacity?
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Minnesota

Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Posts: 313

PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 20:04    Post subject: cart before the horse?  

Just an observation. Is this thread a bit of cart before the horse? Let us define what we want before we find where and who to design it.

I have been observing and using Linux for a long time. Been in this business a lot longer. I think before you worry about finding a group to design a new flavor... you should consider what is desired.

As long as it is difficult for any one other than a developer to add new programs to a flavor or Linux... you will never have mass acceptance.

As we all know it is nearly impossible to find a program to do xxx and simply load it to our preferred flavor of Puppy or any Linux.

I believe the cooperative effort should be directed on more than a new flavor of Puppy. It should be a flavor that incorporates or assists the USER in having a PUPPY that is extremely easy to update in terms of new applications. No I am not referring to a repository of selected applications. I am referring to the thousands of program that exist in the world. ONE CLICK, save and run.


For instance. I would love to see a full blown database. Where I can take my existing thousands of forms and run. I would love to be able to ONE click a new application. I would love to one click for printer recognition (an old flavor of Linus used to auto detect, and load the correct drivers at start up time, similar to auto detecting of video).

In short. What is needed is a collaborative effort to make Puppy easier to use, easier to update, and easier to play with flavor of Linux.

It is a pure shame that between the many flavors of the month, you can not run x program. It must be "Customized" for each flavor. Yes, I know this is not just a Puppy issue. But until it is rectified, Puppy and Linux will never become a real competitor.

Much progress has been accomplished in the past few years. But this is not a plug and play system as far as additional software is concerned.

Can we start a list of what we would like to see? Pie in the sky? Then see if the items can be checked off. To start any project we need to conceive of what we want.

Start of a list:

One click install.
Killer applications, such as DataBase
One click Printer Install.
Clean up some of the forms to make them more user friendly and remove unneeded keystrokes.

......

Next?
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disciple

Joined: 20 May 2006
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 20:46    Post subject:  

Quote:
As we all know it is nearly impossible to find a program to do xxx and simply load it to our preferred flavor of Puppy or any Linux.


Isn't the whole point of the modern puppies based on Debian/Ubuntu/Slackware/etc that you can easily install anything from that distro's repositories? Does it not work most of the time?

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jamesbond

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 21:27    Post subject:  

Everybody who is everybody should know Michael Abrash. Long read, but very interesting in relation (or should I say, in contrast) to this thread.
http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/valve-how-i-got-here-what-its-like-and-what-im-doing-2/
To save your time, start reading from "Valve is different" section, onwards.

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec 2012, 22:59    Post subject:  

Great read. Just dive in and do it....
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darkcity


Joined: 23 May 2010
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PostPosted: Sun 09 Dec 2012, 10:36    Post subject:  

Great article, I would like to know more about how Valve works.

Not all the work involved it creating an OS is interesting or innovative.

Some the more tedious work can be done by working smarter. Like having a system to track features and bugs - instead of it being spread out over a forum. Other things may require paying people, perhaps like maintaining repositories. Then there are costs like running a server.

Many distributions have a foundation which can collect funds for the project. But with Puppy is down to donating to individual developers.

https://www.archlinux.org/donate/
http://vectorlinux.com/donations
http://store.slackware.com/cgi-bin/store

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sun 09 Dec 2012, 11:56    Post subject:  

darkcity wrote:


Some the more tedious work can be done by working smarter. Like having a system to track features and bugs - instead of it being spread out over a forum.


Development teams for large projects have a number of services like Bugzilla, etc., that they can employ. Typically, apps get stripped to minimize size at the user level. Forums are for different types of issues mainly related to user experience. The "one click" proponents generally don't know how to use a terminal.
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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1047

PostPosted: Sun 09 Dec 2012, 14:23    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
gcmartin wrote:

Are we at a maturity-level of PLDF to step-out in investing in such an effort?

gcmartin,
This is not how it works.
Is not for you, me and the "treasurer" (kudos Laughing ) to tell/advise TaZoC, 01Micko, JamesBond etc what and how.
Nobody is going to build our pupplet!

Try this instead (with this order).
1) Build what you can.
2) Tell (concept) what you want to build, show (code) how you go about it and where you are at (prototype).
3) Ask for help where you can not do it yourself (for whatever reason)
4) Ask for alternative technical suggestions/improvements/impementations
5) Invite (usually privately) people that contribute to join
6) If things start moving to the direction you want and can not be accommodated by the current structures, try to make it an "organization" (ie website, wiki, bug-tracker, IRC channel, mailing list and eventually forum).

PS: make sure you have a lot of time and some disposable income.


gcmartin wrote:
Don't take this wrongly, but, I think that approach is not a very good one. And because I say this doesn't mean that your comments are not of value. They are...

I see what you are suggesting, but, this is what is already done in Puppyland and there are many examples of this.

What you offer is similar to what has been going on.

I am suggesting true collaboration. This starts with a definition. One way of looking at a definition is to look at a starting point of what the developers I suggest already have done, understand, and are clear on. As a team we dont "tell" them what to do...instead we work with them working from a documented design point and working in such a way where everyone contributes what they can to the whole.

Its not just a slapping of packs together or just using a particular repo. Its about looking at what is to be achieved, the audience intended, and using the creativity of the forum, collaborating (at least willing to) for addressing objective.

I'm not trying to talk over someone's heads, here. And, I am not trying to suggest that because one does/doesn't write code he shouldn't be discussing a collaboration project either.

We talking about finding a methodology to work together and giving an honest try at finding approaches for useful work which could become generally available and have enough meat on the bones that everyone can "ride the dog". Much of the prior efforts were done using old approaches and old methodologies. With the open-sources tools and free collaboration tools, this community can achieve working as a team for common useful good.

It will take a willingness to want to work together.

P.S. How did anyone get the idea that "I" (as in eye) suggesting telling a project leader what to do? Is this a funny that I am missing or was someone trying to make a genuine comment?

AND, thanks @Jpeps for your offer of Treasurer and your opening monetary contribution to go toward a paid site. But, I think that as an Open source project team, we MAY be able to get collaboration site areas for free, if, of course, we carry this forward.


I think there is one point that has been completely absent from the talks here. I think everyone is for collaboration here. However the hard truth is that I would venture that 75% of the people here are unable to truly collaborate. This has nothing to do with personality or antyhing of the sort. It comes down to a simple issue of who has the technical ability to actually offer something. There has been talking amonst the Lighhouse Devs of trying to set something up so we can work together, but after talking about it something rather simple came up. In our world of puppylinux, there really isnt much 'code collaboration' that can take place. We arent working together on code projects that often. The one that did seem to come to mine was the SFS-load-on-the-fly program where a bunch of devs pitched in. But even without GIT or FOSSIL or other coding tools everyone managed to make it work smoothly. In most puppies there really isnt much actually code editing by multiple people. You dont need to be a coder to build a puppy. You can just be knowledgeable in linux and you can take slacko or presice, strip what you dont want out, add in what you want; and presto you have a new version.

And from what I see with most puppy projects thats what happens. One person puts something together, and users ask for apps, etc. Other devs pitch in and help by packing up apps and doing that. But most of the time users are just installing and using. Sure they report back when something doesnt work properly, but thats not exactly collaboration. When the majority is simply clicking to install and then going away to do their own thing... can there be much collaboration? In puppy land because of its fractured nature of development (which I believe is a strength); there are too many different methodologies for all the devs to collab on a single project. For myself, I do things a certain way because I'm trying to learn something that way. I've been working with JamesBond on a project, and as much as I'd like to help more... he's just so much more skilled than me at designing a puppy from the ground up that most of the work has been on him and not on me. Of course we worked out something privately so we are both happy... but the fact is that even amongst people who do develop here... its still going to be imbalanced.

So of what good is GIT or FOSSIL going to be?
What we seem to have every so often is someone steping up saying that 'the people' need more of an input. And its disguised in a way about choice and power being given to the people and not in the devs hands. Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news here... but reality is the people need the devs to build the stuff since they lack the skill themselves. Users cant really collaborate with devs on a puppy version, because they have nothing to offer. So what we'd have is a dev taking orders from dozens of people about how something should be done. And yes I used the word 'orders' on purpose... If the dev is just doing what other people want with no care for his own thoughts... then he/she isnt taking suggestions, they are taking orders.

So coming back to the 'collaboration' issue... how can people with no skill collaborate with people that have the skill? In the corperate world, you will see no coders working to design and lead a coding team. And the coders have no problem with that because they are getting paid. When they leave work, come home to work on their own projects and wishes... they dont want to again be told what to do in their own free time which is supposed to be for their enjoyment.

So when you have an unbalanced field, how can everyone work together equally? As was brought up in the past... the whole crapola about a 'symbiotic relationship'. A relationship that is symbiotic in any venture requires equal give and take from all members. So in the issue of a community collaboration, what can the users or non coders offer the coders that is equal to what the coders are giving everyone else with their time and skill.
GCmartin you say that people should 'work with' developers... what does that mean to you? Using you and me as an example: if you tell me what to do and then I go do it... that not you working with me. thats me working for you. So what can you do to work with me; if Im the one doing all the coding work, and you are just sitting at home saying what you want done.
(I used us as an example so that the pronouns didnt get confusing)

I'm not all doom and gloom though about this idea... If someone wants to make a run at this, I'll gladly donate server space on one of my servers for them to set up the site and run it. While I dont think it'll work... I"ll gladly offer the server up for someone to try.

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greengeek

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PostPosted: Sun 09 Dec 2012, 15:37    Post subject:  

Q5sys wrote:
Users cant really collaborate with devs on a puppy version, because they have nothing to offer
I think there are many cases where a user does have a lot to offer - because their feedback DOES shape the end product.

I will offer a specific example - sometime ago gcmartin was discussing the idea of using Puppy as a PXE server to allow other PCs to boot from the network. This was a foreign concept to me, and he offered to help me learn how to set up my puppy to do this, by taking me through the process step by step, using a "live document" on Google docs (which I had never previously used..)

He told me to feel free to modify the document in any way that seemed meaningful to me, and that other contributors could do the same - with the intention that the document would reflect the various different understandings and skills of the contributors.

I wasn't just following a tutorial - I felt that I was helping write it.

I felt empowered by that process of direct feedback and was successful in gaining a good understanding of the PXE process. It was more than me just following a set of instructions - I felt I had a way to graft my learning experience directly into the PXE setup process / tutorial.

Most importantly I realised that Google docs was a fantastic "live" method of sharing constantly changing information. It helped to act as an information hub, with input coming from multiple directions. The PLDF tends to be a sequential (and often fragmented) method of aggregating information, and any tools that expand or improve it are a great idea (this is not a criticism of PLDF at all).

Personally I was not happy to have to sign up for a google ID etc because I tend to be a little paranoid, but at least I Iearned that the actual collaborative process that Google docs provided was very valuable, and I was pleased that gcmartin did not belittle my contribution in any way - he actively encouraged me to inject my thoughts into his project.

Quote:
So what we'd have is a dev taking orders from dozens of people about how something should be done. And yes I used the word 'orders' on purpose... If the dev is just doing what other people want with no care for his own thoughts... then he/she isnt taking suggestions, they are taking orders.

Collaboration only works if it is voluntary for all concerned. I am assuming that gcmartin is suggesting that certain specific goals be set and that any contributor be able to include or withdraw themselves at any time. This is just what the PLDF offers, but I think he is suggesting that there are other methods that assist the process in a material way.

Quote:
So when you have an unbalanced field, how can everyone work together equally?

I guess the contributions don't have to be equal. It would be interesting to see what the outcome would be if a project was DEFINED and just left up to nobody / anybody. I think that is the crux of jamesbonds post about Valve.

Nobody feels "put-upon" because their involvement is not "required" - it is voluntary. In that Valve article they talk about having their desks on wheels so that it is quick and easy for an individual to include or absent themselves from a particular project. Which raises the question for me of exactly WHERE does the project reside? WHERE does the information actually exist? Do they use some form of database to manage their projects, or rely on the collective memories of individuals. Who tracks the progress?

If someone had a specific Puppy project in mind, what would be the best way to assemble a skeleton for the project to build on? Is it possible to use something like Visio as an adjunct to PLDF? Or are we stuck with the sequential unrolling of the process in an adhoc way?

Is there some way to have a central hub (Visio, Google Doc etc etc) that spawns multiple PLDF threads, yet weaves them into the final project, just as it was DEFINED in the first place.

Yes, this would defy the creative and multidirectional tendencies of the current PLDF, but might suit specific targeted purposes.
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jpeps

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PostPosted: Sun 09 Dec 2012, 15:58    Post subject:  

greengeek wrote:


If someone had a specific Puppy project in mind, what would be the best way to assemble a skeleton for the project to build on? Is it possible to use something like Visio as an adjunct to PLDF? Or are we stuck with the sequential unrolling of the process in an adhoc way?


In the Valve article, Abrash had to find new ways to achieve what he wanted, thus learning new skills in the process. That's what "creativity" is about, doing something unique, vs working in a firm where you hammer out assignments.

Some people function better in collectives, where decisions are made by consensus. I don't think you'll find many creative individuals within the ranks. Many programmers are also artists, musicians.
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