Pussy: potentially a Puppy with a perfect package manager

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sickgut
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#1721 Post by sickgut »

hi people

debian live wheezy B2 has been released, i will test this today and it may very well have fixed the non persistent features. I hope this one works. Its about 80mb larger than the previous wheezy live iso i have tried so something is very different.

if this works then the world is ours. mwuahahahahha.
world domination, a seat on the united nations, the right to conduct a private army, fame, a street named after us, infact a whole city named after us with streets named after pussy linux developers, constant donations of nice kittens to raise our moral, 2% of the worlds total GDP donated to our private accounts, a big budget movie detailing the take over of the world by pussy linux and pussy becoming the number one used OS in the world and making MS and Apple go bust. And thats all in the first month, even before the first new Pussy version is released.... MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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sickgut
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HDD install, maybe?

#1722 Post by sickgut »

not having any luck with persistence with this new debian live

however i have stumbled across something that i misunderstood previously

normal debian live iso's have hdd installers built in.
i figured i couldnt use this because of my modifications and there seemed to be all the included packages in the /pool/ dir of the iso. However these are not actual packages needed to run the OS, they are just the .udeb packages that are only used during HDD installs, and the actual OS that gets installed is the same as what is in filesystem.squashfs

if i am correct here, and i keep pussy in one squashfs called filesystem.squashfs, this info would be installed to the hdd and...........
this is HDD install in action.

the install process lets you partition, format and install grub or lilo, the whole thing.

im sure this will work but i have been wrong alot in my life so quote me at your peril, however.... with newbie level hdd installs being the only problem that i see has been holding pussy back being potentially solved here, i am quite excited.

altho this hdd install method is rather old school, it is still hdd installing. Most distros including puppy let you run the live OS, then click an icon and the hdd install starts, but this old way you need to select install at the grub menu where you usually select to boot pussy with copy to ram or not or with persistence or not etc.

ok ppl ill keep yall informed

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atv
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Debian unstable breanch

#1723 Post by atv »

I will either need to move to a new live base such as Ubuntu... the thought makes me puke on myself and break out in boils of sulfur.
This work seems interesting...did you look into it?
Release Notes for siduction 2012.2 - ...Riders on the Storm. Siduction is a full live-distribution with an integrated installer, based on Debian's unstable branch, and we try to release snapshots quarterly.

Siduction 2012.2 Razor-Qt is the latest flavour that joins our regular release cycle after seeing a dev-release in the summer. Razor-Qt is a new fast/light desktop environment using the QT4 toolkit.
http://siduction.org/index.php?module=n ... 15&lang=en

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sickgut
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Re: Debian unstable breanch

#1724 Post by sickgut »

atv wrote:
I will either need to move to a new live base such as Ubuntu... the thought makes me puke on myself and break out in boils of sulfur.
This work seems interesting...did you look into it?
Release Notes for siduction 2012.2 - ...Riders on the Storm. Siduction is a full live-distribution with an integrated installer, based on Debian's unstable branch, and we try to release snapshots quarterly.

Siduction 2012.2 Razor-Qt is the latest flavour that joins our regular release cycle after seeing a dev-release in the summer. Razor-Qt is a new fast/light desktop environment using the QT4 toolkit.
http://siduction.org/index.php?module=n ... 15&lang=en
i assessed the viability of an intermediate release that would be based on Ubuntu rather than Debian Live but there are some glaringly obvious things that make this a bad idea:

When compared to Debain Live Wheezy, Ubuntu 12.04 and 12.10 uses way more RAM in its barest form. Debain Wheezy uses less than 50mb RAM, while Ubuntu uses 230MB or so. If building on this with Xorg and server apps running in the background etc the Debian Wheezy would bloat to maybe 120mb of RAM to boot to the desktop, while Ubuntu would be 400MB, making it completely impractical for computers with 256mb RAM, even 512B RAM would be struggling once you click on something and actually want to run or use a program. Ubuntu just gets more bloated the more you add to it, while Debian remains much slimmer.

Ubuntu packages are much bigger than Debian ones, this means that it would be near impossible to make a complete solution OS fit on a CDROM, while the Debian based solution (take the Pussy Xtra for example) fits snugly on a CDROM.

The next version of Ubuntu will not support Live running from a DVD, also it will no longer fit on a CDROM. Have a look at what Ubuntu have planned, its sickening. This means that if i did make an Ubuntu based OS, it would be a dead end once off. I would rather start out how i would like to continue rather than distro hop for every release.

Ubuntu OSes now track all your keystrokes and uploaded them to a server so that they can provide a "service" and your commonly entered words are entered into the Ubuntu search options. Ubuntu has nonfree firmware in their kernel.

Altho Debian Wheezy Live isnt ready yet, it can be used without persistence and it is very fast. There is a noticeable drop in performance when moving to Ubuntu. This equates to an added 15 secs bootup time, and that is to a bare OS with no desktop. The current Pussy Xtra boots in 11 seconds on my low end laptop and this is faster than most puppies, infact its one of the fastest booting linux OSes in in the world. It would be a step back to pad this out to half a minute.

If i was to move a head with an Ubuntu base, it would be a waste of time because as soon as the Debian Live Wheezy was fixed i would start all over again and use that.

A brief preview of Ubuntu 12.04 and 12.10 as a desktop system was a joke. It was so broken that it was a joke. There are intolerable performance issues, for instance, with a quadcore AMD FX CPU and 8GB RAM system, pressing f2 + ctrl + alt to bring up a terminal login, there was a 20 second delay. It seemed there where bugs in every app i used and looking on the forums, the constant theme seemed to be that there was no interest in fixing bugs but users are told to wait for the next Ubuntu release. Even one of the oldest demos, the "BB" demo (ascii art using libAA graphical demo with music) didnt work. The response from devs? who uses those kinds of apps anyway?

Ubuntu simply releases a new version every 6 months and doesnt fix their existing versions. Take Ubuntu 12.04 for example, if you use the small standard iso, there is a 2 or 3 minute pause while it searches for network while booting. This is a LTS release, meaning long term support, however there is no interest in fixing this bug.

If using Ubuntu, the new version of Pussy Xtra would not fit on a cdrom, i would either have to remove half the applications or migrate to a dvd instead.

Pussy is 100% debian compatible and if i used Ubuntu then it would be 100% Ubuntu compatible. This is no Dpup or Upup or Puppy Lucid where its built from debian or ubuntu packages but the rest of the OS is custom Puppy scripts and custom Puppy kernel and therefore breaking compatibility with their parent OSes. These OSes are not 100% debian or Ubuntu compatible. Pussy is 100% compatible with its parent OS, and users can even login to debian support chat rooms and any advice given will work. !00% debian kernel and nothing in it break any compatibility at all. This is not a hybrid OS, just a very wise use and bending of Debian, make to kind of feel like using Puppy, the same speed, almost the same disk footprint but better software compatibility, it even uses less RAM than Puppy. 42MB is enough to boot to full Xorg desktop with all the server stuff running in the back ground. Puppy doesnt even boot with 42MB RAM.

sorry for the rant but turning to Ubuntu is out of the question, and i feel dirty for even considering it.

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#1725 Post by sickgut »

new release of debian Live Wheezy B2 still doesnt have persistence working.

I could using live-build scripts to force this but this moves us away from 100% compatibility and will isolate users from getting advice from debian support chat rooms.

It is possible to implement my own live saving system (take compressed save file in the current Pussy for example) but this is only practical with high ram systems as the copy on write resides in ram and you eventually run out of ram, unles the copy on write (cow) is somehow purged at the discretion of the user. This would again, break our 100% compatibility with Debian.

Example: You have 256mb RAM, the OS is taking up 120MB and you are downloading a 1gb file. The download gets part the way through and just stops, this is because there is no legit persistence and nothing is being constantly saved to disk, its being saved to ram, you cant fit 1GB file in 256mb RAM.

Squeeze is a dead end and does not have the features needed for Puppy to power ahead and become better. Looks like waiting for Wheezy is the only option.

Ok peeps, ill check in later on.

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david_katelansky
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Saving a Pussy Linux session

#1726 Post by david_katelansky »

I'm seeing some posts about Pussy Linux sessions not being saved to the live-rw file. I don't have any experience with saving to the live-rw file because I went the full install route. I created a partition on a flash drive, called live-rw. My sessions get saved automatically to the flash drive, even though the install is on my hard drive (as promised on http://thepussycatforest.info).

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Re: Saving a Pussy Linux session

#1727 Post by sickgut »

david_katelansky wrote:I'm seeing some posts about Pussy Linux sessions not being saved to the live-rw file. I don't have any experience with saving to the live-rw file because I went the full install route. I created a partition on a flash drive, called live-rw. My sessions get saved automatically to the flash drive, even though the install is on my hard drive (as promised on http://thepussycatforest.info).
Glad you are having success. I am not very articulate when i explain things. If you have the live-rw file on any partition and it is not placed in a directory then it will work, however this has its drawbacks and its benefits. You can backup all your saved date by zipping and copying or just copying the one file to somewhere else for future reference but with FAT partitions having limit of 4gb singular file sizes, all of a sudden live-rw file doesnt look so attractive.

Your method of using a dedicated partition is better in my opinion. However now you have a successful HDD install, you may find that the compressed save file option in the catroll-panel will work nicely as well. This is more of an easy remaster tool than a save file method tho.

I think currently the only bug in the standard pussy-xtra2 that may be noticeable is the rox filer focus problem, but this will be fixed in the next release.

its strange, its been a year now since pussy was last updated and when googling it, i see more people are talking about it than ever and the downloads from my website certainly have been rather steady. I spose some plants still grow even when you dont water them. I think pussy is a cactus.

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Re: Saving a Pussy Linux session

#1728 Post by greengeek »

sickgut wrote:I think pussy is a cactus.
<<Owwwwch>>

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david_katelansky
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I found Pussy Linux While Binging

#1729 Post by david_katelansky »

Sickgut,
I'd been in the Windows world for about two years, and hadn't touched Linux during that time. ...but when I started using Linux again, I binged (still MS affected) the Puppy Linux forums and came across a really great looking cat picture. That's what got me interested in Pussy Linux; the cat close up from your desktop.

Dave

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#1730 Post by nooby »

Sickgut, AFAIK didn't someone at the Debian Chat promise that in future
they will allow one to be frugal booting and root and still be able to save
to a save file. But lately you seems to have got inside info
that that promise was reconsidered and the Devs changing mind on it?

Is that something you wild guess or did you get in contact with one
of those that really know how they talk about it officially?

Would be sad if they have that incredibly locked view on it?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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sickgut
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Re: I found Pussy Linux While Binging

#1731 Post by sickgut »

david_katelansky wrote:Sickgut,
I'd been in the Windows world for about two years, and hadn't touched Linux during that time. ...but when I started using Linux again, I binged (still MS affected) the Puppy Linux forums and came across a really great looking cat picture. That's what got me interested in Pussy Linux; the cat close up from your desktop.

Dave
i made a point of adding no asthetic things to pussy until its finished because it detracts from the real issues and actually making the OS. (the OS still isnt finished yet, waiting for next working release of debian live to continue) Also if snazzy themes are added, they would probably need to be overhauled again on the next release or whatever. However, that cat pic was perfect, because the desktop icons where in the top left hand corner of the screen and the cat was on the bottom right ready to pounce on the icons, it was absolutely perfect and so i added it unaltered.

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sickgut
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#1732 Post by sickgut »

nooby wrote:Sickgut, AFAIK didn't someone at the Debian Chat promise that in future
they will allow one to be frugal booting and root and still be able to save
to a save file. But lately you seems to have got inside info
that that promise was reconsidered and the Devs changing mind on it?

Is that something you wild guess or did you get in contact with one
of those that really know how they talk about it officially?

Would be sad if they have that incredibly locked view on it?
hi nooby (and for the benefit of everyone else i have explained things in detail)

the live system is being overhauled, with the next wheezy release that will work (the OS works but not persistence at the moment) they will also leave enough backwards compatible features and will work just like old Pussy except for newly named dirs in the /live folder and the compressed save file remaster thingy in the catroll-panel will need to be changed to account for the name change of the dirs.

from what i gather, the NTFS boot and write back to that partition thing will be fixed in wheezy live.

But while having backwards compatibility with the old pussy live-rw system, the official method of using save files/ persistence/ save partitions is now changed to "persistence"(either the file or partition named this) and the file or partition must have with in it a file called "persistence.conf" and this new file needs to contain the dir names of every dir you want to be persistent.

when i first started posting about wheezy live, i didnt realize that backwards compatibility with the old live-rw system would be included and so then i was considering using Ubuntu, this will now not happen, i will under no circumstances use Ubuntu as a base.

Yes, i could add more things and fix up the current Pussy but i due to sickgut's law of efficiency (never double up and do the same thing twice if waiting a little longer and doing it once will give a better result) i am holding out till wheezy is working

Once wheezy live is actually working, then Pussy will use it but still keep the old live-rw way of doing things because backwards compatibility will be there still, however the release after wheezy "jesse" will not have backwards compatibility and we will need to move to the new system.

i think one of the reasons they are overhauling wheezy live is to fix that darn NTFS write protection issue. they actually understand now that some people like to have a live system working from a HDD and even dual boot with windows.

in the mean time im just waiting. The next evolution of pussy is a dvd sized OS with everything you could possibly want in it. Wheezy has new enough verisons of software and much larger selection than squeeze. Squeeze is so old now that i tried compiling new webtv things and other apps for it and they all require a complete /lib upgrade and this would completely ruin pussies 100% debian compatible rule.

so the plan is to jump on wheezy as soon as it works (even while it is in "testing" and not the official "stable") and this could be a practical flagship base for pussy for possibly a few years and by the time Wheezy is the "stable" debian OS, Pussy will already be finished and ready to go before other OSes that use Debian Live stable as a base.

root/ boot/ frugal will work in the next debian live, but right now they are having issues getting persistence to work, but it will be sorted out and as soon as it is, pussy will be revamped.

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#1733 Post by nooby »

wow that would be good.
thanks for such detailed answer.
no need to hurry better wait until
them sorted out and good that they
realize a working live is good to have
as a way to show people who hesitate
to format their HD with Ms windows on
in case they need it for upgrading the Smartphone
and digital Camera and such that insist to only
use ms win so good to keep just in case.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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sickgut
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#1734 Post by sickgut »

Hello people.

Ok so i cant stand it any longer. I need to start working on the newer pussy base but debian wheezy live doesnt have their persistence features working yet.

I am going to go ahead with the new Pussy even without persistence and create a small server/ console only (may have Xorg as an option with JWM installed so that users can use synaptic and or other graphical tools to install stuff easier, this could be used as a base to build your own custom Pussy), an equivalent to Pussy Xtra that will be the size of a CDROM and a super Pussy that will be the size of a DVD.

But why do this if persistence isnt working yet with that Debian Live Wheezy base?

Well i can still do all the research i need to do, and i will take notes this time, i will keep a log of everything i have added and or taken away or edited or installed. So when Debian Live Wheezy does sort their persistence features out, i need only follow these instructions that i kept a log of to make the new fully working Pussies. 95% of the work making a Pussy is figuring stuff out, the next 5% is actually typing things or installing thing etc. So once i have the log/ instructions to make the new Pussy when wheezy is fully working, it should take more than a day or 2 to get Pussy refitted to the new working wheezy.

I will upload this newer Pussy if it is finished before Debian Live Wheezy is fully working, so everyone can take a look at it. Hell we may even figure out our own persistence method, i have a few ideas that i would like to try.

HDD install may be an option, even at a newbie level and even from within Windows (if i am to believe the debian live documentation, which i have learned you cannot under any circumstances believe anything in a debian live manual at all).

I think the HDD install will have debian branding all over it but hey, its still a nice feature, and i prefere users to actually know that Pussy is a form of Debian and 100% compatible so that they know they can get support for Pussy from Debian gurus and install any Debian program etc and it will work.

also HDD install give you the option of installing alive or non live normal system. If you select normal then you dont have to worry about persistence because data will get saved to your HDD just like if you where using a full install Puppy.

i dont have any dates i can give out yet, i dont know when wheezy will have its persistence working and i dont know how long it will take me to make a new Pussy, but rest assured, i am starting immediately.

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#1735 Post by Bob_the_plumber »

This is the right thing to do. Message approved by Chow Ming Image


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Re: Persistence problem in wheezy resolved?

#1737 Post by sickgut »

Thanks, a January 5th revision of wheezy debian live has been released also, however due to the fact that fix you linked to is from January 10th, i presume that this fix has not been carried over to public usable live wheezy yet, also the newest one on their site is version-b3 while this fix states that version-b4 is being used.

Whatever the case, thanks for the update and link as this pretty much means that the b4 or b5 or whatever will be released with this fix included very soon. Ill try the fix in that URL to see if the same thing can fix the current version... fingers crossed... hope this works. If not its no biggy, atleast we know that no matter what, in a few weeks max this issue will be sorted.

Testing the Jan 5th b3 today with that listed fix, wish me luck.

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Re: Persistence problem in wheezy resolved?

#1738 Post by sickgut »

Tried this with the Wheezy b3 from January 5th (latest public release) and no luck, soon as i modify the file that needs to be edited, it gives me boot errors and i also cant attain root access due to some kind of sudo problem. I have no idea whatsoever what the hell sudo has got to do with changing the persistence file labels but it craps out.

looks like ill have to wait for the next release, hopefully it will be soon

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Re: Persistence problem in wheezy resolved?

#1739 Post by sickgut »

sickgut wrote:
Tried this with the Wheezy b3 from January 5th (latest public release) and no luck, soon as i modify the file that needs to be edited, it gives me boot errors and i also cant attain root access due to some kind of sudo problem. I have no idea whatsoever what the hell sudo has got to do with changing the persistence file labels but it craps out.

looks like ill have to wait for the next release, hopefully it will be soon
YAY!!!

debian live wheezy has been updated as of 20th January and is now the B4 version that can be modified to run with persistence working, hopefully its already patch, if not then i will try again to get this to work, if it does then new wheezy based pussy will be a reality very soon

fingers crossed

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#1740 Post by sickgut »

you know why i have pussy cat debian ghosts that keep sneaking into the pantry and eating all my tins of Spam?

Its because debian wheezy persistence is working and the ghosts are persistent also and looking for somewhere to save themselves frugally and on cdroms and usb sticks.

the new persistence system sucks tho. Like it works but there are some damn stupid features we will never use that makes it all way more complicated than it has to be.

I will list a comparison between the old school pussy squeeze live persistent and the new kind that is implemented by wheezy. I know the info here doubles up a little, because everyone knows how the old version worked, but im still listing the old and the new so that you guys can compare the two.

1.) old school live-rw
Setup syslinux or grub or whatever bootloader you like and add the
persistent tag to tell pussy to look for live-rw files.
Name any partition on your HDD or USB stick as live-rw and pussy will use this partition automatically to save stuff. You can make your own live-rw file and pussy will find this and save to it automatically. This is how you make a live-rw file:

use a terminal session to bring up the command line and cd to whatever mounted partition you want and do this:

dd if=/dev/null of=live-rw bs=1M seek=500
mkfs.ext2 -F live-rw

reboot to let pussy detect the live-rw file and you are done.

2.) new persistence system
add to your grub or syslinux or whatever bootloader you use, the following tag: persistence <--- note this is different from the persistent tag used in squeeze. Why the hell change something like that just for the sake of it?

label any partition on your HDD or USB stick etc as persistence. Place a file called persistence.conf on this partition with nano or leafpad or whatever and the syntax and formatting of this conf file is as follows... say you want /etc and /var and /usr to be persistent then set up the file like this:

/etc
/var
/usr

note: the dir / wont work (ie the entire filesystem) and /mnt and /media wont work either. WTF?

there is another way to setup the file:

# persistence backwards compatibility:
/ union,source=.

this way will make the entire filesystem persistent

Making the save file is the same as the live-rw mentioned above but change the name of the file to persistence. if you want the save file to work you need to add the persistence.conf file to the save file.

mount your persistent save file like this:

mkdir /test
mount -o loop persistence /test
cd /test
nano persistence.conf

lay out the dirs you want persistent in the format mentioned above:
/etc
/usr
/var

or enter this in the file:
# persistence backwards compatibility:
/ union,source=.

press ctrl + o to save the conf file

reboot the system to make this take effect.

The debian live people say wheezy is backwards compatible with the old live-rw files and partitions, i have tested this and its buggy as all hell.

Also note if there is no persistence.conf file added to your partition or save file then wheezy will try and add one, ths doesnt work correctly with the old live-rw files (even tho the documentation says it does) but this seems to work ok with the newer persistence file and if your lucky it will setup the conf file to contain this:

# persistence backwards compatibility:
/ union,source=.

but if you want it to work with no hassles, make the conf file yourself, as letting wheezy do this automatically doesnt work that great and may/ will probably fail.

again, god knows why the hell anyone would add this confusing stupid new persistence.conf setup thing rather than using the old method.

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