Slacko 5.4, UEFI and Windows 8

What works, and doesn't, for you. Be specific, and please include Puppy version.
Message
Author
JustGreg
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue 24 May 2005, 10:55
Location: Connecticut USA

Slacko 5.4, UEFI and Windows 8

#1 Post by JustGreg »

I had to buy for work a computer. Yes, the economic times is causing employees to buy computers for their workplace. Do not ask why, you will only get an old man foaming at the mouth. I got a Compaq (HP) CQ58 with AMD C-60 processor and 2 Gigabytes of memory. of course, Windows 8 came with it. I want to have Puppy Linux on it.

I have been researching and testing Windows 8 and UEFI. It is definitely different. Arch Linux has an ISO version that is supposed to boot under UEFI. However, it will not boot automatically. Once has to register it will the UEFI. Windows 8 has a tool (bcdedit), but, the documentation on how to use is hard to find and very limited.

I also found the Compaq CQ58 was set up at the factory to make it difficult for the end user to get to the BIOS setup. The time delay after POST testing to UEFI boot was set to zero (0) seconds. One had to be pressing the ESC key rapidly after pressing the power on. The BIOS setup is very different from previous ones that I have seen.

The BIOS setup does have a UEFI boot sequence entry. Of course the first one was the hard disk. That is changed now. The HP technical support people are not free with information on booting another operating system other than Windows 8. One gets lots of fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD). It is the old "why are you so silly to want to use something other than Windows". There is a UEFI Boot Device entry, which one would think allows one to select a device to directly from which to boot. NO, it goes to UEFI database and allows one only to use the entries there. One needs to update the UEFI database first.

To update UEFI database, one needs to use bcdedit. I have found the limited documentation on bcdedit (and bcdboot). However, when I try to get information on the current setup with bcdedit /enum, all I get is an error message telling me that I do not have access privileges to the bcd database. An end user can not make a change to the UEFI information. I checked and my account is an administrator one. I also check the settings for bcdedit and see that I should be able to execute it. Windows 8 with UEFI turns the personal computer into an appliance. One can do only what the manufacturer and Microsoft wants you to do. In many ways, this is similar to what happened to cars with the introduction of engine control computers. It also forces you to their service departments at their rates.

The Windows 8 file explorer has been setup not to display information on recovery UEFI partitions. One can use the console command terminal to get some information, but the UEFI partition is still hidden. One needs to remember the old MSDOS commands to use it. Under control panel, there is an Administrative Tool entry. This will get you to the System Configuration tool that will show the hard disk partitions. Surprise, surprise, the disk is set up with four (4) partitions based on the available information. There is a manufacturer's recovery partition (NTFS),
the UEFI partition (file system is not reported, but, by spec is fat32), the
normal Windows NTFS (maybe GUID) partition and a NTFS Recovery (maybe GUID) partition. The old trick of reducing the size of the Windows NTFS to free space for a Linux partition may no longer work. I do not know enough about the GUID scheme for hard disk partition to say if one could use that to create new partitions for Linux.

The BIOS does support Legacy Booting. But, once again, selecting that option brings up warnings with FUD. It appears to me the best way to run Linux on this Compaq is to replace the hard drive and install Linux on the new drive. The good news is the price of 64 Gigabyte solid state drives are coming down. I have one on order and that will be the next experiment.

Over coming the FUD, I did try the Legacy Boot option. They do not make it easy. There are several checks and one has to enter a four digit number to get to finally boot. Slacko 5.5 live cdrom booted properly and worked. I went back to the UEFI (called secure boot) and Windows did start. It took some time, but, came up.

There are two different approaches to UEFI booting in the Linux community. Redhat is providing signed (by Verisign) software that can be registered (if you can regisiter it with UEFI using bcdedit). Canonical (Ubuntu) is using signed-shim and Grub 2. The rub with signed-shim is it is signed and can be registered with UEFI. But, Grub 2 is not, and one then has to use mokmanager to create a key for the signed-shim database. Neither approaches is easy for a new user to use and
a mistake could be a real problem. In the past, I had to help people restore the MBR because they used Grub and inadvertently changed it preventing the useof Windows.

My hope is that Syslinux (with Isolinux and other parts) becomes a signed boot loader that allows any Linux to be started without multiple registrations. If Syslinux included a tool for UFEI database then installations could be easily done. We will have to wait on that one.

I will post any additional test results on the ideas that I have. If you have any thoughts on what may work, please post them. Thanks in advance for any help with this one.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!
Enjoy life, Just Greg
Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much

User avatar
8-bit
Posts: 3406
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2007, 03:37
Location: Oregon

#2 Post by 8-bit »

Your report helps in getting an idea of what one is up against in trying to install and be able to boot to Puppy/linux.
One thing that bothers me is that the option for Legacy Boot in the BIOS could be removed depending on how hard MS pushes the manufacturers.

And bcdedit can be a pain to understand and use.

I do not know if or how EasyBCD will get along with UEFI either.

I used EasyBCD to install Puppy on a Compaq desktop that had Vista installed.
And I have a live multi-session DVD of Puppy 5.28 that I can boot from and use on a Toshiba Satellite laptop that runs Win 7 64bit Home Premium.

The interesting thing to me is that when I bought the Toshiba Satellite 64bit duel core AMD processor 4 gigs of RAM, it was very very speedy in booting to the desktop.
After a few MS supposedly needed updates, that same laptop's booting has slowed to a crawl and even booting from a live DVD of Puppy Lucid 5.28 is slow although still faster than the Windows 64bit boot.

I let my daughter use the laptop for a while and am now wondering if it caught some malware that is setting up a virtual OS with hidden internet access.

I do not have any sensitive personal information on the laptop though.
It is just a matter of wanting my speed back as it is now slower booting than a single core laptop.

Anyway, keep us informed on your progress of getting a bootable install of Puppy with or without Win 8.

JustGreg
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue 24 May 2005, 10:55
Location: Connecticut USA

#3 Post by JustGreg »

Thank you for the reply, 8-bit. I have been inspecting the Windows XP system on my Acer Aspire computer. I have never gotten around to eliminating it. The space that I carved out for Puppy has been more than adequate. However, I did find that Windows XP (in recovery area partition) supported EFI boot and has a BCD database. I have used hexedit to review the contents of the BCD file. It does have references to the XP partitions. Which brings me to a question. Hopefully, someone can tell me how to get the GUID number for a partition. Does fdisk, cfdisk or GParted show the GUID information in GPT of a hard drive? If one of them does show GUID then how does one use it to get the information? Thanks for any help on this.

8-bit, here are some suggestions for the troublesome lap top. If you have a home router, then clear its logs. Turn off all other computers on the network, then turn on the lap top. Use another computer to inspect the router logs for what web sites has the lap top communicated. One can use IP address look up (web based, etc.) to find the out who is associated with the address. I did this awhile ago to show some IT people that Windows XP calls home to Microsoft at start up.

Alternatively, time the lap top start up time in an environment where it has no Internet connectivity. Do the same in an environment where it can connect to the Internet. If the no Internet connection start up time is significantly longer then other start up time, there is a high likelihood that it is calling home to someone. Checking the routing logs is the only way to determine where.

I hope the above helps you, 8-bit.
Enjoy life, Just Greg
Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much

User avatar
01micko
Posts: 8741
Joined: Sat 11 Oct 2008, 13:39
Location: qld
Contact:

#4 Post by 01micko »

JustGreg wrote:Hopefully, someone can tell me how to get the GUID number for a partition.
Arch Wiki wrote:GUID Partition Table (GPT) uses GUIDs (or UUIDs in linux world) to define partitions and its types
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/GU ... tion_Table

Here's how you get the UUID;

Code: Select all

# blkid /dev/sda1
/dev/sda1: LABEL="Slackware" UUID="c4440b44-d86a-4ecb-8878-5fa56f41cbf6" TYPE="ext3"
Obviously you need your device id in there.
JustGreg wrote:My hope is that Syslinux (with Isolinux and other parts) becomes a signed boot loader that allows any Linux to be started without multiple registrations. If Syslinux included a tool for UFEI database then installations could be easily done. We will have to wait on that one.
Hopefully we don't wait too long :) .
Arch Wiki wrote:Note: Syslinux UEFI support is present in version 6.00-preXX and is currently of alpha quality. See UEFI_Bootloaders#SYSLINUX for more info.
Ref: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Syslinux

I'll be keeping an eye on Arch Wiki :wink:

Cheers
Puppy Linux Blog - contact me for access

JustGreg
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue 24 May 2005, 10:55
Location: Connecticut USA

#5 Post by JustGreg »

Thank you, 01micko for the information. I will use it and if I have any luck I will post the results. I do have an idea that I will be trying. I will be testing bcdedit to see if it will work under WINE. Windows 8 is mostly a user interface change and the addition of Microsoft "apps" (a new version of the old DOS terminate and stay resident programs). I suspect most of the apps are there to help Microsoft data mining efforts. There is plenty of good money in finding out what those consumers like. I have found several Windows XP programs work without a problem under Windows 8.

If bcdedit does work under WINE, then it may be possible to register a version of Linux after a legacy boot. This may be a way to get Linux to run under UEFI.

Thank you for all your efforts on Slacko, 01micko.
Enjoy life, Just Greg
Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much

User avatar
8-bit
Posts: 3406
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2007, 03:37
Location: Oregon

#6 Post by 8-bit »

JustGreg,

You might, if you have not, read the thread on UEFI here.
That thread has some information and utilities that might be of interest in setting up UEFI for Puppy.

JustGreg
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue 24 May 2005, 10:55
Location: Connecticut USA

#7 Post by JustGreg »

Thanks 8-bit. I will read the page. I have tied to use bcdedit under Wine. It failed due to bcdedit being a 64 bit process that will not run under 32 bits. Oh well, off to do some reading.
Enjoy life, Just Greg
Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much

JustGreg
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue 24 May 2005, 10:55
Location: Connecticut USA

#8 Post by JustGreg »

I try blkid without any options. I got a list of all the partitions GUID numbers for my hard drive (sda). I did check the 128 bit numbers to those contained in the BCD database. The 128 bit numbers appear to be the certificate key value and not a partition GUID. Now to do some studying on how to use EFI tools.
Enjoy life, Just Greg
Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much

JustGreg
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue 24 May 2005, 10:55
Location: Connecticut USA

#9 Post by JustGreg »

I have reached a dead end. It seems the UEFI BIOS will not allow anything other then what is registered in the Microsoft BCD file. I have tried the EFI tools. I get a error message saying "Not registered". I have also tried the UEFI shell. UEFI shell is an Intel software product for managing and controlling the UEFI process. I tried the Intel documented UEFI shell installation to a USB flash drive. Same error message occurs. It appears this HP Compaq will only run under UEFI the HP Diagnostics and Microsoft PE bootmanager.

I did find something interesting. It was using Acronis software to produce an ISO that uses Microsoft PE environment to allow the ISO to boot under Windows 7. Is anyone familiar with the product? The Windows version is not free. So, I do not want to buy it before having some idea that it work.
Thanks for any help.
Enjoy life, Just Greg
Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#10 Post by nooby »

Much appreciated you started this thread.
Here in Sweden the big reseller chains have
cheap Win8 Laptop computers like this one
compaq-presario-cq58-15-6 for only 3000SEK some 380USD

http://www.elgiganten.se/product/datore ... cq58-241so

most likely same as HP Compaq Presario cq58-a10nr 15.6-Inch Laptop (Black)
http://www.amazon.com/HP-Compaq-Presari ... B0085RUYHE

for 380USD which are among the most cheap 15" screen versions here.

I have not asked if it has UEFI or have the older BIOS though.
But I expect it is UEFI

so hope as many as possible share their expereince of new hardware
and if they manage to do dual booting on them.

Good that the CD/DVD does work but what about USB booting?
Have you tested such?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

kirk
Posts: 1553
Joined: Fri 11 Nov 2005, 19:04
Location: florida

#11 Post by kirk »

JustGreg,

I just got my daughter a Dell 13z that has UEFI/Secure boot/Windows 8. I did manage in install Fatdog64 on it using ReFind as the boot manager and compiling the kernel as a UEFI application. James got shim with mokmanager and grub2 working so I was able to boot with secure boot enabled as well. The next version of Fatdog64 (Don't know when) will support UEFI booting and Secure boot. Mokmanager is not user friendly at all, hopefully we can get something better. Maybe the Linux Foundation will get their loader signed and released. Right now we are very hesitant about supporting installs to a hard drive with Windows 8. Windows 8 has a new feature called "Fast Boot", which is really just hibernation. As you know the ESP (EFI System Partition) is Fat32. When Windows 8 hibernates it apparently doesn't flush its buffers and leaves the ESP mounted. So if you then boot another OS (which will also use the ESP) and then reboot the hibernated Windows 8, Windows will corrupt the ESP's filesystem. So to dual boot Windows 8 you must disable hibernation (aka Fast boot). If you decide to play with dual booting make sure you make a backup of everything on your ESP.

JustGreg
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue 24 May 2005, 10:55
Location: Connecticut USA

#12 Post by JustGreg »

kirk,

Thank you for the information! I will wait for fatdog64. It sounds like you are working the solution. One problem that I have noticed with these HP computer is HP has limited the UEFI to only Microsoft keys. I have been checking HP Support Forum. People are complaining but, the issue is being avoided. For example, I previously able to get information on the recovery partition (contains copies of the EFI partition files) using the command line. However after this last series of Windows 8 and HP supplied updates has eliminated all access to the recovery partition. Other sections of the c:\ hard drive have been hidden to prevent user interaction. The UEFI BIOS only runs HP Diagonstics and Microsoft Bootmanager. There is no shell functionality. When I could find the efi files, I did see bootmanager-noshell.efi. But, now I can see nothing under Windows 8 now.

Yes, I did find out about the "fast boot", which is not much faster than the slow boot. To make Windows 8 shut down completely, one has to hold down the "Shift" key while clicking on the shutdown entry of the power control "charm" icon. HP support people have you do that first when troubleshooting a problem.

I am trying to find out how to install properly the Intel EFI shell on this computer. The HP support people are overloaded with Windows 8 problems and not much help. If I have any luck, I will post the information here. It appears one needs a signature file (PSK) to do the registration with BCDedit.

Nooby, yes, the Compaq CQ58 is a nice computer with a dual core AMD C60 processor and 2 Gigabytes of memory. However, the experience of using it with Windows 8 has been a nightmare. I have downloaded over 1 Gigabyte to 1.5 Gigabytes of software updates. My joke with Windows 8 is Microsoft forgot to put the 9 before the 8, i.e. Windows 98. I had to disable the sound driver to install Windows 8 updates (large ones over 500 Megabytes). A HP supplied BIOS update has failed three times. The third time I had to re-install Windows 8, add all my software and appropriate updates. Only to have the third try with the update fail! I twisted the arm of the support personnel to finally tell me that the update was only for the wireless button (F12) to interface to Windows 8. We, collectively, gave up on that update. I think the problem with the BIOS update was the update package did contain the correct signature file, so it was rejected.

My advice to everyone is not to buy Windows 8 for at least several more months (may be March/April). Microsoft has decided to make Windows secure by only allowing Microsoft products. Windows 8 is not happy when one tries to install Mozilla FireFox browser.

Hopefully, FATDOG Puppy will make mine usable.
Enjoy life, Just Greg
Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#13 Post by nooby »

Thanks Greg for warning me about that cheap computer
being that troublesome.

Kirk, much appreciated you care about getting Fatdog64
to boot on such new machines.

would that allow that if one first manage to get Fatdog64 going
then one can do frugal install of any kind of puppy later too
and also to dual boot them as long as one keep the Fatdog64?

Fatdog64 providing the means to get into the boot process
outside of the Ms Win8 thing?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

User avatar
Flash
Official Dog Handler
Posts: 13071
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 16:04
Location: Arizona USA

#14 Post by Flash »

Well, isn't this Secure Boot crapola a good reason to run Puppy from a multisession DVD then? Or will a UEFI BIOS not allow that either?

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#15 Post by nooby »

Ms win say it is up to the maker of the hardware to decide
Ms say they only give advices and the maker has to decide.

I guess some makers will do what they need to get a good profit?

So what if they follow some advice to not allow even such boot up?
but some kind of rescue CD has to be allowed but maybe them have
the secret keys them pay for then? Just guessing.

We will know when somebody tell us it failed?
Unless we can persuade some reseller to actually test it
on many new machines?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

JustGreg
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue 24 May 2005, 10:55
Location: Connecticut USA

#16 Post by JustGreg »

Microsoft does say it is up to the hardware manufacturer to make the decision, which sticks the hardware manufacturer with the legal problem of anti trust legal action for anti-competitive policies. This could get real interesting in the future.

Oh yes, you can build a rescue disk with Windows 8 Pro. If you have regular Windows 8 then cost is 70 US dollars. However, if you are upgrading from an older version of Windows, the cost is 40 US dollars. A very interesting marketing approach, we gotcha, so pay.

Nooby, I missed your question on USB flash drive boots. I have not tested it, but, it should be possible. One would have to set legacy mode in the BIOS and then ensure the USB drive was before the hard disk in the boot sequence.

Flash, it appears that one would have to do a "legacy boot" for the CD. If the boot loader on the CD is not registered in the database, then it is look upon as malware and should not be run. Ah, all in the interest of security.
Enjoy life, Just Greg
Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much

kirk
Posts: 1553
Joined: Fri 11 Nov 2005, 19:04
Location: florida

#17 Post by kirk »

In the UEFI setup you can disable secure boot and Windows 8 will boot just fine. The secure boot problem is overcome by shim/mokmanager which lets you add your own trusted keys to UEFI. But mokmanager isn't user friendly at all. The one that the Linux Foundation is working on sounds a lot easier to use, but they were having some problem getting it signed by Microsoft. I'm sure they'll get it pretty soon.
The Real problems are the ESP with Windows hibernated problem if using a hard drive install. And trying to change your boot order or boot device in order to boot from flash or optical. The UEFI setups are not at all uniform. I can't test optical booting, this new laptop doesn't have an optical drive. On this new laptop I can disable secure boot and then enable legacy mode. Then I can choose which device to boot from easily. I can do it in normal UEFI mode, (and I have done it) but it's not user friendly at all. If you kind of know what you're doing it's not too bad.

JustGreg
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue 24 May 2005, 10:55
Location: Connecticut USA

#18 Post by JustGreg »

Kirk, yes you are right on the legacy boot and Windows 8 starting.

Before the most recent updates to this Compaq,one enabled legacy boot (which disabled uefi secure boot), entered a four digit code to complete the operation and legacy boot started in the order of bios boot device listing.

I decided to try FatDog 6.1.1 on the Compaq in legacy to see how it would work. One of the more recent updates, changed the UEFI programs. I enabled legacy boot with the internal CDROM first device and entered the four digit code. Nothing happen for a while and then Windows 8 started up. Restarted and back to BIOS setup to check to see legacy boot was enabled. Yes it was. Next restart, I found I needed to use the boot device option and selected CDROM to get FatDog. FatDog CDROM booted up fine and worked nicely. I used it to copy the EFI partition data.

I also tried after a restart to use boot device to boot the hard drive and it failed. One just has to wait for Windows 8 to start up with the legacy boot option. I have UEFI secure boot enabled now for Windows 8.

I also found out from HP support the particular model I have is a "business computer" and not a general consumer model. It has different BIOS features. The funny thing is I brought it at Walmart, a mass consumer distributor. The support gentleman was surprised and thanked me for telling him about where I purchased the computer.

I will be replacing the hard drive in the future. The new solid state drive has four partitions, first is a Fat32 for the needed efi boot partition and three regular EXT2 Linux partitions. I will be trying out FatDog64 on the new drive with a full standard partition installation. The prices for 64 Gigabyte solid state drives have dropped.
Enjoy life, Just Greg
Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#19 Post by nooby »

I find it likely that they have one policy for professional users
and another for the average user.

they trust that the professional user wants to be able to test
otehr OS and then allow that to be possible through change
how it boots up

while they don't want the average user to have that privilege?

So depending on the model you have almost no way to know
if the retailer did happen to buy the professional unless they write
that explicitly as a known version them bought to be that flexible???

to average user it would be like lottery to buy if the seller are not
well informed to know if they got the right version by delivery?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

User avatar
russoodle
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri 12 Sep 2008, 17:36
Location: Down-Under in South Oz

rEFIt...

#20 Post by russoodle »

I've just quickly read this thread with interest, as i have a circa 2007-8 Intel Mac that i wanted to partition and be able to run Puppy on. OSX doesn't permit resizing partitions, one must format, choose partitions and reinstall.

I came across rEFIt and successfully installed it, so i now have a graphical interface from which to choose what i wish to boot on that machine - OSX, Linux or CDROM..

From this page, http://refit.sourceforge.net/:
rEFIt is a boot menu and maintenance toolkit for EFI-based machines like the Intel Macs. You can use it to boot multiple operating systems easily, including triple-boot setups with Boot Camp. It also provides an easy way to enter and explore the EFI pre-boot environment.
The reason i'm posting is that i see Window$ mentioned on the above site as well, however i can't say whether or not this utility would work with UEFI, Win8 and its contemptible idiosyncrasies....i hope it does provide some options.
[i][color=Green][size=92]The mud-elephant, wading thru the sea, leaves no tracks..[/size][/color][/i]

Post Reply