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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Microsoft, Puppy and the UDF Format
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4379
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Sep 2012, 14:10    Post subject: UDF can happen, but ...  

Smithy wrote:
So would it be easy enough to put the UDF code in Zigberts PBurn, either automatically mounting when a UDF disk is inserted or possibly a Load UDF Button? Would be a neat little feature.

Maybe a little premature until a few more UDFs are reported in..

As regards writing to UDF, I'm not sure if any Puppyists want to go through the potential of cd/dvd disks occassionally losing their data, but I would bet UDF writing would be pretty solid in Linux, 'cos it seems really good at those sort of things.

And it usually only happens(ed) when you forget to dismount the thing and it used to freak out. Think write behind caching could catch one out sometimes.
ALL PUPs use "delayed write" for all I/Os (as far as I know) But, at shutdown, the system is suppose to "sync" all I/O cache before execution..

In mounting a Live CD/DVD for active writing, I am not sure how LInux handles that type media when it is mounted and open in write mode. The ideas posted for data loss seemingly ONLY AFFECTs device media opened in wirte mode. In read mode, I fail to see how a "bug" exist to cause data loss on any media, albeit Live media, so that which has been promoted about UDF seems to not be consistent with system operations.

In write mode, any media is exposed to something going wrong so, again, I am not sure whether UDF poses any more risk than any other device.

The biggest question is to determine in Puppy where the founders-developers believe the best place to provide what we get in Apple and Microsoft in the way of UDF.

Further, as mentioned, Puppy does have some PETs which might provide, at least, as a stop-gap, the means to mount and read UDF media. But, again, it depends on whether the developer find time and provides effort for making read ability available for the community to test.

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Last edited by gcmartin on Wed 05 Sep 2012, 18:06; edited 1 time in total
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Smithy


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Sep 2012, 17:52    Post subject:  

Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking straight when I wrote that, the best place to mount would obviously be just to click on the DVD/CD icon on the desktop.

Is there a PET knocking around somewhere? That would be great.
Otherwise I will just keep that code handy to put in the console when needed.

Never had a bad burn from PBurn or Barry K burn to disc.
It even tells you where the disk came from and what properties it has.
I think it helps that everything is totally in ram, love that about puppy.

I think the writing problems in windows, were because there is so much stuff kicking off, like:
"there is a new version of blah blah available, sorry to wreck your disk, and putting clicks on your audio whilst you were recording the other day, try reverting back to previous version or reformat. have a nice day! Love from Adobe, Microsoft etc".

I am slowly changing to writing to multisession disk these days, as everybody thinks that is more reliable.

But like you said previously, if someone comes round with a UDF it would be good now that we know how to mount it!
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Flash
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Sep 2012, 20:00    Post subject:  

Smithy wrote:
... I am slowly changing to writing to multisession disk these days, as everybody thinks that is more reliable...

Please explain. More reliable than what? UDF is a filesystem. As far as I know it is not considered to be more reliable than any other filesystem that might be used when recording onto a DVD. Do you mean you're running Puppy from a multisession DVD, or that you're just saving things on a multisession DVD? Confused
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Smithy


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep 2012, 02:30    Post subject:  

I mean that I will be writing to a multisession disk and appending data as and when, rather than writing to a UDF disk, which treats a disk as if it was a big floppy or hard drive.

I used to put a UDF disk in, wait for it to mount, then copied something
from the hard drive, then pasted to the UDF disk.

Dismounted the DVD, then another day or week, put the disk in and copied something else and pasted it to the disk.
I think UDF supported up to 8 nested layers so you can create folders within folders on the disk.

So, different principles between multisession disk and udf format disk.
One (udf) acts like a big floppy or hard drive, and the other (multisession) links previous data with fresh data so you can see your old sessions.
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Sep 2012, 15:25    Post subject: We do need UDF .... really shouldn't have to ask for this.  

I still believe that PUPs should have the built-in ability to, at its very least, read a UDF DVD/CD that is placed in its reader.

I think the only reason it is currently missing is that it is a development oversight in the base of PUPs.

Hopefully, those that develop will have the right focus to understand how this can be added to the base for system builds.

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BarryK
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PostPosted: Mon 28 Jan 2013, 10:29    Post subject:  

See my blog post:

http://bkhome.org/blog2/?viewDetailed=00096

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Smithy


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PostPosted: Fri 01 Feb 2013, 16:01    Post subject:  

Quote by the Puppy Master:

"One thing that I haven't looked into is how udf can be used with multi-session pup -- maybe someone has ideas about that?"

Not sure that this is correct, but from my experience, why would one need multisession to be used with udf format?

If a dvd or cd is formatted as UDF, then the whole of the disk (apart from the filesystem) is available as copy and paste pasture, i.e to drag and drop files from your hard drive to the dvd/dvdr/blueray/cdr/cdrw disc.

Multisession would be dragging up the old data and writing a bridge, between old and new data so they can be read and written to?

Might have got the wrong end of the stick here, what is multisession pup?
Is it problems with file formats coexisting in Puppy?
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tallboy


Joined: 21 Sep 2010
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Location: Oslo, Norway

PostPosted: Fri 01 Feb 2013, 21:43    Post subject:  

If Ted Dog reads this, it would be interesting to see all the UDF boot code pasted into Barry's blog, I think line wrapping was off in the attached example.

EDIT: Sorry Ted Dog, I thought it was just a screenshot, not an active window.

Stupid question: If a live puppy is burnt to the first 'partition' on a multisession DVD-RW, can the rest of the disc be converted to UDF format, or must the whole disc be the same format to be recognized?

tallboy

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Last edited by tallboy on Sat 02 Feb 2013, 03:24; edited 2 times in total
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7840
Location: qld

PostPosted: Sat 02 Feb 2013, 01:06    Post subject:  

What about UDF on a usb key?

Anyone game to try it? Even on a USB hdd, or SD card, CF card.. whatever..

HowTo <-- http://acousticnotes.wordpress.com/2011/05/04/format-usb-flash-stick-in-udf-under-linux-detailed-guide/

Discussion <-- http://superuser.com/questions/39942/using-udf-on-a-usb-flash-drive

Under MS <-- http://www.ehow.com/how_5863457_format-usb-udf.html

Manpage <-- http://linux.die.net/man/8/mkudffs

UDFtools source <-- http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/6.3/multimedia/udftools.html (doesn't fully compile, even with ubuntu patch, but you do get mkudffs and udffsck).

Patch <-- https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/udftools/1.0.0b3-14.2/+files/udftools_1.0.0b3-14.2.diff.gz

Binaries for slacko (need to put in executable path, unstripped) <-- ATTACHED


NO WARRANTY!!!!! USE WITH CARE.
udftools-1.0.3-binaries-i686.tar.bz2
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bz2

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Filename  udftools-1.0.3-binaries-i686.tar.bz2 
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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Sat 02 Feb 2013, 07:17    Post subject:  

Smithy wrote:
... what is multisession pup?
Is it problems with file formats coexisting in Puppy?
Your questions in reverse:

There are several methods of using a CD/DVD in writers. One of them is the method that PUPs have always used. And the other, UDF, is a procedure for writing where the OS can "freely" add to the disc as long as there's room.

In PUPs, the tools that are used will take an ISO and when creating a CD/DVD will allow the user to specify whether he wants to disc to be finalized where after creation NOTHING can be added to it, OR if the user wants the disc to be in a "open state" where the system can open a subsequent area write to in when needed in the future (this is known as multi-session).

There is a very good site written by a Microsoft MCE, whose name escapes me now, which covers in an easy to read fashion disc layouts and methods of putting information onto CD/DVDs for subsequent system use.

I'll have to find my notes on the site.

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Flash
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Feb 2013, 09:18    Post subject:  

It's my understanding that multisession is somewhat separate from the filesystem used for the data on the disk. When the drive begins to read a disk, the drive itself comes into the picture, between the disk and the operating system. Whether the disk was burned as a multisession was added when the drive finished burning the previous session. The drive looks for that information on its own when it begins to read the disk. I think this is baked into the design of the drive, and into the CD and DVD specification. Possibly it is entirely in the drive's firmware. If I haven't muddled that explanation too badly, it should be obvious that a drive won't even try to add a new session to a disk that was closed, or finalized or whatever the proper term is. The drive sees that the disk is closed, so its firmware won't let it add more. I could be wrong.
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Smithy


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Feb 2013, 15:23    Post subject:  

Thanks for the explanations guys, most of it I understand, I've been finalising discs for a long time in the udf format .

(not always successfully though in windows, but as I said a while back, I think Linux is more suited for that kind of thing as an operating system, because it doesn't do frills and glamour, it does accuracy, just my observations in using pburn and burn to disk within puppy).

01 micko, I would be game to do udf on a stick or card, but the ones I have are currently in use with puppy on a stick (writing from it now) and a puppy sd card for my lappy. Both are spot on after much tweaking and I would be reticent to lose the mastered setup.

I think I get what you are thinking of though.
If it was formated in UDF then the rest of the stick would be available to puppy instead of data having to reside within a save file?
So you could just throw files wherever you wanted on the stick...
Could be wrong about this tho', very wrong Wink

Last edited by Smithy on Sun 03 Feb 2013, 06:58; edited 1 time in total
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8-bit


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PostPosted: Sat 02 Feb 2013, 17:59    Post subject:  

I remember using a UDF format DVD+ media and I had the option besides adding data to it to also deleting files.
If I remember correctly, the old TOC is somehow overwritten or a new TOC that has all changes is written and it is used.
Naturally, the addition of a new TOC each time takes up rel-estate on the media along with additions.
Also, files that are deleted are still on the media and only the listing of them is removed in a new TOC.
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Flash
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PostPosted: Sat 02 Feb 2013, 21:02    Post subject:  

8-bit wrote:
... files that are deleted are still on the media and only the listing of them is removed in a new TOC.

In my opinion this is why multisession Puppy as she is currently spoken could be superior to UDF Puppy, at least on write-only optical disks. The deletion of a file from multisession Puppy is done from within Puppy and the result is shown by Puppy's amazing combinatorial filesystem. The session which contains deleted information is still on the disk and is easily accessible from within Puppy by simply mounting the disk. I haven't had a chance to try it out, but I suspect that even though the original information is still on the disk, accessing it after it has been deleted from a DVD-R with a UDF filesystem may be much more difficult than it is in today's Puppy.
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gcmartin

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PostPosted: Mon 04 Feb 2013, 12:44    Post subject:  

What @8-bit shares is accurate.

And what @Flash shares, also is accurate.

But, there is a major difference in both understanding and operation of these 2 very different approaches to disc data usage and management.. Multi-session disc technology can be used whether the disc was created using either, per se. In Puppy's case, it uses the Multi-session approach to allow "stacking" of its save-sessions primarily used at Shutdown and again employed at boot. Further, by using save-session, it allows a mechanism to be selective about which of the save-sessions to deploy at system boot.

In UDF, its key significance is how it manages the data on the CD/DVD so that it has familiar operation with what users have come to think of in their use of HDD/USB/SMB/DFS storage. That is the ability to freely read and write with the disc maintaining the integrity of data management is a similar fashion.

And, as far as UDF goes on CD/DVD technology, there is tremendous benefit to management at the TOC level.

This is and what I share never was an appeal for changing anything to do with Puppy's save-session. It, solely, approached the ability to create a disc that can be used to freely read and write on one system and employed similarly on a Puppy Linux system.

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