Booting Linux CD *bricks* Samsung UEFI laptops

For discussions about security.
Message
Author
User avatar
Sky Aisling
Posts: 1368
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 23:02
Location: Port Townsend, WA. USA

Booting Linux CD *bricks* Samsung UEFI laptops

#1 Post by Sky Aisling »

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this.
Please advise if there is a more appropriate posting place.
Thank you.

Booting Linux instead of Windows 8 *bricks* some Samsung laptops

http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... g-laptops/

Bligh
Posts: 480
Joined: Sun 08 Jan 2006, 11:05
Location: California

#2 Post by Bligh »

There is a blurb on tuxmachines today.
h-online.com: On Thursday morning, Linus Torvalds merged two changes into the main Linux development tree which mean that the samsung-laptop kernel driver will no longer be activated when Linux is booted via UEFI (1, 2). This should resolve the problem of some Samsung laptops being irreparably damaged when Linux is booted using UEFI.
Cheers

User avatar
Sky Aisling
Posts: 1368
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 23:02
Location: Port Townsend, WA. USA

Booting Linux instead of Win 8 *bricks* some Samsung laptops

#3 Post by Sky Aisling »

Thanks, Bligh

I saw that also.
On Thursday morning, Linus Torvalds merged two changes into the main Linux development tree which mean that the samsung-laptop kernel driver will no longer be activated when Linux is booted via UEFI (1, 2). This should resolve the problem of some Samsung laptops being irreparably damaged when Linux is booted using UEFI.

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#4 Post by nooby »

Good that Linus T. acted upon it but too late for those
unfortunate to not suspect such could happen.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#5 Post by nooby »

Is it only on Samsung?

I thought of buying this Acer they build under their
Packard Bell trade name. A kind of Sister Company. ?

http://www.elgiganten.se/product/datore ... 2/MoreInfo

Text in Swedish the google search for it give priority to
Sweden so fail to find what it is named in AngloAmerican countries.

It have Win 8 and Intel Celeron 1000M CPU 4GB of DRAM
and are 64bit architecture and it has 500GB HD
but maybe that one is not NTFS due to the Win 8
using other format now?

Most likely it has the famous UEFI boot thing?

It does not cost much some 3000SEK
which is very cheap for that much computer?

Now can one install puppy frugally on it?
Would it allow me to boot with a dual boot
Grup4DOS maybe ?

Would it get bricked if one try?

Should I start a thread in Beginners?
I have to buy it within say 24 hours so
hope somebody can give advice or else
it get sold out fast.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

User avatar
8-bit
Posts: 3406
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2007, 03:37
Location: Oregon

#6 Post by 8-bit »

If the laptop/desktop has a CD/DVD-rw drive, it seems like one could boot a multisession version of Puppy and save back to the CD/DVD without bricking the PC.
Am I wrong in that thinking?
Or will UEFI allow the media to boot at all?

I have a Toshiba laptop running Windows 7 64bit and I am able to boot a Puppy DVD and use it with no problems.
But I do not know if it uses UEFI.
How would one check the laptop to see if it does?

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#7 Post by nooby »

I am too lazy to find out.
But I made a phone call
to the biggest chain that sell
computers among other things

elgiganten.se and they are selling
a Packard Bell Easy Note TE
that is 64Bit and Intel 1000M CPU
with 4gb RAM and ms win8
and the typical answer from them
was that one lose the warranty if one
change anything on the computer.

they had not even heard of UEFI
so not very encouraging.

I will wait and only buy when the
android computers without fan comes along.

Maybe an ASUS Nexus 7 if that one
could be run as a kind of "desktop in disguise
to connect keyboard and mouse and external
big Screen and so on. nexus 7 seems to allow
that one root it and install linux? I know too little
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

User avatar
Flash
Official Dog Handler
Posts: 13071
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 16:04
Location: Arizona USA

#8 Post by Flash »

According to this article, just booting Linux from a live CD will brick late model Samsung laptops with UEFI BIOS. This would include multisession Puppies.

Supposedly, Samsung is already working on a fix. No word on whether they will fix bricked laptops for free.

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#9 Post by nooby »

This text is too old but is about Linux and Samsung.

How to survive a UEFI BOOT-OF-DEATH on Samsung laptops
Matthew Garrett reveals the software surgery needed
By Gavin Clarke, 22nd March 2013
So we need to find a more recent text on the progress
that Samsung has made?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/03/22 ... mory_full/

Some owner or he tries to help a relative with Samsung laptop
made a thread about it very recently.
Here it is http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=90707
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

User avatar
greengeek
Posts: 5789
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2010, 09:34
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

#10 Post by greengeek »

One of the comments I saw on a forum suggested that if Samsung is able to write UEFI code that allows easy bricking of it's product then there will probably be future viruses that do the same thing with other manufacturers UEFI versions too.

No UEFI for me.

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#11 Post by nooby »

greengeek wrote:One of the comments I saw on a forum suggested that if Samsung is able to write UEFI code that allows easy bricking of it's product then there will probably be future viruses that do the same thing with other manufacturers UEFI versions too.

No UEFI for me.
Sure one can bye used equipments from those
that upgrade to latest them wanting to be like friends :)

But AFAIK new computers will only be Win8.1 and further
or be Apple comuters and they have EFI so easy for them
to add the UEFI already knowin EFI.

So whom are going to make the Desktops, Laptops, Pads
that you want to buy?

Just me curious no criticism we think rather alike on
the problems with UEFI I have decided to not buy UEFI
machines until they have made some agreement to allow
easy ways to put Linux frugal on them and that is not
something they want.

And if they do it then each Distro will have it's own
unique Certification that cost enormous amount of cash
so only Ubuntu and Suse Linux and Debian? will pay?

Puppy using root will be frowned upon and maybe illegal
in the future. I am very pessimistic but reality almost always
are much worse than my pessimistic predictions.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

User avatar
Ted Dog
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed 14 Sep 2005, 02:35
Location: Heart of Texas

#12 Post by Ted Dog »

No EFI is not the anti Linux boot loader. It is widely used on commercial server hardware. And unlike the personal computer or consumer market, linux has considerable pull on hardware manufactors who make money on the high end models.
That is how RedHat got the master level key rights for hardware used with windows 8 ( BUT NOT ARM based ) Now RedHat could have been evil and hoarded the master key which is what Microsoft may have be lead to believe. However, did not work out that way.... :P
It will not be a heartache as discussed here. However companies without a share of the server market will most likely have buggier UEFI till it has been worked out. I do not recall Samsung having a server class models so they should have more issues then say a Dell which does have a better reputation on tbe high end.

User avatar
greengeek
Posts: 5789
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2010, 09:34
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

#13 Post by greengeek »

Ted Dog wrote:No EFI is not the anti Linux boot loader. It is widely used on commercial server hardware. ...
It will not be a heartache as discussed here. However companies without a share of the server market will most likely have buggier UEFI till it has been worked out. .
I believe it does spell heartache for those of us who have enjoyed up till now the ability to build or modify our own operating system of choice. UEFI draws the line between the Big Boys in the corporate world and the small guys who are into DIY.

What are the chances of each Puppian going cap-in-hand to the larger distro manufacturers and getting permission to have a key? This is a sad time indeed for individual tinkerers.

Just for the record I will post here the communication I have had with Dick Smith Electronics (major New Zealand and Australian electronics and computer supplier) earlier this year:

my original complaint:
Hi, this complaint concerns all Dick Smith stores. You are currently in breach of the Fair Trading Act by selling PCs with crippled BIOS (UEFI) without informing either your staff or customers about the restrictive and dangerous practice of including UEFI. When I ask DSE staff what UEFI is they do not have any idea. When I look at the products you are selling none of them carry any warning that they are not true PCs - that they are "locked down" and could be destroyed by trialling a different operating system. Customers have been aware for years that Mac computers only support their own operating system (ie it is common knowledge). By contrast, it is also common knowledge that a PC traditionally allows the user to have much greater flexibility and choice, which is why they have become so popular. Unfortunately DSE have not made it public that the new range of PCs which contain UEFI bios have lost a significant part of those traditional PC functions. DSE is currently selling PCs with crippled functionality, and is failing in it's duty to fully inform the customer and highlight the faulty products. Please correct this immediately so that customers do not get caught out when they try to restore or replace the operating system. DSE has an obligation to inform all customers, prior to purchase, of this loss of functionality.
DSE reply:
Good afternoon

Thank you for your feedback

The UEFI is an update to the computers traditional BIOS that had not
changed for many years and needed to be updated.

Dick Smith sells the computers products as supplied by the
manufacturers and do not modify them ourselves.

We do provide the the basic system requirement at the time of sale and
also most manufacturers do provide specifications on their website

Nigel F
Customer Liaison Specialist
my response:
Hi Nigel,

the change to a UEFI bios is not due to any need to create an "updated
BIOS". It is for one reason only - so that the choice of operating
systems can be locked down by providers, and taken out of the hands of
customers.

DSE needs to inform customers BEFORE they purchase a UEFI based computer that the choice of operating system is now restricted. It is important that you make customers aware that the new bios format will reduce the resale value of the PC, restrict the future choice of operating system, and may also prevent the use of normal maintenance tools such as Hirens and other bootable antivirus checkers/restore utilities.

It is also likely to prevent schools from freely using such PCs as
educational tools for Linux and other operating systems etc.

DSE is not acting in the best interests of customers by failing to
highlight this major departure from previous designs. Your current
marketing campaign of "consult the Techsperts" encourages the public to
have confidence in the technical ability of your staff and my experience
is that the DSE staff are largely ignorant of the effects of UEFI on the
customer. This issue is likely to create a significant impact on all PC
retailers in coming months as it comes to the attention of consumer
watchdogs and I would advise you to bring this to the attention of your
management so that they can take steps to correctly train staff and
adequately inform customers in order to avoid negative outcomes.

Customers will not be happy to find that they have been duped and ill
informed.
and today:
Dear DSE,
I still note that DSE is not informing it's customers of the significant restrictions that UEFI imposes on the PC products DSE is currently selling. This needs to be addressed urgently.

For example - if a parent buys their student child a Christmas laptop for use in their 2014 Information Technology studies it will be highly likely that the student will need to install other operating systems onto that hardware. If DSE has not advertised that the UEFI renders this hardware partially crippled such a gift would be frustrating and valueless.

The fact that the Win8 ready hardware 'locks in' the purchaser MUST be highlighted to ALL prospective customers so that they can make an informed choice.
I doubt it will change anything but at least DSE can't say they weren't warned...
.

User avatar
Ted Dog
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed 14 Sep 2005, 02:35
Location: Heart of Texas

#14 Post by Ted Dog »

yep if customers using linux did not already challenge this I'll be worse off now. But you are right about slowing down the tinkerer. FatDog64 got a signing key but I do not even know anyone at RedHat.
There is a back door method of a signed shimmed kernel with KEXEC patch which can be used to launch a unsigned kernel.. That happened very early and may be why RedHat is being some what sharing and good will toward other distros.
BUT major discussion at that transfer point between signed and unsigned kernel is underway. Lots of talk FUD style that can be used for rouge kernels. HOWEVER signed kernels are new. And have never been a issue for linux. so I expect the big hardware and software houses that already have deep roots with NSA are making this a bigger issue than reality.
Likewise, the push back from any one nations security demains press against worldwide efforts like linux are bound to backfire and risk exposure.

gcmartin

#15 Post by gcmartin »

UEFI, couple of mentions: Those ONLY exits on 64bit systems manufactured over past year,or so.

In Puppyland, there are 2 official 64bit OSes mentioned in BarryK's notes. The FATDOG team beginning version 620 has done an excellent job of DOCUMENTING how to successful use FATDOG on a UEFI system. In fact, if you successfully setup and boot FATDOG620, it will do all of the work for both 64bit distros: Thus, allowing you to boot using Lighthouse64 version 602 on the same PC.

Another explanation which covers the steps, too, is these for OpenSUSE. The idea is that the process is the same, no matter.

Hope this helps

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#16 Post by nooby »

Kirk and JamesBond have to correct me
but as I vaguely remember first they
some "key" that they used

But had to later abandon that one
and kind of start all over due to something
me don't remember and they have still
not found a solid solution to what they discovered?

But I do have a poor memory so maybe they did solve it
and me either have read and forgot or they are still
working on to find that solution.

gcmartin can you help me find the link to
a text from them that say they have found
the solution now? I fail to imagine what search
word to use.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

User avatar
Ted Dog
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed 14 Sep 2005, 02:35
Location: Heart of Texas

#17 Post by Ted Dog »

how they got it to work is pure gold. Using Hybrid mode of isolinux with the multiboot methods included in ISO filesystem format They have embedded both mbr style drive layout and a GPT overlay that makes a second of reference to a file on the optical drive. That file is actually a false disk of a EFI bootable image as a file. This allows the system to boot EFI Grub2 style menu.lst that finds the FatDog Kernel and Initrd back in the original old school layer and boots them.
We need to expand the trick so the extra space on I USB flashdrive can also be seen from within Win8. Now Win8 can only see the tiny 10M EFI drive image. Not the rest of the flashdrive even if its formated as NTFS. 8)
Second thing is a frugal type of setup, is doable and I did it on accident. But not exactly sure how to reproduce. I think I removed the FatDog boot flash before Grub dropped into kernel load and when I did not locate FatDogs Kernel on the flash it hunted it down on the harddrive and loaded it from there. It was superfast load.

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#18 Post by nooby »

cool, wish I knew more or me less dim or kind of lost.

I have loved computers since 1955 something
them reported on in our Public Service Radio.

And I tried to get hold on them as soon as
that got affordable. But despite me buying
all the books about programming I failed
to be as logical and structured as is needed.

Back on topic. Now coming Wednesday
I have a new chance to buy a UEFI computer.

I hesitate. I don't trust me can follow the instructions
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

User avatar
Ted Dog
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed 14 Sep 2005, 02:35
Location: Heart of Texas

#19 Post by Ted Dog »

windows can't be borked if it is not in the computer. I asked if the el cheapo model had a easy to add memory and REMOVE harddrive before I bought it. It did only one screw and EVERYTHING IS BEHIND that one cover that is 80 percent of the back. The cover was on a slide rails like a Out house drawer and had a hook with the battery remove button so It stays in place with out the screw. Now swappingHD is even easier than my desktop server. :D Looks like it has a spot for a inside flashdrive as well sdhc type.

User avatar
Ted Dog
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed 14 Sep 2005, 02:35
Location: Heart of Texas

#20 Post by Ted Dog »

step one no Samsung.
step two remove windows HD
step three download fatdog64v621

step 4 with flash drive

dd if=fatdog64.iso of=/dev/sda sdb sdc etc whatever matches flashdrive

move to USB Port and turn on new EFI

let Fatdog find itself and a few screen changes later... desktop.

Post Reply