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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Legacy OS 2 & 4 are you a User? Who am I developing for?
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toomanyquestions

Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sat 02 Feb 2013, 16:33    Post subject:  Suggestions  

I'm not a regular user, but I've taken Legacy for a few short test drives...Here are my ideas (re: mini 4) -

> Change the desktop. I love to customize the panel with a few clicks, and I'm addicted to desktop right-click menus. Perhaps Openbox w/lxpanel & Karamba/sidebar?

>Replace rox as default filemanager

> And, to echo someone else, become more a little more modular (sfs/pets etc). Each user has a different list of "indispensable" programs (for me it's libre office)

Just a few thoughts – keep up the good work - but not at the expense of your family...

Last edited by toomanyquestions on Sun 17 Feb 2013, 02:03; edited 8 times in total
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infromthepound

Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Sun 03 Feb 2013, 07:25    Post subject:  

I use it ocasionaly. It's very useful on some of the old equipment I get given, which often end up either as spare parts or having as major RAM upgrade.
JB
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Pete22


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 239
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Thu 07 Feb 2013, 23:37    Post subject: Who are you developing for.  

I just happened upon your post by accident.

Who are you developing for? Well, you used to develop for the non-geek
user who wanted to use linux instead of windows on an older computer.
I used and loved teenpup 2009. The one with the orange flowers on the
desktop. I used it as my main operating system for 3 years. It was by far
the easiest puppy I have used. Thank you very much for those good
years.

legacy os 2 was pretty good but small, Hated the desktop photos though.
My hardware really needed legacy 4. So I was very excited about legacy 4
coming out. However, when it arrived there were several major bugs
causing most of the programs to not work. When I came online to report
it; your messages made it clear that you were not interested in feedback
and not to contact you with problems. I was very dismayed. If it had been
little bugs, where I could still use the system I could have understood
your point of view better,

But it was a crippled system.

Since Legacy OS 4 didn't work on my computer, and I could not fix it, I
took it off my machine. I did not want to wait yet another year for you to
discover what my issues were on your own.

I understand where you are coming from on a support level. Yet, even if
you were unwilling to provide support, you should have been willing to
accept at least one-way feedback on your own products. Some things
would be items you might want to fix in the future. Some folks may have a
idea for an easy way to fix a problem with your programs that you may
have been struggling with. You might have also received some golden
suggestions for new features from some of your users. But you made it
very clear you did not want to hear from your users. So you have missed
out. And it is the reason why you don't know who is using your
programs now.

I don't think you understand how I felt when legacy 4 came out. I was long
time dedicated user who had patiently waited the extra year and a half for
version four to come out. It would not work, even though it was on the
right age of hardware. You left me with no support, and no chance of
correct the problems. I could not even tell you the problems I was seeing.

Without answering individual questions you could have made a FAQ file
with tips to get the system up and running based on similar types of
issues reported in a feedback system. There might have been easy
solution to get me up and running. I will never know.

Who are you developing for now? You are developing programs for yourself.
And when it works for you, you are happy. If it happens to work for
someone else, great.
If there are flaws that make it unusable for others, you want them to use
something else. Ok. Please make that very clear on your webpages.

Personally, even thought your products are excellent, I would not refer a
beginner to them. If they get stuck, they have no where to turn. Its a deal
breaker for me.

I still miss Teenpup 2009.

Keep the feedback lines open. You will do much better that way.


Pete
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5453
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Fri 08 Feb 2013, 00:14    Post subject:  

I did a full install of Legacy OS 4 the day it was released on this old 733 mhz P3......... no real problems worth even mentioning.It's not my main os but I do still use it occasionally.Still have Legacy OS 2 installed on a couple of backup boxes as well.
Since mainstream Puppy development is gradually moving away from older hardware (PAE kernels, XZ compression,etc.) there should continue to be users for Legacy OS .......it just runs better on older hardware. Smile Lack of versions for older hardware is precisely why I released Lucid Retro.

Keep up the good work...... at your own pace.
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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1384
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri 08 Feb 2013, 02:47    Post subject:  

Hello Pete22,
Quote:
When I came online to report it; your messages made it clear that you were not interested in feedback and not to contact you with problems. I was very dismayed. If it had been little bugs, where I could still use the system I could have understood your point of view better, but it was a crippled system.

Did you ever post your problems? any links on the forum to them? One advantage Microsoft has over Linux is the original manufacturers design their products to work with Windows. Every piece of hardware comes with a disc full of Drivers. No even Ubuntu can support everything. Take the Compaq CQ45-805TU Notebook first released October 2012 my father brought one and no Linux Distro be it Mint, Ubuntu, Fedora etc etc will let him connect his WiFi or see his SD Card. He is 76 years old and after playing with Windows 8 for a week said he preferred Ubuntu and installed that only to discover these problems. Any comments I made about lack of support are based on the fact that I like everyone else here is still learning and don't have the answers to every configuration problem. Also a lot of derivative creators have asked those with the knowledge on the forum for help to fix bugs and have got upset and ranted and raved when they didn't get the support they thought they were in titled to. These forum members are putting their free time in developing Puppy not its derivatives. I created my derivative so I'm am responsible for it. I am only one person with a small family and a full time job and will never be able to give users the support Ubuntu, Fedora can.

Quote:
legacy os 2 was pretty good but small, Hated the desktop photos though. My hardware really needed legacy 4. So I was very excited about legacy 4 coming out.


Out of interest why did you need Legacy OS 4?

Quote:
I understand where you are coming from on a support level. Yet, even if you were unwilling to provide support, you should have been willing to accept at least one-way feedback on your own products.


I am happy for users to post their problems but in truth my time and knowledge will prevent a fix being found unless those on the forum with the knowledge want to give their time which most don't as once again their focus is on Puppy itself. An comments I made would have been made as I don't want Users to waste their time waiting for a fix that will never come.

Quote:
I don't think you understand how I felt when legacy 4 came out. I was long time dedicated user who had patiently waited the extra year and a half for version four to come out. It would not work, even though it was on the right age of hardware. You left me with no support, and no chance of correct the problems. I could not even tell you the problems I was seeing.


If I was you I would have been annoyed BIGTIME! Would have said "Bloody Bastard, get stuffed". The reason It takes over a year to release something is I use it and test it and on my hardware it works (8 desktops, 2 Laptops). I feel bad when Legacy OS doesn't work with Users Hardware. But I also know that some users expect Legacy to do something it was never meant to do. I recommend users try Ubuntu 10.04 as it runs on hardware 12.04 won't because it is a longterm support version that runs great on old hardware. Question how old is that PC you say Legacy OS 4 is buggy on and what are these bugs you found?

Quote:
Without answering individual questions you could have made a FAQ file with tips to get the system up and running based on similar types of
issues reported in a feedback system. There might have been easy
solution to get me up and running. I will never know.


It's hard to create a FAQ when you can't predict every problem there'll be that you don't experience with your own test Hardware.

Quote:
Who are you developing for now? You are developing programs for yourself. And when it works for you, you are happy. If it happens to work for someone else, great. If there are flaws that make it unusable for others, you want them to use something else. Ok. Please make that very clear on your webpages.


If I was developing for just myself there would never had been a TEENpup or Legacy OS. This post was about seeing if there were real users using my releases. If not I would just look after my system on my PC. Reality is I am releasing something that works on 8 desktops and 2 laptops of difference makes and models and I know that there is no way I can make Legacy OS work with all of them. May be your right and I should only release Legacy OS after I have tracked down every make and model PC and Laptop a user might have and tested Legacy OS fully again them.

Quote:
Who are you developing for? Well, you used to develop for the non-geek
user who wanted to use linux instead of windows on an older computer.
I used and loved teenpup 2009. The one with the orange flowers on the
desktop. I used it as my main operating system for 3 years. It was by far
the easiest puppy I have used. Thank you very much for those good
years.

I see you joined this forum in 2009 was it because of TEENpup? As your posting here I am assuming that Puppy or one of its derivatives is running on your computer. Why did you use TEENpup for 3 years instead of Puppy...
I'm glad you had 3 years of use out of TEENpup 2009 I'm disappointed Legacy OS 4 didn't live up to expectations.

As you've seen the next post from James C showed a difference experience with Legacy OS 4 over your's. I've experience similar problems with the big boys of Linux be it Ubuntu or Fedora, Mint, Suse, Mandriva and said "How can they release such a load of crap, I can't see why users think these releases are so great". Again I was expecting everything to work with my Hardware which it can't.

Lastly thanks for your comments I appreciate ant feedback I get be it good or bad. As I've said before users can post anything they want to say about Legacy OS as I won't get offended at all. Very Happy

_________________
Legacy OS 2.1 LTS Released! Install me on a new! EXT2 Partition with 500Mb of swap and I'll be happy. Razz
Legacy OS 4 Released! Install to newer legacy hardware / early EeePC's Very Happy
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Pete22


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 239
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Sat 09 Feb 2013, 14:49    Post subject:  Going forward  

I am well aware that support can eat up all your time. I think you are wise
to set boundaries.But none, is not the right amount if you want others to use your products.

You may look into a feedback system or maybe develop one that sorts in
coming issues before you read it. Then you could choose to look at
feedback by topic. Read a few, make an FAQ for any duplicates and put
real issues that you want to deal with in your todo files. The feedback
system could then delete entries that refer to questions already
addressed. However, you might want to add, a place for someone to say
that the suggested solution does not work. Then provide a template of
information that must be filled in for you to readdress the issue. That way
if your solution only helps half the people, you don't ignore the other half,
You could also put issues out for other users to help find answers for.

If you still do not want to provide any support; then just be glad you have
a fine product that works for you. Don't worry about who it does not work for. Just be up front on your webpages.


All of this thinking about Legacy 4, makes me want to try it again. I am
still using the same hardware. If it actually worked on my machine now,
that would be marvelous.


Pete
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Pete22


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 239
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Sat 09 Feb 2013, 14:53    Post subject:  We both were posting at the same time.  

So I will answer your questions soon.

Pete
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toomanyquestions

Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sun 10 Feb 2013, 15:12    Post subject: Let's focus on improving the distro...  

Guys, I'm not convinced this back-and-forth is helpful.

John, how do you see the future of the project? Are noteworthy changes probable? Regardless of the opinions I have expressed so far, I think your project is a good one, but of course not a perfect one Smile.
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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1384
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb 2013, 09:21    Post subject:  

Hello toomanyquestions, A little bit of back and forth never hurt anyone. LOL!
The future of the project as you put it is undecided except for an Update Package I've been slowly working on for Legacy OS 2. With 12 hour days at work, family requirements and other interests there isn't too much time or to be honest drive to finish this Update Package.

If I had the resources and a talented team of Programmers behind me the possibilities would be endless. But as I don't, I don't see much happening in the next few months, Sorry.

_________________
Legacy OS 2.1 LTS Released! Install me on a new! EXT2 Partition with 500Mb of swap and I'll be happy. Razz
Legacy OS 4 Released! Install to newer legacy hardware / early EeePC's Very Happy
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toomanyquestions

Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Mon 11 Feb 2013, 20:53    Post subject: Update  

john biles wrote:
there isn't too much time or to be honest drive to finish this Update Package. But as I don't, I don't see much happening in the next few months, Sorry.


I was actually thinking a little longer term - six mo. to a year, perhaps more. I installed Legacy as my 2ndary OS the other day and it has indeed proved quite usable. I was particularly impressed w/opera's speed on gnome-look.

If I had technical skills I'd offer them.
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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1384
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2013, 09:02    Post subject:  

Hello toomanyquestions,

I have a small repository of extra apps which include Opera 12
You'll get better support for HTLM5 webpages. I use both Opera 10 and 12 when needed.
Here's a trick with Opera 10:
When watching Youtube videos Opera 10 stores them under /tmp so if I want to keep something, before it finishes or I change webpages I drag and copy the flash video to my /root directory. Works on other sites as well.

See here to download
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=68499

_________________
Legacy OS 2.1 LTS Released! Install me on a new! EXT2 Partition with 500Mb of swap and I'll be happy. Razz
Legacy OS 4 Released! Install to newer legacy hardware / early EeePC's Very Happy
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puppy-fan

Joined: 12 Feb 2013
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2013, 16:13    Post subject: System specs and a few questions  

Hello John,

First of all, I would like to thank you for all your time and effort spent developing Legacy OS. I really admire and respect your determination to provide support for obsolete hardware and making it possible to use old PCs that could very well end up in a landfill. It's great to see that someone cares about older equipment and recycling--this gives people another option which is so different than the current mindset/trend trend that new is always better. Very Happy

I've been using Legacy OS 4 mini on a truly ancient machine for the last two weeks now. It sports an ancient socket 370 Celeron @667 Mhz that I've got overclocked to 1 Ghz and has 1 gig of first generation DDR ram on a PIII board. The system is extremely snappy when opening apps and I can actually stream music and use Youtube in a minimized window on this machine! I think that the ancient and low-end Geoforce 200 MX video card with only 32 Mbs is the only thing that's holding this system back. Wink When opening websites that are heavy on images it takes awhile to load and trying to watch Youtube videos in fullscreen is a bit challenging. I'm thinking of trying to upgrade the video card if I can pick up a cheap card at a computer market and see how it handles video then. Very Happy

I'm truly amazed how responsive and usable this system is thanks to your efforts and I'd like to ask you a few questions about updating Opera, Firefox and Flash. I'm pretty new to Linux and a bit afraid of breaking the system but I'd love to install the latest version of Opera, FF and get a new version of Flash which brings to mind a few questions. Can I download the newest versions from the respective sites, or must they be first compiled especially for Legacy? I read about a newer version of Opera 12 in a different thread but would love to use the most recent version from their website if possible.

As far as Flash goes, did you tweak this to work with older hardware? I've tried a lot of lightweight distros such as Watt OS, Peppermint, Anti X and Vector and flash doesn't work properly on any of these distros. It either crashes all the time, or I get the msg that it's not installed. For this reason, I was truly impressed that you had version 11.2 running so smoothly on Legacy--it's a great accomplishment! I've read somewhere that newer versions of Flash are incompatible with old CPUs and this could explain why Flash won't work on Chrome on those other distros that I've tried. I also vaguely remember reading sometime during Christmas that a flash alternative plugin for FF (version 17 or newer) had been developed but haven't been able to track it down. Sad It would be great to get rid of flash altogether if this plugin really works!

John, I'd like to thank you again for all of your hard work! Please take enough time off from the project to spend with your family and on hobbies, but I'd be absolutely delighted to see an updated version of Legacy OS in the future if you choose to develop it further. I will recommend Legacy OS to anyone that is thinking of getting rid of an old machine. Very Happy

Best wishes!
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toomanyquestions

Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2013, 23:54    Post subject: Thanks  

john biles wrote:
You'll get better support for HTLM5 webpages. I use both Opera 10 and 12 when needed.
Here's a trick with Opera 10:
When watching Youtube videos Opera 10 stores them under /tmp so if I want to keep something, before it finishes or I change webpages I drag and copy the flash video to my /root directory. Works on other sites as well.

See here to download
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=68499


Ah, thanks much - I noticed 11.x doesn't show yahoo vids correctly (sound, no visual). Perhaps 12 will fare better. I'll have to look into that trick.
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Arefacti

Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Posts: 165

PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb 2013, 06:30    Post subject: another user  

Hello,
here I am, a new user of Legacy OS 4
I get the net with frisbee : it's usual for me AAAL the puppies did that with my PC.

Now, I look, and find it after a first look very nice. One first surprise, ext4 don't supported.
and..I return to explore it.

So, already a great original job.

N.B. It's a full install after a kernel panic with frugal, thanks to Keef
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=76887&search_id=1932250268&start=45
for the DIY Wink
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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1384
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb 2013, 09:37    Post subject:  

Hello puppy-fan,
The latest version of Opera which will run on Legacy OS 2 is version 12.02 newer versions aren't compatible.
I didn't do anything to Flashplayer. The success your having has got more to do with the Kernel version used as well as a number of system libs more suited to running Flashplayer.

I've uploaded a newer version of Flashplayer to my Repository
Link Here: http://puppylinuxstuff.meownplanet.net/LegacyOS/Legacy-OS-4-Mini-Apps-Respository/

You'll need to enter user = puppy password = linux

To install double click on tar.gz file and it will open. Now extract to /

Before doing anything navigate through to /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins and rename the old version of flash. That way if you have any trouble you can overwrite the just installed version with the original flashplayer version.

_________________
Legacy OS 2.1 LTS Released! Install me on a new! EXT2 Partition with 500Mb of swap and I'll be happy. Razz
Legacy OS 4 Released! Install to newer legacy hardware / early EeePC's Very Happy
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