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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
UEFI Boot and Puppy --- is there a noob HowTo?
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HoerMirAuf


Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Würzburg

PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 03:10    Post_subject:  UEFI Boot and Puppy --- is there a noob HowTo?  

Hi Volks,

i use Puppy now for a long time on all my LapTops and Desktop PCs... and i love it! (the only ... i don't like Rox ... Wink )

Now i bougth a new Acer Aspire Notbook, with Win8 OEM (no install DVD, only Recover Partition and no way to install it as legacy boot) and UEFI Boot.

And here i have some trouble ... how to hell can i install Puppy near Windows on a UEFI machine? I can't disabel secure boot in the bios, because its blocked out

I read a lot about UEFI boot. I was downloading shim i tryed to sign it but i am not experienced enought. The only result was a blocked out HD.
And the bootloader was not displayed in the UEFI bootloader

I tryed out ubunt with UEFI install and this works. After installing ubuntu, one time i even got the message from mokmanager to enroll the key but the x509 key was broken Sad (how make the guys fom ubuntu it displayed by UEFI boot manager? )

How ever .... i don't want Ubunutu, i want a powerful small Linux .. i want Puppy Slacko!

Is anybody here, who knows how to make a Frugal or Full installation on a damn UEFI unit?

(please apologize my broken english)
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2596
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 04:37    Post_subject:  

Take it back to the store and ask them for a refund. Tell them that they did not explain to you that this PC is for restricted use only. Explain that it is not "fit-for-purpose" because it does not allow you to load the operating system of your own choice.

Explain to the store that if you had wanted to buy a restricted computer you could have chosen a Mac. Instead, you chose a PC because PCs are designed to give you choice, and the store failed to explain that this product has a defective bios.

Did this PC come with a written warning that it is only able to run Windows 8? No, I bet it did not. False advertising!

This PC is nothing more than an electronic advertising billboard for Microsoft. Did you want to pay your hard earned money for that? I don't think so.
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tempestuous

Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 5271
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 04:46    Post_subject:  

HoerMirAuf wrote:
i want Puppy Slacko!

There is no UEFI-compatible version of Puppy Slacko.

A forum search for "UEFI" would have found this for you -
"Fatdog64 with UEFI support: Test build (31 December 2012)"
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=83402

And in general, I agree with greengeek's comments.
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3463
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 05:25    Post_subject:  

I'm no expert on this stuff, but...

1. I bought at my local "pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap" shop:
A PC that included a mobo=Asrock_H61M-S that includes a UEFI BIOS, that hasn't caused me any problems.
The BIOS seems to be rather sophisticated.
It automatically detects if I've changed to attempting to boot from a different device [HDD, or CD, or Flash Drive], although it does normally get it wrong 1st time, and I need to hit F11 and tell it which device to boot.
It then boots every time from that device, until the next time I change the boot device.

2. I've tried changing the order of boot devices in the BIOS Setup, but that order seems to automatically revert each time I change the boot device at bootup.
I just don't know how these things work, but it isn't causing me problems, so I leave well alone.

3. I successfully use 7 Puppies as follows:
a. Slacko-5.3.3.1 [My number-1 Puppy]
b. Dpup-Exprimo-5.x.3.4.2.8
c. Racy-5.3
d. Precise-5.4.2
e. Fatdog64-600-Firefox
f. Lina-003
g. Macpup-529
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tempestuous

Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 5271
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 08:12    Post_subject:  

Sylvander wrote:
I bought ...
... mobo=Asrock_H61M-S that includes a UEFI BIOS

I think you were just plain lucky. UEFI implementations vary greatly, and fortunately Asrock's UEFI appears to be not too restrictive.

It's worth reading the information in the Fat Dog thread, particularly the test results by kirk and JustGreg.
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3463
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 10:10    Post_subject:  

tempestuous wrote:
I think you were just plain lucky.

I think the shop knows what it's doing, and made sure that they chose to use a mobo with trouble free UEFI BIOS.
They are very selective in what items they choose to stock.
I'm normally not disappointed when I buy stuff from them.
When my old 2003 PC broke down, I went straight to the shop and bought my new basic PC...
[like this at £326, but with no OS at £245 if I remember right]...
i.e. Bought within 3 hours [in a hurry, with fingers crossed].
Told them I wanted to use it with Puppy Linux, and they said it would be OK.
See all of their various PC offerings listed here.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 10:32    Post_subject:  

Sylvander you are very lucky to know that Shop then.

Here in Sweden one of our biggest chain of shops
that have Acer Notebook Laptops like teh one OP
write about sell them cheap but these guys know nothing
about UEFI at all. I made a phone call and he told me that
if I try to boot a Linux on it then it lose the Warranty.

that makes me pessimistic if OP will get his money back of
some other computer as a compensation.

I was just a few seconds from buying maybe an identical
Packard Bell Notenook as the OP
PB are a Sister or Daughter company of Acer.

So reading the FatDog thread and others on UEFI is a must.

I am not clever enough to get it so I decided to wait until
this bad UEFI situation clears up.

To OP some computers do allow that one make DVD recovery
back ups of the recovery just in case something happen.

I've also read that one could open the case and take out battery
and let the Capacitors that is back up decharge and then
put back battery and start all over and that should work
but most likely the warranty will goes down the drain
so think before you do anything drastic.

Most likely try to get your money back. or to find out how
to dual book buy joining Acer forum online or getting to know
other linux users with same Acer and learn from them.

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not an ideal solution though
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2596
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 13:50    Post_subject:  

nooby wrote:
Here in Sweden one of our biggest chain of shops
that have Acer Notebook Laptops like teh one OP
write about sell them cheap but these guys know nothing
about UEFI at all. I made a phone call and he told me that
if I try to boot a Linux on it then it lose the Warranty.

I am having the same experience in New Zealand. It seems that none of the staff who are working in retail stores have any idea what UEFI is, or how much it cripples a PC.

I will be writing to our major retailers to explain that they are in breach of the NZ "Fair Trading Act" by failing to explain to their staff and customers that the new PCs are partially crippled, and that there is a risk of invalidating the warranty or even destroying the machine if an attempt is made to trial a different operating system.

Every PC which contains this crippleware should be highlighted with a very large sticker warning the customer of this danger. And the price should be dropped by 50% compared to previous models which did not contain this crippled function.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 15:19    Post_subject:  

Keep us informed what they answer.
Somebody better at using English than what I am
should write to Acer forum online and ask if somebody
can help HoerMirAuf the OP in this thread who actually
need a solution so try to help him. I am not clever enough sadly
But I want to buy a new computer but don't trust there is a way
to know in advance if it is the easy to change or the hard to change
version them sell here locally. They are special made for Sweden
due to our åäö needs to be changed on each of them.

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not an ideal solution though
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2596
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 15 Feb 2013, 15:28    Post_subject:  

I wonder what happens if a Win8/UEFI PC gets a virus? Can you boot into Hirens or some other preferred OS to clean things up?

Most customers would expect they could recover the PC using traditional methods like this but maybe not...

Maybe as well as locking down the OS it forces the user to go to specially authorised repair centres?
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HoerMirAuf


Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Würzburg

PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb 2013, 06:02    Post_subject:  

Hi Volks,

thanks a lot for all your replies!!

I think, UEFI is not a bad thing, but its too new to have much experience with it. It seems complicated but the same i thougt the first time about grub Wink

After a long quest a have found 3 solutions.
The savest: ( i`m not sure, if i am right) Compile a sign uefi able kernel image and boot it with a microsoft-certificated bootloader like shim. But such things nothing for noobs like me Smile

The Next: Disable secure-boot option in Bios. After talking with some guys from bios-mod forum, they shows me a undocumented way to disable secure-boot in Bios. (Great, thank you guys from bios-mod forum!) Now it is able to boot a unsigned efi image. But .... here it is necessary to know sometihng about efi. I was not able with my knowledge to make it work.

The last (thats my way): Grapp a untouched Win 8 PRO image. There are legal ways with setup-tool from microsoft o borrow a install-dvd from a friend. You can read out your Product-Key with pkeys.exe tool. But that was not needful because the Key was deposited in the Bios. Set the HDD to mdos Partition table (with gparted - Attention! All data will be lost!) an make a cleaninstall (please, save your HDD first with clonezilla or something similar) The advantage: No more grabbware on your unit! Win8 will be aktivated with your Product-key during your first internet connection.

Ok.... now you have your good old mdos Partitiontable!!! Install Grub4Dos or Grub .... an have fun! Smile

I am glad my Puppy Slacko is running now beside Windows 8 !!!

( i know, my englisch isn t very good, apologize)
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darkcity


Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2462
Location: near here

PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb 2013, 06:45    Post_subject:  

congrats on getting your setup working.

My understanding is that how easy it is to boot Linux on UEFI depends on how the hardware vendor implemented. Annoyingly there does not seem to be standardized way.

Also EFI seems to have many bugs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2aq5M3Q76U

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Sat 16 Feb 2013, 08:16    Post_subject:  

wow good that you did get what you wanted
but it is not a noob solution at all Smile

suppose I buy Packard Bell Notebook
here locally. I don't trust I could replicate
what you describe there at all.
and I would not have access to that DVD
that is needed either.

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optiplexic

Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2013, 02:41    Post_subject:    

Changing BIOS mode from UEFI to Legacy

This article only applies to: Windows 8 Notebooks

Bootable media from previous versions of Windows may not be recognized in Windows 8. You can change the Boot Mode setting from UEFI to Legacy BIOS, and it should recognize the bootable device.

Use the following steps to change the Boot Mode:

Completely shut down your computer.
Power on the system. As soon as the first logo screen appears, immediately press F2 to enter the BIOS.
Use the right arrow key to select Boot.
With Boot Mode highlighted, press Enter, and then use the down arrow to select Legacy BIOS.
Press Enter.
Press F10, and select Yes to save the change and exit the BIOS.

This is from the acer website, the desktop is a little different. According to the people who have read the agreement, Microsoft states that you must be able to disable the secure boot on the machine. So I guess they should all have instructions on their websites. (Microsoft probably did not want a lawsuit!)
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2013, 04:43    Post_subject:  

Thanks much appreciated that you share this info
hopefully that works on our Swedish versions
of Acer and Packard Bell too. But I don't dare to buy one
just for to find out Smile

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