hardware problem: mobo or hdd? [solved]
hardware problem: mobo or hdd? [solved]
I have a troublesome computer with Win XP Pro SP3 installed. It has hardware issues that imply either a bad mobo or a bad hard drive, but probably not both at the same time. This computer is temperature sensitive, as it won't boot in temperatures below 65 degrees F. It has refused to boot a few times at room temperature, necessitating a repair from installation disk to make it operable again. A colleague opined that this behavior suggests swollen caps on the mobo ECS P4VXAD, VIA chipset. That is not the case: there are no swollen caps on the mobo. When the computer is booted after being off, for say 10 or 15 minutes, the boot is problematic. The first false start, the BIOS does not make it to the memory test, and just stops at the mobo detection. I do a manual restart using the front button. and next boot the BIOS performs the memory count, but will not proceed to detect IDE drives. The next boot, the computer makes it to the Windows splash screen with blue progress dots, but freezes on this screen. Then I am prompted to do a safe mode boot; and subsequently rebooting from safe mode, the computer finally makes it to Windows desktop...or freezes again. Today, I deprecated the processor from 2.0 GHz P4 to 1.6 GHz P4. This modification did not improve the behavior of the computer. Does this behavior suggest a bad motherboard, or a bad hard drive? I invite all opinions.
Last edited by nubc on Wed 01 May 2013, 16:58, edited 3 times in total.
http://www.motherboard.cz/mb/ecs/P4VXAD.htm
http://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWebSite/Produc ... 18&LanID=0
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Why not use Hiren's boot cd to diagnose it.
Uncouple the hard drive before testing.
Dust....etc around the processor....fans...?????
I would use 15.1 version....not the latest.
Near the bottom of page.
http://www.hirensbootcd.org/hbcd-v151/
Filename: Hirens.BootCD.15.1.zip
Filesize: 498.36 MB (522565534 bytes)
ISO MD5: B5DE7A10DD1586D47535372EA1AD9BED
ZIP MD5: 5B8E9240AE8CF74939B60AD872CBBABA
""""""""""""""
All versions
http://www.hirensbootcd.org/category/all-versions/
Chris.
http://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWebSite/Produc ... 18&LanID=0
::::::::::::::
Why not use Hiren's boot cd to diagnose it.
Uncouple the hard drive before testing.
Dust....etc around the processor....fans...?????
I would use 15.1 version....not the latest.
Near the bottom of page.
http://www.hirensbootcd.org/hbcd-v151/
Filename: Hirens.BootCD.15.1.zip
Filesize: 498.36 MB (522565534 bytes)
ISO MD5: B5DE7A10DD1586D47535372EA1AD9BED
ZIP MD5: 5B8E9240AE8CF74939B60AD872CBBABA
""""""""""""""
All versions
http://www.hirensbootcd.org/category/all-versions/
Chris.
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Bruce B
Re: hardware problem: mobo or hdd?
Here is an outline of my workaround for the same problem.
1) In cold weather wrap the machine in a blanket, keeping the opening for the fans unobstructed.
2) Keep in running to avoid cold starts
3) If you don't keep it running and have to start cold, interrupt the boot and wait for it to warm up first.
I used GRUB to do it. You can use the timer, lack of timer and/or the arrow keys to halt and delay the boot.
~~~~~~~~
Also, I agree that it could be the hard drive or the motherboard, but I suspect the board first.
Another thing is if you have an AGP card and it is slightly unseated, it can cause bad problems and may be hard to diagnose. Rather than diagnose it, I would simply make sure it is seated.
In the meantime, you have to perform tests on it until you locate the exact cause of the problem.
~~
1) In cold weather wrap the machine in a blanket, keeping the opening for the fans unobstructed.
2) Keep in running to avoid cold starts
3) If you don't keep it running and have to start cold, interrupt the boot and wait for it to warm up first.
I used GRUB to do it. You can use the timer, lack of timer and/or the arrow keys to halt and delay the boot.
~~~~~~~~
Also, I agree that it could be the hard drive or the motherboard, but I suspect the board first.
Another thing is if you have an AGP card and it is slightly unseated, it can cause bad problems and may be hard to diagnose. Rather than diagnose it, I would simply make sure it is seated.
In the meantime, you have to perform tests on it until you locate the exact cause of the problem.
~~
Not the hard drive for sure.
Could be a number of other things tho -- can you PM me (or post here) a link to a not-blurry, high-resolution image of the actual motherboard? I'd like to see if any caps are bulging.
If you want to do it yourself (assuming here that you don't know much about electronics, if anything) -- look for the cylindrical objects on the board; each should have a silver top. If any of them are bulging or appear to be leaking some sort of alien goop, that's your problem right there.
Hard drives *tend to* have mechanical failure which manifests as a clicking noise and produces other (less dramatic) symptoms.
If the motherboard checks out OK, next stop for me would be to put a multimeter to that thing's power supply and see if that's acting up. Maybe stick it in the fridge for a few minutes first, to simulate cold weather?
To turn on the power supply without booting the system, take a thick paper clip (relax, I do it all the time, as does my tech-shop friend when the power supply tester isn't within reach) and cut it into a U shape, stripping some of the plastic off each end. Then insert it into the ATX connector so that you bridge the green wire with a black wire. The power supply should cut on if it's plugged in (OK to do it plugged or unplugged). As long as the paper clip is in there, the supply will be on.
I can guide you through using a multimeter but that'll take more text (and some pictures) than I'm willing to stuff into this particular post. Let me know if you need that help and I'll post it, though.
EDIT: wow, that's what I get for skimming the first post -- sorry that I asked about the caps when you've already addressed that!
Could be a number of other things tho -- can you PM me (or post here) a link to a not-blurry, high-resolution image of the actual motherboard? I'd like to see if any caps are bulging.
If you want to do it yourself (assuming here that you don't know much about electronics, if anything) -- look for the cylindrical objects on the board; each should have a silver top. If any of them are bulging or appear to be leaking some sort of alien goop, that's your problem right there.
Hard drives *tend to* have mechanical failure which manifests as a clicking noise and produces other (less dramatic) symptoms.
If the motherboard checks out OK, next stop for me would be to put a multimeter to that thing's power supply and see if that's acting up. Maybe stick it in the fridge for a few minutes first, to simulate cold weather?
To turn on the power supply without booting the system, take a thick paper clip (relax, I do it all the time, as does my tech-shop friend when the power supply tester isn't within reach) and cut it into a U shape, stripping some of the plastic off each end. Then insert it into the ATX connector so that you bridge the green wire with a black wire. The power supply should cut on if it's plugged in (OK to do it plugged or unplugged). As long as the paper clip is in there, the supply will be on.
I can guide you through using a multimeter but that'll take more text (and some pictures) than I'm willing to stuff into this particular post. Let me know if you need that help and I'll post it, though.
EDIT: wow, that's what I get for skimming the first post -- sorry that I asked about the caps when you've already addressed that!
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Bruce B
On the underside of most hard drives is what I'd call for lack of proper terminology, an electronic interface.Not the hard drive for sure
I've ran into hard drives a couple times that I think probably had problems with this so-called electronic interface. The symptoms were generally along these lines: The motherboard would randomly not recognize the hard drive. A replacement hard drive solved the problem.
~
That is exactly the same issue that drove me into the arms (paws) of multisession puppylinux..... ah the first time running linux from RAM and being able to save stuff back to a normal CD....
Never could fix or find the problem.. But happily made it months and months before a family member gave me a less broken used computer to tide me over till I got some cash...
Try removing harddrive and just using machines CD or DVD or Bluray burner AS the harddrive... I'm using it now posting this from a computer used for projects. Each project gets its own DVD so nothing is messed up and this is a brand new computer with a harddrive unplugged. Its been unplugged for months, haven't had the need to hassle opening the machine up to plug it back in.
Never could fix or find the problem.. But happily made it months and months before a family member gave me a less broken used computer to tide me over till I got some cash...
Try removing harddrive and just using machines CD or DVD or Bluray burner AS the harddrive... I'm using it now posting this from a computer used for projects. Each project gets its own DVD so nothing is messed up and this is a brand new computer with a harddrive unplugged. Its been unplugged for months, haven't had the need to hassle opening the machine up to plug it back in.
That is what the guy in the diagnostic shop said most likely was occurring in the old computer I referenced and was willing to have me buy a new IDE controller card to get past the quirky P4 ide controller on the MB. Ended up buying some used RAM to increase the usefulness of Multisession puppylinux since I knew that worked...Bruce B wrote:On the underside of most hard drives is what I'd call for lack of proper terminology, an electronic interface.Not the hard drive for sure
I've ran into hard drives a couple times that I think probably had problems with this so-called electronic interface. The symptoms were generally along these lines: The motherboard would randomly not recognize the hard drive. A replacement hard drive solved the problem.
~
the hardrive checked OK with his tools.Bruce B, your "electronic interface" is called a drive controller 
Confusingly enough, so is the part on the motherboard that interfaces to the drive... not sure how *that* happened but I can hazard a guess.
In the days of 20mb "Winchester" hard drives -- using a protocol called MFM -- the drives were "dumb". There was no controller card on the drive itself. All of the electronics were on an ISA card that attached to the PC's motherboard.
So the term "hard drive controller" is a legacy from when there was only one of them in a system, rather than two. For the curious, the chip normally tasked with drive control in a modern computer is the "southbridge" -- it handles most of the IO (the northbridge --almost always heatsinked-- handles graphics and memory, usually). This also includes PCI and ISA slots, not just the ports on the back...
The southbridge, combined with the northbridge, form the "chipset" -- the pair of chips (sometimes combined as a single chip, but not often) that interfaces the CPU with the rest of the system.
Worth noting... I have a 386 system; it was my first PC -- I've rebuilt it multiple times, but the specs are pretty much stock. Its drive controllers are not on the motherboard (and never have been!). They're new enough to be IDE... one ISA card runs the hard drive and up to two floppy drives, as well as the serial and parallel ports (!), while the CD drive is run off the sound card. Why the sound card? Well, that was common back then -- CD drives don't use the original ATA spec, but a slight variant called ATAPI. So they aren't compatible with (HDD only) IDE controller cards of that era. It wasn't till "Ultra ATA" came out some time later that the two could coexist. (and they still often don't -- there's a reason I always use separate cables for HDD and CD drives, namely that half the time the system won't boot if they're on the same cable...)
Confusingly enough, so is the part on the motherboard that interfaces to the drive... not sure how *that* happened but I can hazard a guess.
In the days of 20mb "Winchester" hard drives -- using a protocol called MFM -- the drives were "dumb". There was no controller card on the drive itself. All of the electronics were on an ISA card that attached to the PC's motherboard.
So the term "hard drive controller" is a legacy from when there was only one of them in a system, rather than two. For the curious, the chip normally tasked with drive control in a modern computer is the "southbridge" -- it handles most of the IO (the northbridge --almost always heatsinked-- handles graphics and memory, usually). This also includes PCI and ISA slots, not just the ports on the back...
The southbridge, combined with the northbridge, form the "chipset" -- the pair of chips (sometimes combined as a single chip, but not often) that interfaces the CPU with the rest of the system.
Worth noting... I have a 386 system; it was my first PC -- I've rebuilt it multiple times, but the specs are pretty much stock. Its drive controllers are not on the motherboard (and never have been!). They're new enough to be IDE... one ISA card runs the hard drive and up to two floppy drives, as well as the serial and parallel ports (!), while the CD drive is run off the sound card. Why the sound card? Well, that was common back then -- CD drives don't use the original ATA spec, but a slight variant called ATAPI. So they aren't compatible with (HDD only) IDE controller cards of that era. It wasn't till "Ultra ATA" came out some time later that the two could coexist. (and they still often don't -- there's a reason I always use separate cables for HDD and CD drives, namely that half the time the system won't boot if they're on the same cable...)
Re: hardware problem: mobo or hdd?
Sounds to me like an underpowered [or failing?] PSU.nubc wrote:When the computer is booted after being off, for say 10 or 15 minutes, the boot is problematic. The first false start, the BIOS does not make it to the memory test, and just stops at the mobo detection. I do a manual restart using the front button. and next boot the BIOS performs the memory count, but will not proceed to detect IDE drives. The next boot, the computer makes it to the Windows splash screen with blue progress dots, but freezes on this screen.
Swap in a known good [more powerful] PSU and see what happens.
It may well be the RAM, in which case changing the mobo would be the easiest solution. I know I have spent hours trying to find suitable RAM for this mobo, and I won't waste my time on that again.
Suppose I decide to change the mobo. Is there any way to get Windows XP SP3 to accept the new hardware (without starting from scratch)? Can I install without formatting and thereby preserve drivers and apps, although I am certain that WinXP will be deprecated from SP3 to SP2? Or should I just bite the bullet and start over? I'll google non-destructive re-install of Windows XP.
Suppose I decide to change the mobo. Is there any way to get Windows XP SP3 to accept the new hardware (without starting from scratch)? Can I install without formatting and thereby preserve drivers and apps, although I am certain that WinXP will be deprecated from SP3 to SP2? Or should I just bite the bullet and start over? I'll google non-destructive re-install of Windows XP.
I disposed of the ECS board and installed a new (never used) Syntax SV266AD ver 3.1 motherboard. I have been tussling with this POS for many hours now, and I am at the stage of installation after all files are installed to hard drive, after the first reboot. Windows reboots and continues the installation with 39 minutes remaining until setup is complete. The installation stalls at various stages thereafter. When LAN is enabled the install stalls/freezes on "Installing Devices" at about 35 minutes (until setup is complete). When LAN is disabled the installation makes it to the next stage "Installing Network", but this stalls and freezes at 31 minutes (until setup is complete), with the progress bar showing about half finished for "Installing Network." I have disabled USB, onboard audio, and many other settings, plus changed the video card, and changed the RAM to a single stick of 512 MB PC2100 DDR, but the installation has never gotten past the freeze during "Installing Network". This is very frustrating and I could sure use some advice from someone who has experienced this difficulty. I have restarted setup by pulling the plug probably more than 30 times. I hesitate to reveal how difficult it was to get the installation disk to transfer files to hard drive. When you consider that I went through 6 hard drives, two good installation disks, and a fresh burn of the installation disk, you may get the picture. I have no idea why 5 optical drives and 3 IDE cables could not read those 3 installation disks without errors, necessitating skipping files. Let's not dwell on that waste of my time. Windows now boots to the detection phase and stalls. What to do?
Last edited by nubc on Sat 27 Apr 2013, 11:02, edited 4 times in total.
I guess you mean, replace the power supply. No, I haven't replaced the power supply. Other than the fact that there isn't much else to replace, why do you suggest I check it? How do you suggest I check it, with a PS checker with LEDs?
EDIT: I'm going to bed, before I wind up taking a hammer to this POS. The PS checker indicates the power supply is okay. And now I am restarting installation using a replacement power supply. Nope, freezes on "Installing Network", as before, so it's probably not the power supply.
The problem could be a lot of things, A lot of little itty bitty trivial trifling things, that are mostly tweaks found in BIOS. Like RAM speed, USB 2.0, Speedstep, onboard devices...things you can usually ignore.
I tried to install Windows from an external optical drive, but Windows wouldn't have it. After first reboot, Windows insists on getting files from the CDROM (or floppy), and doesn't see a USB drive. Has anybody ever installed Windows XP from an external USB optical drive?
EDIT: I'm going to bed, before I wind up taking a hammer to this POS. The PS checker indicates the power supply is okay. And now I am restarting installation using a replacement power supply. Nope, freezes on "Installing Network", as before, so it's probably not the power supply.
The problem could be a lot of things, A lot of little itty bitty trivial trifling things, that are mostly tweaks found in BIOS. Like RAM speed, USB 2.0, Speedstep, onboard devices...things you can usually ignore.
I tried to install Windows from an external optical drive, but Windows wouldn't have it. After first reboot, Windows insists on getting files from the CDROM (or floppy), and doesn't see a USB drive. Has anybody ever installed Windows XP from an external USB optical drive?
Solution: Change HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) from "ACPI" to "Standard PC". Run setup again. When prompted to "Press F6 to load 3rd party RAID or SCSI drivers" press F5 instead to select "Standard PC" as HAL.. (Or, alternatively, press F7 with no confirmation of HAL selected as Standard PC. Not tried.)
There is another problem when installing this way, as "Standard PC", which is a powerdown issue. In BIOS, ACPI power management must be disabled, and so adjustments must be made in Windows. In Device Manager, elect to show hidden devices from View, and then enable "NT Apm/Legacy Interface Node", which will have a red X on it. Also, doublecheck Power Options in Control Panel to ensure that APM is enabled.