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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Barry Kauler announces his retirement from Puppy
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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drongo


Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 353
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue 01 Oct 2013, 17:50    Post_subject: XP puppy  

I wasn't thinking about re-skinning Puppy to make it look like XP. There's no reason why you couldn't do that, and I think there has been at least one variant which did just that.

More importantly, you want it to work easily with older graphics cards, wi-fi chipsets, older disk-drive technologies, software modems, etc.

You wouldn't necessarily need to support multi-core, PAE, large resolution displays and so on.

So you'd probably need an older kernel, a nifty ndiswrapper tool/app, lots of old obscure drivers.

If you wanted you could make it deep-dive into an existing XP filesystem and recover all user documents, pictures, browser bookmarks. Not sure how you'd store them as some of those boxes won't have a USB connector on them.

Then we could spend six months arguing about the best window manager and browser before settling on something lightweight which won't cripple the PC hardware.

No puppies were skinned or re-skinned in the preparation of this post.
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oui

Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 2096
Location: near Woof (Germany) :-) Acer Laptop emachines 2 GB RAM AMD64. franco-/germanophone, +/- anglophone

PostPosted: Tue 01 Oct 2013, 18:50    Post_subject:  

Hi

simargl8 wrote:
I think this whole Woof idea of basing Puppy on other distribution, and not using native package
manager and package format of that distribution was proven wrong.


Also me, can't understand that... An about ONE MANN SHOW (is not completely correct: a second developper did joint the creator of the distro in the last times) produces a complete Linux distro completely OUT THE BOOKS LFS / BLSF in 3 form (form 1 out the new book announced at distrowatch in the last days! form 2 and 3 out the last book as the sources have to be ported first to the sources git and then to binaries, and the setting up details for full automatic precessing have to be solved)

- build it yourself half automatized through compilation from scratch of the sources the books out a precedent installed version of the distro or an other Linux while you are yet using the the other Linux Rolling Eyes (difficult as you have to solve divers setting up details yourself out the infos of the books) as an experimental system
see http://nutyx.org/sections/view.php?id=70&action=construire
- install it out binaries (method get or pkg-get) from script (http://nutyx.org/articles/view.php?id=42&action=installation-depuis-le-script) also out an other Linux while you are yet using the the other Linux Rolling Eyes (Puppy goesn't as the Puppy version of bash use other parameters; Arch Pup did work well, but you can't not do it any more excepted if you can find a copy of the dev.sfs from ArchPup! but the did be retired from the initial depositories from ArchPup... I find a developper retiring his stuff from depositories and critiquing an other developper letting all his stuff since years as BK speaks a "double language". Fans of divers Puplets invest time in learning their new baby and such a developer ruin really all their efforts as such a system have no ensurance of sustainability Wink ) or using the own maintenance system of the distro (the PC is not available for other activities but the result is about warranted) Idea (note: the own maintenance system of the distro is equivalent with the mini-CD) as a stable system
- install it out binaries as far as available and out sources it not available as binaries but only as sources (method prt-get ; read more using google using site:http://nutyx.org/ prt-get and the google translations service!) as a semi-stable system

the second form, the most used one of course, can be installed with only one unique command line in bash and "the" script, I remember while your PC stay completely usable (but a little slow because of the background job that you can see in the little terminal window) - the result is often a full installed and perfectly starting near actual Linux from Scratch with a big amount of KDE stuff including diverse office version!

a one man show, I remember!

the most particular tools are based on scripts coming from an other distro and modified for NuTyx, as NuTyx is the distro about I am reporting now.

see here the used tools http://nutyx.org/articles/view.php?id=132&action=quels-sont-les-outils-a-votre-disposition partially acquired from an other distro.

the fact that especially Puppy did a long time not offer support for the needs of Swiss people (no Swiss keyboard, no US intl as replacement for it in the selections menus, incomplete sign map in the char maps for US intl, "oe" is missing till today, excepted in ArchPup, and the spelling control is protesting till today each time Idea ) is perhaps one of the reason why 3 great Swiss developers did create systems covering divers early ideas from BK:

- live CD under 200 MB 100 % compatible with Ubuntu and full package installer incl. package management (Debris linux, actually not active since 1 1/2 .. 2 years)

- Puppy like Linux but with full user management, full package management and sometimes smaller than Puppy (SliTaz)

- full Linux without concession, having a CD live version and all resumed precedent performances (NuTyx)

perhaps that those developers would have contributed in Puppy if they did have found a amazing and welcoming start instead of the more than 10 years Swiss (India... etc.) refusing environment? If one can't write easily in his own language, the system can't be considered as welcoming for him...

and Puppy can learn a lot of NuTyx, as the system is high performance and fully based on LFS / BLFS (it is "the" automatized LFS!)

a one man show!

last note: the next NuTyx will probably be English based and not French based any more (like Mandrake and SliTaz Mad )...
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 02 Oct 2013, 02:23    Post_subject:  

This nutyx require two partitions
to me as an absolute noob
that is a no no way to go.

Does it not do ordinary frugal install on NTFS?
I mean even Slitaz does that so why not NuTyx?

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I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
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oui

Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 2096
Location: near Woof (Germany) :-) Acer Laptop emachines 2 GB RAM AMD64. franco-/germanophone, +/- anglophone

PostPosted: Wed 02 Oct 2013, 03:08    Post_subject:  

Hi Nooby

why 2 partitions? no reason for that... Only if you have 2 versions of NuTyx at the same time on your disk each in a own partition. And it can be installed
a) on USB stick or drive there is no need of some HD partition
b) in a simple directory (this is used at development time by NuTyx)
c) finished as live ISO (I never did try: the base including dev tools is about only 320 MB but a full install with a good KDE equipment with apps is around 5 GB and more...)

I am about certain it would be possible to operate in a big file as embedded system in some ntfs (as ntfs is not an unique well defined file system!)

the problem with b) is more how you want start it from directory (it never did find a way to do that).

but I come back to the above remark from sigmarl: as NuTyx came directly from a source book, LFS / BLFS, and only use bash scripts, where there are absolutely no use of binaries at the first time, it would be a better base for a really source oriented Puppy Idea (it is possible to say the same about SliTaz. also SliTaz is yet made out sources all in the same git and the version 4.0 includes a completely reviewed tutorial SliTaz from Scratch! Also SliTaz uses tools written in bash! SliTaz has an high performance management system all in a tiny browser renamed, it is a adapted Midori version! I did speak about NuTyx, as did work more with NuTyx in the last time because SliTaz does not work well since version 4 on all my DELL PC's with Pentium and Intel chip sets because it X does not start. People not having this problem can use SliTaz more easy at the documentation and community structure is available in a lot of languages (English and French in about all cases, Russian, Chinese, etc,,,, as diverse new developers are coming from that countries).

salut
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koulaxizis


Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 428
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Wed 02 Oct 2013, 10:55    Post_subject:  

I'd like to make a simple statement: Puppy Linux is my favorite distribution. I have tried almost every available Linux distro and Puppy is the one for me. Barry's retirement must not stop Puppy development. Users come, users go. Developers come, developers go. Puppy has to go on for all of us who love it!
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simargl8

Joined: 06 Feb 2013
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Wed 02 Oct 2013, 16:32    Post_subject:  

oui wrote:
Arch Pup did work well, but you can't not do it any more excepted if you can find a copy of the dev.sfs from ArchPup! but the did be retired from the initial depositories from ArchPup...

ArchPup doesn't exist anymore with that name, now it's called AlphaOS, and because it is based on Arch with its principles I remove every iso and sfs modules from sourceforge that don't belong to the latest version. If Arch is too bleeding edge you can change to some old Puppy Linux versions like 4.1, someone mentioned that as the last good stable Puppy.
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Deacon


Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Wed 02 Oct 2013, 20:59    Post_subject:  

simargl8 wrote:
You're right, no one wants to use Linux distribution with half broken package manager, and
universal excuse as 'Puppy targets old hardware', doesn't work anymore with other
distributions like Slitaz that looks better, uses less ram and has real package manager.

I think this whole Woof idea of basing Puppy on other distribution, and not using native package
manager and package format of that distribution was proven wrong.


Can Slitaz even use Chrome?
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Deacon


Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Wed 02 Oct 2013, 20:59    Post_subject:  

koulaxizis wrote:
I'd like to make a simple statement: Puppy Linux is my favorite distribution. I have tried almost every available Linux distro and Puppy is the one for me. Barry's retirement must not stop Puppy development. Users come, users go. Developers come, developers go. Puppy has to go on for all of us who love it!


Yep. I'm staying on this ship.
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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 477
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 02 Oct 2013, 23:22    Post_subject:  

Me too as I like using the old Pups and also I interested in what Rerwin is doing with 528 I hope some stuff will get backported to older Puppies - that this will become standard pratice where possible.

I would like down the track some statement of certainty given over the future of Pup - it is all very well saying that Pup is a fun project but with all due respect with the number of users world wide it is hardly an amatuer effort now.. In fact users worldwide must be quite staggering number.

Edited_time_total
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Volhout


Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 402

PostPosted: Thu 03 Oct 2013, 08:50    Post_subject: I'm hanging on too...  

I am hanging on too, because I love all of you !!
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nitehawk


Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 538
Location: West Central Florida

PostPosted: Thu 03 Oct 2013, 16:19    Post_subject:  

darry1966 wrote:
Me too as I like using the old Pups


...yeah, same here. Sticking around the kennels for sure.
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu 03 Oct 2013, 22:25    Post_subject:  

Well, even if Puppy Linux stopped here and now, it's already grown into something completely usable.

I use Precise Puppy 5.7.1... Retro

It already runs a bunch of applications, can download and install some of the most important packages, compiles a bunch of apps.

I can play Playstation games with a decent speed (Celeron 2.5ghz, 128k, bus 400). The latest version of ePSXe works like a charm combined with PCSX-Reloaded plugins). It doesn't work in older puppies.

I'm used to buy old hardware so puppy linux will remain my number 1... for a long long time.

The first time I used puppy was the last year with a 4GB hard drive, it had too many errors to run Windows XP and W98 was too much, too old. I spent 6 months watching videos and surfing the web with Puppy in that 4GB HD, it was a nice experience indeed.

For those who are lost... if you're looking for a M$ Office alternative .. try kingsoft-office_9.1.0.4184~a12p1_i386.deb, you'll have a M$ Office 2013 clone right in front of you with just 1 click. It's just like the real thing.

Wine 1.7.3 - check
JRE Update 40 - check
etc - check

It all works in a matter of SECONDS. You don't have to be patient.

I could go on and on, I should, but I guess that's it for now.
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Nathan F


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Wadsworth, OH (occasionally home)

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 11:08    Post_subject:  

I've recently gotten my daughter a Nook HD, which for those not familiar is an Android based tablet. I'd have to say it does everything the "average" consumer expects from a computer. It's impressive. It kicks my old desktop's rear so far as graphics display go, it runs decently fast, and even under heavy use it doesn't heat up.

And that's not my only experience with Arm devices. My best guess is that even if the desktop computer metaphor doesn't die, the X86 platform will. Arm is already making inroads in the netbook sector and full size laptops are planned. Development of Arm based desktops and servers is well underway. And there are plenty of crossover devices planned too.

In that light Barry's shift of focus makes perfect sense. It also seems like a coffin nail for Puppy in my opinion, although I'm prepared to be proven wrong. I just don't see a cohesive community. There are too many different views on what makes Puppy special and what makes Puppy "Puppy". There's substantial cruft in any important forum thread as people go way off topic. The target shifts pretty fast, too.

Also, I tend to think the focus on a live CD is past it's expiration date. Live USB is pretty useful still and may continue to be so for some time. but while I'm not prepared to say optical media is dead, it's on it's downward slope for sure. I just don't see a point. I also think it would be better to start distributing most linux distros as disc images rather than ISO images, including the ones intended to be run from hard disc. This will become even more important if I'm right and Arm continues to displace X86 and eventually becomes the dominant computing architecture. I tend to think that in a decades time most operating systems will be flashed right onto an Arm board or installed to a memory card, and probably less of the latter than the former.

Anyway, I used to have more of a "leadership" role so I can speak from experience when I say that it was like herding cats. It would take a strong person to step in and maintain a clear vision for the project if Puppy is to servive. I doubt a committee could do it. The most important function of a leader in a community like this is to be able to say NO to the vast majority of ideas until they have proven their worth. Barry is very good at this. most people can't do it.

I know this is negative, and I expect I'll get more than one negative response. I'll take a wait and see stance, but I don't expect to see Puppy do very well after Barry's retirement. Feel free to prove me wrong and call me names.

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jimwg

Joined: 18 Aug 2013
Posts: 121

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 11:31    Post_subject:  

Nathan F wrote:
I know this is negative, and I expect I'll get more than one negative response. I'll take a wait and see stance, but I don't expect to see Puppy do very well after Barry's retirement. Feel free to prove me wrong and call me names.


Just a pair of newbie questions:

1. What do you feel is the best course for Puppy "management" to go and whom should take the helm?

2. Would you consider "Slax" the philosophical heir of Puppy and would borrowing some of its virtues help enhance Puppy and make it more attractive to newcomers?

Thanks and please keep up your great work and Linux contributions!

Jim in NYC
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 11:51    Post_subject:  

Nathan F wrote:
I've recently gotten my daughter a Nook HD, which for those not familiar is an Android based tablet. I'd have to say it does everything the "average" consumer expects from a computer. It's impressive. It kicks my old desktop's rear so far as graphics display go, it runs decently fast, and even under heavy use it doesn't heat up.


The killer is instant access to a million apps and the end of having to compile. The most controversial issue on Puppy has always been the repository...how to handle dependencies (static vs dynamic apps), including apt-get, etc. The concept of woof becomes outdated with a single repository of apps that work on all devices.

The other killer is the price. Being able to purchase a new computer with 4 gigs of Ram and 32 gigs of HD for under $200 kind of defeats loading a small distro where most apps require downloading additional dependencies (if they run at all).

Edited_time_total
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