Barry Kauler announces his retirement from Puppy

Message

simargl8 · #81 Post by **simargl8** » Wed 02 Oct 2013, 20:32

oui wrote:Arch Pup did work well, but you can't not do it any more excepted if you can find a copy of the dev.sfs from ArchPup! but the did be retired from the initial depositories from ArchPup...

ArchPup doesn't exist anymore with that name, now it's called AlphaOS, and because it is based on Arch with its principles I remove every iso and sfs modules from sourceforge that don't belong to the latest version. If Arch is too bleeding edge you can change to some old Puppy Linux versions like 4.1, someone mentioned that as the last good stable Puppy.

Deacon · #82 Post by **Deacon** » Thu 03 Oct 2013, 00:59

simargl8 wrote:You're right, no one wants to use Linux distribution with half broken package manager, and
universal excuse as 'Puppy targets old hardware', doesn't work anymore with other
distributions like Slitaz that looks better, uses less ram and has real package manager.

I think this whole Woof idea of basing Puppy on other distribution, and not using native package
manager and package format of that distribution was proven wrong.

Can Slitaz even use Chrome?

Deacon · #83 Post by **Deacon** » Thu 03 Oct 2013, 00:59

koulaxizis wrote:I'd like to make a simple statement: Puppy Linux is my favorite distribution. I have tried almost every available Linux distro and Puppy is the one for me. Barry's retirement must not stop Puppy development. Users come, users go. Developers come, developers go. Puppy has to go on for all of us who love it!

Yep. I'm staying on this ship.

darry1966 · #84 Post by **darry1966** » Thu 03 Oct 2013, 03:22

Me too as I like using the old Pups and also I interested in what Rerwin is doing with 528 I hope some stuff will get backported to older Puppies - that this will become standard pratice where possible.

I would like down the track some statement of certainty given over the future of Pup - it is all very well saying that Pup is a fun project but with all due respect with the number of users world wide it is hardly an amatuer effort now.. In fact users worldwide must be quite staggering number.

Volhout · #85 Post by **Volhout** » Thu 03 Oct 2013, 12:50

I am hanging on too, because I love all of you !!

nitehawk · #86 Post by **nitehawk** » Thu 03 Oct 2013, 20:19

darry1966 wrote:Me too as I like using the old Pups

...yeah, same here. Sticking around the kennels for sure.

jlst · #87 Post by **jlst** » Fri 04 Oct 2013, 02:25

Well, even if Puppy Linux stopped here and now, it's already grown into something completely usable.

I use Precise Puppy 5.7.1... Retro

It already runs a bunch of applications, can download and install some of the most important packages, compiles a bunch of apps.

I can play Playstation games with a decent speed (Celeron 2.5ghz, 128k, bus 400). The latest version of ePSXe works like a charm combined with PCSX-Reloaded plugins). It doesn't work in older puppies.

I'm used to buy old hardware so puppy linux will remain my number 1... for a long long time.

The first time I used puppy was the last year with a 4GB hard drive, it had too many errors to run Windows XP and W98 was too much, too old. I spent 6 months watching videos and surfing the web with Puppy in that 4GB HD, it was a nice experience indeed.

For those who are lost... if you're looking for a M$ Office alternative .. try kingsoft-office_9.1.0.4184~a12p1_i386.deb, you'll have a M$ Office 2013 clone right in front of you with just 1 click. It's just like the real thing.

Wine 1.7.3 - check
JRE Update 40 - check
etc - check

It all works in a matter of SECONDS. You don't have to be patient.

I could go on and on, I should, but I guess that's it for now.

Nathan F · #88 Post by **Nathan F** » Fri 04 Oct 2013, 15:08

I've recently gotten my daughter a Nook HD, which for those not familiar is an Android based tablet. I'd have to say it does everything the "average" consumer expects from a computer. It's impressive. It kicks my old desktop's rear so far as graphics display go, it runs decently fast, and even under heavy use it doesn't heat up.

And that's not my only experience with Arm devices. My best guess is that even if the desktop computer metaphor doesn't die, the X86 platform will. Arm is already making inroads in the netbook sector and full size laptops are planned. Development of Arm based desktops and servers is well underway. And there are plenty of crossover devices planned too.

In that light Barry's shift of focus makes perfect sense. It also seems like a coffin nail for Puppy in my opinion, although I'm prepared to be proven wrong. I just don't see a cohesive community. There are too many different views on what makes Puppy special and what makes Puppy "Puppy". There's substantial cruft in any important forum thread as people go way off topic. The target shifts pretty fast, too.

Also, I tend to think the focus on a live CD is past it's expiration date. Live USB is pretty useful still and may continue to be so for some time. but while I'm not prepared to say optical media is dead, it's on it's downward slope for sure. I just don't see a point. I also think it would be better to start distributing most linux distros as disc images rather than ISO images, including the ones intended to be run from hard disc. This will become even more important if I'm right and Arm continues to displace X86 and eventually becomes the dominant computing architecture. I tend to think that in a decades time most operating systems will be flashed right onto an Arm board or installed to a memory card, and probably less of the latter than the former.

Anyway, I used to have more of a "leadership" role so I can speak from experience when I say that it was like herding cats. It would take a strong person to step in and maintain a clear vision for the project if Puppy is to servive. I doubt a committee could do it. The most important function of a leader in a community like this is to be able to say NO to the vast majority of ideas until they have proven their worth. Barry is very good at this. most people can't do it.

I know this is negative, and I expect I'll get more than one negative response. I'll take a wait and see stance, but I don't expect to see Puppy do very well after Barry's retirement. Feel free to prove me wrong and call me names.

jimwg · #89 Post by **jimwg** » Fri 04 Oct 2013, 15:31

Nathan F wrote:I know this is negative, and I expect I'll get more than one negative response. I'll take a wait and see stance, but I don't expect to see Puppy do very well after Barry's retirement. Feel free to prove me wrong and call me names.

Just a pair of newbie questions:

1. What do you feel is the best course for Puppy "management" to go and whom should take the helm?

2. Would you consider "Slax" the philosophical heir of Puppy and would borrowing some of its virtues help enhance Puppy and make it more attractive to newcomers?

Thanks and please keep up your great work and Linux contributions!

Jim in NYC

jpeps · #90 Post by **jpeps** » Fri 04 Oct 2013, 15:51

Nathan F wrote:I've recently gotten my daughter a Nook HD, which for those not familiar is an Android based tablet. I'd have to say it does everything the "average" consumer expects from a computer. It's impressive. It kicks my old desktop's rear so far as graphics display go, it runs decently fast, and even under heavy use it doesn't heat up.

The killer is instant access to a million apps and the end of having to compile. The most controversial issue on Puppy has always been the repository...how to handle dependencies (static vs dynamic apps), including apt-get, etc. The concept of woof becomes outdated with a single repository of apps that work on all devices.

The other killer is the price. Being able to purchase a new computer with 4 gigs of Ram and 32 gigs of HD for under $200 kind of defeats loading a small distro where most apps require downloading additional dependencies (if they run at all).

tronkel · #91 Post by **tronkel** » Fri 04 Oct 2013, 15:52

Puppy has never really been a cohesive community - because it didn't have to be cohesive. Barry was always there to override any lack of cohesiveness on the part of the community.

The situation that Puppy finds itself in now cannot surely be a surprise to anyone though. Any project where the leader is the de-facto sole developer and decision maker is in danger of disappearing if the leader is no longer there.

In the case of Barry, there exists no one who can realistically replace him. Only he can maintain the Woof scripts that lie at the centre of Puppy's build environment. Same is true of other scripts as well.

Any replacement for Barry would have to be someone who is as good at Bash scripting as he is. With this tool, Barry has used every trick in the Linux book - moreso than any other Linux distro - to come up with the implementations that makes Puppy so unique in the Linux firmament. Think Mutisession, frugal install, PPM system, Xorgwizard Puppy universal installer etc. - and then there are the patched kernels

Sure, the PC world is going downhill for various reasons - but this sector is not going to completely disappear any time soon.

In the shorter term, those who teach and support users with Linux are going to see a big hole that used to be occupied by Puppy. It's going to be missed.

A concentrated and very focussed effort is going to have to be made if we want our favourite Linux tool to continue to be available to us. Time to get your thinking caps on guys (and gals).

jpeps · #92 Post by **jpeps** » Fri 04 Oct 2013, 16:03

tronkel wrote:
In the case of Barry, there exists no one who can realistically replace him. Only he can maintain the Woof scripts that lie at the centre of Puppy's build environment. Same is true of other scripts as well.

Any replacement for Barry would have to be someone who is as good at Bash scripting as he is. With this tool, Barry has used every trick in the Linux book

The available tools for UI are quite limited, and have moved on. It's far more fun to develop on android and java because you can do so much more real time stuff....beside that fact that your code is going to run on everything. In Puppy, you quickly learn that different versions lack things like gtkdialog updates, or they use a different naming system..rendering a lot of errors.

Nathan F · #93 Post by **Nathan F** » Fri 04 Oct 2013, 16:27

Sure, the PC world is going downhill for various reasons - but this sector is not going to completely disappear any time soon.

I'm not sure I'd call it downhill. It's going through major change for sure. The devices are getting smaller and more power efficient, which is not downhill but is rather positive all around. I can well imagine Arm desktop PC's that cost a lot less, take up less room, and have capabilities that X86 can't hope to match and that make tablets and smartphones look like toys too.

The killer is instant access to a million apps and the end of having to compile. The most controversial issue on Puppy has always been the repository...how to handle dependencies (static vs dynamic apps), including apt-get, etc. The concept of woof becomes outdated with a single repository of apps that work on all devices.

That's not neccessarily "the" killer, but it's a factor. There is a growing number of developers who are questioning the wisdom of using shared libraries at all actually, especially in light of the drastically falling cost of storage. But there are a lot of headaches with dynamic loading that cause problems for newbies and advanced users alike.

A single platform is something that could (and has in the past) become a nightmare. While I admire Android I prefer mainstream Linux and BSD. I also see a lot of the "apps" on Google Play and whatnot as toys. Linux has a lot of great powerful applications. Many of them have no hope of running on Android due to the limitations imposed by the Bionic C library. It's locked down by design. Good for smartphones and tablets where the lockdown helps protect the average user from screwing their machine up. Bad for the growth of powerful computing tools. For anything beyond basic web surfing and communication Linux will probably always kick Androids ass.

And Java? Really? Where did that come from?

jpeps · #94 Post by **jpeps** » Fri 04 Oct 2013, 16:56

Nathan F wrote:For anything beyond basic web surfing and communication Linux will probably always kick Androids ass.

And Java? Really? Where did that come from?

Yeah, really. I've been using Java for some time with Puppy linux..they run on everything and quickly on all but ancient computers. (Java has gone through a lot of development in the last several years).

Android is based in Java. The user base for devices so far has been largely recreational, so there are many gaming apps, etc. The apps themselves are far more sophisticated than what's available for linux. There's also an ever expanding use of android devices for professional use, so the available software is already far more sophisticated than for linux...particularly Puppy linux. I'm guessing you don't have much experience with an android device, or you'd be blown away by what you can do. I currently use my smartphone for all my case management at the office, simply dictating in case notes, etc. I have a Bluetooth keyboard, but rarely use it anymore.

Speed: Bionic is designed for CPUs at relatively low clock frequencies.
Bionic lacks many features found in full libc implementations, such as wide character and C++ exception handling support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bionic_%28software%29

zigbert · #95 Post by **zigbert** » Fri 04 Oct 2013, 20:55

Hello, I am zigbert.
I have contributed some code-lines to Puppy.
A rather simple solution for Puppy/Woof's future could be:

* Contributors could maintain their own code in the repo/woof (like my pBurn).
* Contributors have access to a woof-transit-area. Updates could be uploaded here. If accepted/tested by (ie.) 2 other contributors, the code goes into woof.

jpeps · #96 Post by **jpeps** » Fri 04 Oct 2013, 21:23

zigbert wrote:Hello, I am zigbert.
I have contributed some code-lines to Puppy.
A rather simple solution for the woof's future could be:

* Contributors could maintain their own code in woof (like my pBurn), it would always be up-to-date. We could also set up maintainers for compiling external packages.
* Contributors have access to a woof-transit-area. Updates could be uploaded here. If accepted/tested by (ie.) 2 other contributors, the code goes into woof.

I think you have to be in the political elite to make it to woof. Meanwhile, it's difficult to test on a lot of different distros with differing naming conventions, versions, etc.

BTW/ I haven't used CD's in almost a decade

raffy · #97 Post by **raffy** » Sat 05 Oct 2013, 00:13

I guess "Barry Kauler" in the context of Puppy Linux means "having both skill and time" to build a distro. A good current example of devs who can do this are Kirk and James for Fatdog64, Micko for Slacko and Prit and Runt for Macpup. Nathan F has done this for Grafpup, and Jemimah for Puppeee and Saluki.

Whether one or a few of them can survive the available time factor is something that can be known only later. James appears to have quite a momentum.

There are always users who would prefer non-commercial builds of Linux, and would support devs who are building such (at least in building and testing, financial support will be a plus).

Some devs would use their own build system while others would use Woof. Those who choose to continue with Woof will be following Barry's path - this is an easy path to follow, merely continuing what Barry has been doing. Zigbert seems to know his way in this path. I guess that the Puppy coming out of this build system will be the "community version".

With many free resources available for development, we should simply let developers be and not worry about forming rules or committees around them. Let them build their unique creation and (EDIT: we) offer support through testing and donating.

Nathan F · #98 Post by **Nathan F** » Sat 05 Oct 2013, 01:02

Grafpup took up way too much of my time. It cut into my already failing marriage and the time I should have been spending on my kids. Personally, not willing to go to that place again (maintaining an entire distro that is). I've re-set my priorities in the intervening years.

If I saw a concerted effort to maintain Woof I might contribute, however.

jpeps · #99 Post by **jpeps** » Sat 05 Oct 2013, 04:26

Nathan F wrote:Grafpup took up way too much of my time.

Yeah..It's a creative process, and it has to take over your life. I think
raffy summed it up beautifully:

raffy wrote: With many free resources available for development, we should simply let developers be and not worry about forming rules or committees around them. Let them build their unique creation and (EDIT: we) offer support through testing and donating.

+1

Lobster · #100 Post by **Lobster** » Sat 05 Oct 2013, 08:26

Hi guys,

I read all your posts with interest. I am using voice recognition to type this post. Very easy to do and works well. I am not using the mouse. I use Puppy Linux a little but not that much at the moment. I am using a tablet, which originally was used to help with the Puppy doacracy.
I have learned a lot using a tablet. For example I have a bluetooth keyboard that extends functionality and many fine apps.

Anyway . . .

Puppy continues by developers doing, supporters and infrastructure builders, documenters, CMS, question answering, testing, Wiki building and so on.

Barry did and does. Long live doacracy. That is the community. Those are the resourceful resources.

Who is in charge of the doacracy? Those that do.

Anyway just dropped by to say hi.

Incidentally we all do great. Puppy will do just fine. Woof. Woof.

(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Barry Kauler announces his retirement from Puppy

I'm hanging on too...

skill and time