Group major run-times (java, Python, etc.) in separate sfs?

Using applications, configuring, problems
Message
Author
musher0
Posts: 14629
Joined: Mon 05 Jan 2009, 00:54
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

Group major run-times (java, Python, etc.) in separate sfs?

#1 Post by musher0 »

Hello!

How useful would it be to group the latest run-time versions for perl,
python, java jre, and qt, and perhaps a few other important programming
languages in a single sfs, separate from the devx file?

In this context, perl and python could even be transferred from the devx
file to this separate programming languages sfs, thus making the devx
lighter.

Those languages would be all in one place, and the user would not have to
look all over the place to download them when (s)he needs to run an
application written in language x.

Has something like this ever been attempted for Puppy? On another distro?
Do you think it's a practical idea?

Since I'm a power user and not a specialist in any of the above languages,
I thought I'd ask for expert advice about the pros and cons, the feasability
and the usefulness of such a project.

Thanks in advance for any input and best regards.

musher0
Last edited by musher0 on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)

musher0
Posts: 14629
Joined: Mon 05 Jan 2009, 00:54
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

#2 Post by musher0 »

Hello!

I'm reporting success with this procedure on sulu-5.2.8.6, as follows:
* the zs001025.sfs file now contains, in addition to the initial drivers,
__java_jre1.7.0_45 and the qt-4.8.1 libraries;
* in lupu_devx_528-4.sfs, python-2.6 has been replaced with v. 3.3.2.

I prepared the substitute files in the Puppy it was intended for, but I had
to over-write the files in the sulu folder from another Puppy. Beforehand,
I also un-hooked the respective sfs's in the boot manager.

The Puppy boot process took a couple of seconds longer, but the changes
were not noticed. I tested a few java and Qt programs , and everything is
working fine.

BFN.

musher0
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)

Atle
Posts: 596
Joined: Wed 19 Nov 2008, 12:38
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

#3 Post by Atle »

I think your one to something good here. I do not understand a thing about coding my self, but I understand the need for these tools to develop.

Maybe Bacon could be something here? (taking a risk on a issue i dont know s*** about)

User avatar
mavrothal
Posts: 3096
Joined: Mon 24 Aug 2009, 18:23

#4 Post by mavrothal »

musher0 wrote:python-2.6 has been replaced with v. 3.3.2.
I believe that python is not backward compatible (a la gtk).
You may want to add it instead of replacing it.
== [url=http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html]Here is how to solve your[/url] [url=https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html]Linux problems fast[/url] ==

User avatar
L18L
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sat 19 Jun 2010, 18:56
Location: www.eussenheim.de/

Group major run-times (Perl, Python etc) in a separate sfs?

#5 Post by L18L »

Atle wrote:...Maybe Bacon could be something here?
BaCon (one of the recommended official languages) produces executables which do not need any of those run-times. :wink:

Atle
Posts: 596
Joined: Wed 19 Nov 2008, 12:38
Location: Oslo, Norway
Contact:

#6 Post by Atle »

What other are recommended languages that can be added?

And thanks for not pointing out my ignorance in a hard manner :oops:

User avatar
L18L
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sat 19 Jun 2010, 18:56
Location: www.eussenheim.de/

#7 Post by L18L »

Atle wrote:What other are recommended languages that can be added?
Recommended languages can be compiled to executables.
There is nothing to add to the devx and the executable can be run without devx.
http://puppylinux.com/development/compileapps.htm
http://puppylinux.com/howto/programming.htm :)

amigo
Posts: 2629
Joined: Mon 02 Apr 2007, 06:52

#8 Post by amigo »

Bad idea -let each one be in its' own. I use perl and python occasionally, but never qt nor java, etc.

Anything that needs such stuff should indicate that in some sort of requires=?? facility so the package manager can handle that. Or how about doing like Slackware and just include everything in a 'full' installation -then when someone has trouble because of something missing you simply scold them "You didn't do a full installation!"

musher0
Posts: 14629
Joined: Mon 05 Jan 2009, 00:54
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

#9 Post by musher0 »

mavrothal wrote:
musher0 wrote:python-2.6 has been replaced with v. 3.3.2.
I believe that python is not backward compatible (a la gtk).
You may want to add it instead of replacing it.
Thanks for the education :), rerwin. Numerous python sites confirm this.
Would an update to Python to 2.7.5 be a safer alternative?

Or should v. 2.6 be left as is in the present devx, and a separate "big
serpents" sfs be made available containing versions 2.7.5 and 3.3.2?
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)

musher0
Posts: 14629
Joined: Mon 05 Jan 2009, 00:54
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

#10 Post by musher0 »

L18L wrote:
Atle wrote:What other are recommended languages that can be added?
Recommended languages can be compiled to executables.
There is nothing to add to the devx and the executable can be run without devx.
http://puppylinux.com/development/compileapps.htm
http://puppylinux.com/howto/programming.htm :)
Hello, L18L.

BK's well-researched suggestions are all fine and good. BaCon seems like
a good idea, but truth be told, what important and/or useful Vale/Genie
programs can a Puppy user use to his benefit? I mean: not next year,
but today! :) Kindly name a few!? :twisted:

Best regards.

musher0
Last edited by musher0 on Tue 22 Oct 2013, 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)

musher0
Posts: 14629
Joined: Mon 05 Jan 2009, 00:54
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

#11 Post by musher0 »

amigo wrote:Bad idea -let each one be in its' own. I use perl and python occasionally, but never qt nor java, etc.

Anything that needs such stuff should indicate that in some sort of requires=?? facility so the package manager can handle that. Or how about doing like Slackware and just include everything in a 'full' installation -then when someone has trouble because of something missing you simply scold them "You didn't do a full installation!"
Hello, amigo.

So the Slackware people have a twisted sense of humor, eh! :twisted:
I always thought they were rather stern. :)

On a serious note:
I agree that each user should be somewhat on his/her own to fulfill his/her
needs. However, in my mind anyway, inclusion by default of Qt and java
libraries can help bypass the glibc 2.11 limitation that exists in many
not-so-old Puppies.

Here's an example. (All examples are limited in some way or other, but still.)

Lots of people like to have some sort of inventory of this or that, so let's
pretend that a user wants to create collections using Puppy.

(S)he cannot run Tellico in Puppy because Puppy lacks not only the
required libraries, but its glibc is too low to support the libraries.

On the other hand, Datacrow will run if the user installs a recent java-jre.

Now, we should remember that both programs are majors in the field.

What do you think the user's reaction will be?

a - chuck Puppy and install a major distro, such as ubuntu, fedora, etc.,
that has all the libraries, in order to use Tellico?

b - stay with Puppy and install java and Datacrow?

If a Puppy-ready java package is readily available, I believe that the user
will continue with Puppy. That's my reasoning behind making java and qt
run-times more easily available.

BFN.

musher0
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)

User avatar
L18L
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sat 19 Jun 2010, 18:56
Location: www.eussenheim.de/

#12 Post by L18L »

musher0 wrote:... what important and/or useful Vale/Genie
programs can a Puppy user use to his benefit? I mean: not next year,
but today! :) Kindly name a few!? :twisted:
The question was
which run-times could be needed
and not
name some "Vale/Genie" programs

If a developer would code a program using Vale/Genie then this would result in an executable file that does not need any run-time package.
In other words : there is no Vale/Genie user program, just a development program for the developer.

User avatar
L18L
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sat 19 Jun 2010, 18:56
Location: www.eussenheim.de/

java

#13 Post by L18L »

musher0 wrote:If a Puppy-ready java package is readily available, I believe that the user
will continue with Puppy.
...always available at http://www.java.com/fr/
or at http://www.java.com/es/
or at http://www.java.com/en/
...
There is nothing puppy specific with java.

musher0
Posts: 14629
Joined: Mon 05 Jan 2009, 00:54
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

Re: java

#14 Post by musher0 »

L18L wrote:
musher0 wrote:If a Puppy-ready java package is readily available, I believe that the user
will continue with Puppy.
...always available at http://www.java.com/fr/
or at http://www.java.com/es/
or at http://www.java.com/en/
...
There is nothing puppy specific with java.
No comment. We're really not on the same wave-length.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)

joaomcteixeira
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon 08 Jul 2013, 14:01
Location: Portugal

#15 Post by joaomcteixeira »

Quickpet brings already JAVA to the easy install and also Qt (tough I never tried to install those from Quickpet)

Quickpet Raring 3.7

musher0
Posts: 14629
Joined: Mon 05 Jan 2009, 00:54
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

#16 Post by musher0 »

joaomcteixeira wrote:Quickpet brings already JAVA to the easy install and also Qt (tough I never tried to install those from Quickpet)

http://ns1.murga-projects.com/puppy/vie ... 27dbeab251
Hello, joaomcteixeira.

Indeed, but the official limit for adding sfs's is 6. You hook up java, Qt and
the devx file, and there go 3 sfs spaces. If java and Qt were in the zs file,
alongside the drivers, only one space is taken in the list of possible sfs,
the one for the devx -- for the same functionality. So you still have five
"sfs hook-ups" left.

Another advantage is that the user wouldn't have to download anything
extra.

If space on the ISO file is a concern, we could try replacing java (+/- 135
Mb) with IcedTea (+/- 25Mo).

Best regards.

musher0
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)

joaomcteixeira
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon 08 Jul 2013, 14:01
Location: Portugal

#17 Post by joaomcteixeira »

Oh!
I see, I didn't know that there was a limit to the sfs files that could be loaded. Indeed, quickpet installs the software through sfs files, where sometimes it seems to me not necessary (again, I am not a programmer, just an user, i might be saying something really wrong :P ).

I use to install java directly from the web site, and extracting it to /usr/java and than performing to symlink to usr/bin.

maybe a script on the starting Menu that could perform this operation would be enough. Do you think this could be feasible?

Best wishes,

musher0
Posts: 14629
Joined: Mon 05 Jan 2009, 00:54
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

#18 Post by musher0 »

Hello, joaomcteixeira.

Way back when, member jrb had a Puppy 4.2 that could load more than 6
sfs's, and currently German member RSH has altered his LazyPup to do the
same. But it is a documented fact that loading too many sfs's in your Puppy
slows it down.

So, in regular Puppies, you have to use SFS-Combiner or a similar utility to
merge sfs's in order not to go over the limit of 6.

As to downloading and installing java in Puppy through a script, I think I
remember who produced a similar script! ;) I suppose I could eventually
offer a wrapper for it and a menu entry.

BFN.

musher0
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)

joaomcteixeira
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon 08 Jul 2013, 14:01
Location: Portugal

#19 Post by joaomcteixeira »

Hello musher0,

I see, nice to keep learning :P

eh eh, I can imagine who also did such script :wink: I guess I will look forward to see it in the next puppy release :P 8)

all the best,
joao

User avatar
sunburnt
Posts: 5090
Joined: Wed 08 Jun 2005, 23:11
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

#20 Post by sunburnt »

So, in regular Puppies, you have to use SFS-Combiner or a similar utility to
merge sfs's in order not to go over the limit of 6.
Actually it`s mostly like "how fast is your cpu", and also "how much ram".
I think the ram is not quite as important as the cpu speed. But both are related of course.

# It`s a shame that Barry limited the boot manager to 6, this is very low for most PCs.
It should assess the cpu speed/power. Or no limit? Or have a user setting to control it.
Really a new "boot + run" SFS manager is needed that works with load_sfs.

seaside`s app.: Click an SFS to run, but for groups of apps it would need a popup menu.


# But in regards to this, I`ve always suggested sfs files of groups of like apps be made.
Groups of: Programming Languages, Language run-times, web apps., Games, Utilities, etc.

### And a speedier item... Make Squash files of apps. that don`t need the union to work.

### This solves the "don`t run too many" warning, doesn`t it?

# Q: . Why are app. builders so resistant to this type of package?
.

Post Reply