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can savefile.2fs be converted to savefile.sfs ?
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 1615
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 09:40    Post subject:  

I'm Just trying to spare you some troubles.
Do not "waste your time" creating sfs from save file in puppy.
You will get many files that should not be included inside.
As a result you will be able to use this sfs only on the same computer it is created on.
Puppy has very good remastering script and it will include all new installed programs. It will also boot on any other computer without problems.
Here you can find simpler and quicker way to make exact copy of your save file and include it in the main puppy sfs:
http://puppylinux.info/topic/remastering-cd

Cheers

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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 7212

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 10:39    Post subject:  

hey this is fun...

ok
Quote:
I've read somewhere that another poster boots that sfs file in the form of a z drive but that doen't work for me.

Quote:
Where on earth should I include that line in that massive file?

that one line is from the standard 4.12 init to show that zdrv is loaded if present and to give a clue as to why it might not have worked as expected (wrong layer order)....I believe at this point the idea was to test a save sfs without hacking anything or needing a save file. The other technique would be to make a dummy empty save file to satisfy modern puppies sfs loading requirements.

Quote:
I'm Just trying to spare you some troubles.
Do not "waste your time" creating sfs from save file in puppy.

thats ok...you seem to be unaware of where this is heading...indeed Bill's purpose is slightly unknown to me (he might want a simple way to have a custom install for example) I just happen to use a similar technique in a certain useful way....believe me there are some stunning wastes of time going on around here and this is not one of them. Very Happy

mike
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nic007

Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 424

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 11:28    Post subject:  

mikeb wrote:
hey this is fun...

ok
Quote:
I've read somewhere that another poster boots that sfs file in the form of a z drive but that doen't work for me.

Quote:
Where on earth should I include that line in that massive file?

that one line is from the standard 4.12 init to show that zdrv is loaded if present and to give a clue as to why it might not have worked as expected (wrong layer order)....I believe at this point the idea was to test a save sfs without hacking anything or needing a save file. The other technique would be to make a dummy empty save file to satisfy modern puppies sfs loading requirements.

Quote:
I'm Just trying to spare you some troubles.
Do not "waste your time" creating sfs from save file in puppy.

thats ok...you seem to be unaware of where this is heading...indeed Bill's purpose is slightly unknown to me (he might want a simple way to have a custom install for example) I just happen to use a similar technique in a certain useful way....believe me there are some stunning wastes of time going on around here and this is not one of them. Very Happy

mike


I think we are all confused now. The zdrv story should never have come up really (my fault). I knew devx and zdrv could be loaded automatically so the question was whether the same could be achieved with any sfs file for that matter (without using a save file with your config of course). So I just renamed the sfs file to zdrv/devxx whatever to see if it would load and obviously it didn't work. My purpose for the sfs file would be to load my configuration like I had on the save file. The slight benefit would be a smaller file and then of course no save file although that option may still be open at shutdown. So, if this can be achieved, I would like to know how to mount the sfs file on boot-up for this purpose.
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 1615
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 11:48    Post subject:  

mikeb wrote:
Quote:
I'm Just trying to spare you some troubles.
Do not "waste your time" creating sfs from save file in puppy.

thats ok...you seem to be unaware of where this is heading...indeed Bill's purpose is slightly unknown to me (he might want a simple way to have a custom install for example) I just happen to use a similar technique in a certain useful way....believe me there are some stunning wastes of time going on around here and this is not one of them. Very Happy
mike

I know what you mean, Mike Smile
"Waste on time" - put in quotes.
Debian live uses the same squash file technique.
Before making sfs from save file it is better to clean this save file first.
For example .wh..wh.orph and .wh..wh.plnk folders, .wh..wh.aufs file are not needed to be inside. You can find many of those empty .wh files in a save file.
.XLOADED will cause slight boot error even on the same computer.
resolv.conf and network interfaces file will include your internet settings which will cause troubles using this sfs on another computer. Same goes for the sound device files.
Browsers cache and temp files will be included and increase the size.
There are many others. Cleaning all of them manual before creating sfs file is not easy and can cause troubles later.
Puppy remaster script will save all these troubles.

If the idea is testing purpose - very good. But let the people be aware what might (and will) go wrong while converting save file to sfs.

Cheers, Toni
nic007 wrote:

My purpose for the sfs file would be to load my configuration like I had on the save file. The slight benefit would be a smaller file and then of course no save file although that option may still be open at shutdown. So, if this can be achieved, I would like to know how to mount the sfs file on boot-up for this purpose.


Nic007, check out the link in my previous post. It will merge the original file with your save file settings. It is exactly what you need.

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nic007

Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 424

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 12:07    Post subject:  

saintless wrote:
mikeb wrote:
Quote:
I'm Just trying to spare you some troubles.
Do not "waste your time" creating sfs from save file in puppy.

thats ok...you seem to be unaware of where this is heading...indeed Bill's purpose is slightly unknown to me (he might want a simple way to have a custom install for example) I just happen to use a similar technique in a certain useful way....believe me there are some stunning wastes of time going on around here and this is not one of them. Very Happy
mike

I know what you mean, Mike Smile
"Waste on time" - put in quotes.
Debian live uses the same squash file technique.
Before making sfs from save file it is better to clean this save file first.
For example .wh..wh.orph and .wh..wh.plnk folders, .wh..wh.aufs file are not needed to be inside. You can find many of those empty .wh files in a save file.
.XLOADED will cause slight boot error even on the same computer.
resolv.conf and network interfaces file will include your internet settings which will cause troubles using this sfs on another computer. Same goes for the sound device files.
Browsers cache and temp files will be included and increase the size.
There are many others. Cleaning all of them manual before creating sfs file is not easy and can cause troubles later.
Puppy remaster script will save all these troubles.

If the idea is testing purpose - very good. But let the people be aware what might (and will) go wrong while converting save file to sfs.

Cheers, Toni
nic007 wrote:

My purpose for the sfs file would be to load my configuration like I had on the save file. The slight benefit would be a smaller file and then of course no save file although that option may still be open at shutdown. So, if this can be achieved, I would like to know how to mount the sfs file on boot-up for this purpose.


Nic007, check out the link in my previous post. It will merge the original file with your save file settings. It is exactly what you need.

Well not quite. I have made many re-masters before but some things are just not saved, eg. Installations of applications in wine and the configuration for those installations in wine. One can slightly overcome this by placing your applications that one would like to use in temp/root and that will be included however the configuration for those files from within wine can not be saved (well, I have never been able to).
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 7212

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 12:10    Post subject:  

Bill started this thread...where is he??

We started with how to make a sfs from a save file.... if you read it you will see the quick dirty way given with the suggestion to do it with a non running save to avoid xloaded crap and so on . I also mentioned excluding certain folders as a refinement.

Bills and nic007 reasons are probably slightly different for experimenting with this.

I use sfs as the save mechanism and implemented it originally on puppy 2 and later ported it to later versions. The final result includes such refinements you mention though actually the biggest challenge was working it into puppies boot scripts. For Bill and nic007 that full implementation is probably is not needed...which brings me to
nic007 ....
I do not see any other way of loading extra sfs to puppy 4 apart from the zdrv idea or dummy save so I guess a little hacking is needed. There is still the problem of layer order too (I reversed it in my case so the main pup sfs is at the bottom). I also scrapped the puppy 4 init as being too complicated/quirk prone (i found 4 hairy bugs in it and posted solutions when it first appeared) and used a streamlined puppy 2 one instead....but for a simple fixed sfs config file the original script should be tweakable.

As a proof of concept we are treading one step at a time here.
Also the op(s) probably want to keep a pristine puppy and have custom sfs for each machine they have. Another advantage would be the possibility of a save loading to ram in some manner which I do with my implementation with the benefit of being able to remove the flash drive or spin down disks.

These answers get longer...the confusion grows...

mike
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 7212

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 12:12    Post subject:  

Ok simultaneous posts... I would have thought .wine folder saving would keep all yer configs too..odd.

Actually for a while I symlinked out the .wine folder to an ext3 partition so it could be used by multiple distros plus saving root space.

mike
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nic007

Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 424

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 12:31    Post subject:  

mikeb wrote:
Ok simultaneous posts... I would have thought .wine folder saving would keep all yer configs too..odd.

Actually for a while I symlinked out the .wine folder to an ext3 partition so it could be used by multiple distros plus saving root space.

mike


The re-mastering including wine installations on save files remains a bit of a mystery. The re-master program does not include installed wine programs and their configs. I've heard a rumour that the size of things found in .wine may be a problem (don't know if it's true or that wine is just seen as some sort of alien that does not really belong). As for the sfs config idea...I think I'm going to step away from that potential minefield. And yes, I normally link to windows programmes on another partition but things like speech engines need to be installed in wine to make the programmes work.
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 206

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 13:44    Post subject: wine  

It is kind of related, but this is how I cloned a wine installation into an sfs file.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=84557
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 7212

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 14:03    Post subject:  

Ok .wine would include configs so adding it to /tmp/root should work as is.... size permitting. I do find the remaster script can mess up if a lot of files are added...come across that problem over several years and never found a satisfactory reason why but this might be a possible reason ie some of your files are getting lost and they happen to be in .wine.

The link is not to have apps outside of the save...its to symlink the .wine config folder...all installed programs and their configs (the registry) will be in there..... just like when its done with mozilla.

As for a potential minefield .... a doubting thomas or a system working for 3 years with no hiccups which is as good as any save file I have come across and better than the normal puppy flash save mode 13 which I removed. The only minefield is puppy's init script... that's why I scrapped it and used the older version.....I would not wish trying to modify that on anyone. I also added the same technique to slax as a save option...only modification I ever made to it but on there I used tar as it happens to have the full version in its initrd but squash would be fine too.

But where is Bill?...he may be lost.... send out a search party. Very Happy

Genreal comment...Since a save sfs is made at shutdown the usually puppy cleanups still apply , plus selective folder additions , plus X is not running.

mike

ps my current 415 save sfs is 9MB at the moment...uncompressed...
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RSH


Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 2036
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 17:01    Post subject:  

Hi.

Quote:
can savefile.2fs be converted to savefile.sfs ?

Hm,

why trying to convert a save file.[2,3,4]fs to SFS?

Why not creating the SFS directly from within the running OS right after all settings are made?

Everything needed is already in /initrd/pup_rw.

Ok, let's be a little theoretical...

- having a GUI with back end scripts that will create two different SFS
- one would be the $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_config.sfs
- the other one would be the $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_data.sfs

- $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_config.sfs would be created once and could not be re-created, if already loaded
- $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_data.sfs could be created (so to say, saved) manually or even automatically at shutdown

- $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_config.sfs would sort out unnecessary files automatically by list files
- these list files would be needed to be edited by the user starting from a 'preset' (nothing else)

- these list files would be...
- - search_dirs
- - search_exclude_dirs
- - search_exclude_files
- - search_include_files

- $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_data.sfs would have a right-click option to add and/or remove files from the $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_data.sfs when re-saving it
- these files would be also saved to a simple list
- this list would be
- - data_sfs_files_list

- two back end scripts would build the two SFS files
- another two back end scripts would mount the SFS files, copying contents into the running system and unmount again the SFS files at boot up

- $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_config.sfs should be included before the X desktop is running (could be executed in /usr/bin/xwin)
- $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_data.sfs could be included from a script in /root/Startup (maybe having an option to choose loading it)

By the use of $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_ the OS will only grab its related SFS files. Another extension could be used to have different $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_config.sfs files for the use on different computers using the same OS from USB flash for example. But this would need to edit the initrd.gz, to be able to send the name of the $DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX_config_$NewExtension.sfs to the booting OS.

Ok.

Let's have a short break.

I need to make a...

...

...

...

DANCE!

(Dancing around and dancing around...)

He, he... Laughing

The above theoretical description is already 'alive' and running and also used in my private version/s of LazY Puppy (Lucid, Precise and Studio 1337 based) !!!

Whooosshhhhh...

But I'm sorry to say: NO, I don't want to publish and develop this solution!

So, here is the big question?

Anyone willing to develop and publish this PET package?

If so, let me know and I will send you the PET package.

But, it's strongly needed, that you will declare (by publishing/posting it here) to do it and to be responsible for it.

I will give advice for a quick start, but I will not send this for anyone others just private use!

Cheers,

RSH

Edit:

My Config SFS for my LazY Precise is 6802 K!

Edit: it is now 4392 K - uncompressed!

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Last edited by RSH on Mon 04 Nov 2013, 08:20; edited 1 time in total
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 17:40    Post subject:  

Mikeb joins in with the dance.....

Hi RSH

well I just have the sfs made every shutdown and uses the pup_rw contents....or not if the user chooses not too....it then gets loaded to ram at startup. If the original save is renamed it would become a permenant config sfs ...a fall back default setup effectively.
This also does give a poor mans remaster option....add software...make save......rename save again....but i tend to just use sfs for any additional software anyway and occasionally remaser the core. Since my wrappers are not restricted conventional save files are not needed, many sfs can load and life is like one big pfix=ram session but with saved settings and data. But I am preaching to the converted Smile

I believe the original 'save to sfs' was just to see how it behaved.

Small bullet proof saves (easy to back up too) with built in option to dump a session such as after compiling and everything can truly load to ram...its more puppy than puppy Very Happy .... and no dirty flags...oh and a half second first shutdown....

sounds craps doesn't it...

lets jiggle it

mike
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RSH


Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 2036
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 18:37    Post subject:  

Hi, mikeb.

Quote:
Hi RSH

well I just have the sfs made every shutdown and uses the pup_rw contents....or not if the user chooses not too....

Yeah, this was my first go. But then it was logically to me, to build the config SFS just once and to disable option to create one, if already loaded.

Quote:
it then gets loaded to ram at startup. If the original save is renamed it would become a permenant config sfs ...a fall back default setup effectively.
This also does give a poor mans remaster option....add software...make save......rename save again

Anything else, like adding software or having files inside the OS, is done by the data SFS, which is my poor mans remaster option. Since I'm still working on the SFS P.L.U.S. -especially on the RunScript Builder/Creator- I have added the directory of the RunScripts to the list of data SFS files.

SFS P.L.U.S. format means, the RunScript will load any dependent SFS automatically before the application of the main (to load) SFS is executed (no file system convert is done)

When saving the data SFS at shutdown or manually, it is backed up automatically. The current date is included into its name so, I'll get at least one backup per day when saving the data SFS.

And so, I do also just occasionally remaser the core, which is currently 130 MB (the ISO, the SFS is 126 MB). Though it offers me access to and the use of 546 applications, stored in 384 SFS modules.

No save file and online right after the plugged in USB flash modem is recognized by the OS (just need to connect via PGPRS connect then)

Quote:
but i tend to just use sfs for any additional software anyway

Since I want to have German menu entries for the applications, I do edit each and every .desktop file from a PET, DEB, SFS or whatever. When ready I create a new PET package by right-click and from this PET package I do create the SFS, which then is converted to the SFS P.L.U.S. format and RunScript is created as well. So, when shutting down and saving the data SFS, all new RunScripts are available at next boot (without the need of a remaster).

Application added! Very Happy Laughing

Quote:
life is like one big pfix=ram session but with saved settings and data

Really, think about it: isn't it for real???

I mean, our whole life is modular. We live in modules, usually move by modules (a few exceptions are there), we are wearing modules, our daily work and activities is modular and also divided in a modular way. It leads directly to a modular use of Operating Systems and applications.

By the way: the whole computer is modular (at least the desktop PC, which I do prefer).

Quote:
I believe the original 'save to sfs' was just to see how it behaved.

Yes, I think this as well and have had read such several times somewhere on the forum.

Quote:
sounds craps doesn't it

I think, everything what works for those who are using it, sounds really really good! Wink Smile

RSH

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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 20:08    Post subject:  

Auto dependancy sfs loading...sounds like a good idea. I try to include libs but such as qt4 and python come as a separate bundle because of their size. But on the whole the family have no trouble adding a game that they fancy.

Yes modularity.... each machine has a different set loaded as default with the rest on tap for occasional use. Especially for such as a netbook where everything loads to ram so the hard drive can spin down so there is a need to avoid loading anything that is not required. For a flash stick less mods = faster boot etc.

Puppy cores hang around the 100MB mark...slax can be pared down even further since the x server, window manager , and X core apps are all separate so for say a server only the 35MB core is needed. (separate kernel modules sfs is feasible too I just never bothered)

Another point is sfs archives are quite robust compared to thousands of files floating around a hard drive...especially important with such as linux with no built in system repair facilities.
Another side point is loading one contiguous file at boot is much kinder to a hard drive than the head flying around picking up thousands of individual files... the noise they make booting windows gives a clue to that one. Of course a fully in ram system only needs a hard drive occasionally....less wear and tear and usage = better reliability.

My main 'sfs for a save' was to complete the floating in ram picture to maximise the benefits and large ram is the default on all except the oldest of machines so why not use it. (this machine has 512mb plus 512 swap and me pups seem to be happy with that) Others like the idea of a system that vanishes at shutdown for that extra security...the puppy multisession save method was something I used for a while and it did have some benefits that inspired the sfs approach. Being able to remove a usb boot stick is another.

anyway I think I am waffling now

mike
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bill

Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 474

PostPosted: Mon 28 Oct 2013, 23:43    Post subject: can savefile.2fs be converted to savefile.sfs ?  

Apologies all,I wasn't trying to be cloak and dagger about my intentions when I posted this question.which I have learned much from the help I have received..thanks to all.OK ,a couple of years ago a poster(unknown) posted a tutorial about a "Save on demand only" modification which I managed to implement and found it way cool.I have been running it ever since.The beauty of it ,is that I could load all kinds of .pets ,sfs or anything I wanted to try.If I found them to be useful,I could hit the "Save" radio button and it would "Save",else,if I didn't ,I would simply "Shutdown" and all this garbage would be forgotten.What
my intentions were ,was to be able to make a Custom.iso for other folks ,who are less initiated,like myself,to be able to have a go.So far I have failed. Crying or Very sad
You can audit this mod at the posted link.cheers


http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=62110&start=33
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