The 4.x equivalent of 2.14x

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Iguleder · #1 Post by **Iguleder** » Sun 30 May 2010, 10:29

I have a very very good idea: let's make a 4.x CE release: what ttuxxx did with 2.14x can be done with 4.x.

I find 4.x very stable and fast on my old PC ... maybe we can make it even better together.

I did many Puppy 4.x snapshots since the 4.3.1 release and they seem to work very very well (http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 902#422902), they're stable and solid just like 4.3.1.

Currently I'm working on a master-stripping script for Woof, that should trim Puppy a little bit more without any loss. I'll try to generate a fresh 4.x snapshot in the next week maybe, with the stripping thing. I'll
try.

If anyone is interested in this, I volunteer to participate in such an initiative.

EDIT: my stripping script reduced the size of the main SFS by about 8 MB, uncompressed. Good

#2 Post by **ttuuxxx** » Sun 30 May 2010, 11:38

The thing that makes 2.14X unique is that I customized most of the scripts, Used some series 5 scripts, added some hacked gnome libs like orbit, gconf, used a better glibC from series 3 that is way stabler than any series 4, just compare FF3 on series 4 vs 2.14X, its way snappier, and finally you'll have to update about 75% of the backend to latest version without breaking the devx or the Os itself, sure you can try to do it, but trust me its not easy at all. Best of luck, and oh ya you'll need to add gtk1 and tcl/tk, plus a few new apps like pup-shots, Thunar, Xfburn, BMP with ladspa etc, most of the apps I already compiled on series 4 in the forums software section.
just remember it took over 240 forum pages and about 18 months work to get it where it is. Or a bit over a min 8500hrs time that I donated to it.
you could easily make it look like it, but it will take a lot to make it run like it, oh plus 4 series takes about 600mb more free memory live.
Plus 4 series doesn't have the same retro kernel.
ttuuxxx

greengeek · #3 Post by **greengeek** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 09:08

Is a retro kernel a necessity? Since 4.3.1 ran so well on many of the older machines I would like to know if it would be possible to do as Iguleder was suggesting way back then and strip 431 to it's bones and add just enough new stuff to make it run a better browser.

(I think Darry is doing something similar...)

Theres still plenty of older hardware around - and a renewed understanding that any OS that runs well on older gear can't be carrying too much of the fat that lets people/corporates run spyware etc...

#4 Post by **ttuuxxx** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 09:27

Yes its possible, You would need a new backend Glib,GTK, pango, png, jpg etc plus a new GlibC, Plus If you included a new browser it would add around 40MB, really there isn't much bloat in the 4 series.
I did it all to 2.14X, well over 1000 of hours worth to make that version, but a basic backend and glibC and a updated devx maybe 30Hrs or less.. hmmm probably a updated video player also, newer formats are used these days.
Was it worth it, hell yes, would I do it again, ummmmmI don't have that much free time.
Jeff

runtt21 · #5 Post by **runtt21** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 11:23

TTTTTTTUUUUUUUUUUXXXXXXXXXXXXX !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUDE !!! Good to see ya !!!!

mikeb · #6 Post by **mikeb** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 11:25

Hi ttuuxxx.....

Hm I have quite a cosy 4.15 I call it... very slax like..smpkernel, no need for retro version... not that anyone cares...lol

Yes I was checking out packages on the original 4.12 and I found out just how much I had changed, updated or simply filled in the missing bits though I just got a stable gtk2 build to solve crashing problems rather than a version change and glibc remains as was.

One thing intrigues me... 'lets make a retro rebuild and turn it into a recent version'.... surely its retroness is supposed to be the attraction...small size, fast performance, no stupid dependancies or redundant libs from the big boys etc.

Now let rewrite the puppy wrappers to make it fast and work well and have sexy save/system configurations, and a decent desktop enviroment, build appse optimised for a small distro...now you are talking....much is to be gained by going down that path. But then it would not be puppy would it.... it would be funky.

mike

#7 Post by **ttuuxxx** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 12:26

Hey runtt21 man its nice to see that your still around

and mikeb I like your ideas

.
Yes its been awhile indeed!, I do miss being around here a lot, especially when I use puppy everyday of the week!!.

Hey mike puppy 4.0 could be a good starting point, It was stable,small and ground breaking.
ttuuxxx

Puppyt · #8 Post by **Puppyt** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 12:47

(Hey ttuuxx - +1 wot runtt21 said) iguleder - if it can be done, I am confident you'd make a fab team leader, and I'd love to see a rejuvenated 4x pupplet. Daz (darry1966) has been making some great stuff in that area (e.g., http://sourceforge.net/projects/dazsbar ... bc%202.10/), and this site announcement and repository for 431 (http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 912ef5886f) plus tuxtoo's homage to 412 here http://www.412collection.co.uk/ ... look I think a revamp would be very much appreciated by everyone, and I think there will always be a solid interest in Puppy4

#9 Post by **ttuuxxx** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 12:57

Ok Guys give me a couple of days to think about it

are we cool with puppy 4.0? Plus I would need script contributions, Ideas, which gtk,glib etc we should go with, I've been out of the loop for a 2 yrs and missed a lot of goings on etc. I just use 2.14X as a daily distro and have been really happy with it, it does its job well. I wouldn't mind another fail-safe distro:)
ttuuxxx

mikeb · #10 Post by **mikeb** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 13:51

it was for tuxtoo that I blew the dust of the original release and realised how much I had changed. I finally totally replaced the drive icons after previously dropping their cpu demands substantially.

but theres a whole lot more. The kernel change was a nice move too.

or why not build something on slax6 ...port over a few puppyisms and use a lighter desktop and...oh too late done it lol.

well have fun guys

mike

starhawk · #11 Post by **starhawk** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 16:29

IIRC 412 would quite possibly be a good choice. I can't really verify it (ally might be able to tho

) but I've heard that there were a lot of really tiny Puppies made out of 412 that work on all sorts of systems.

Also, a selfish interest. Something changed with the drivers for Crystal brand integrated/laptop ISA sound cards between 412 and 420. If I run 412-retro on my Dell Latitude CPi (it's got one of those cards, a 4237B model) I get sound. Basically anything newer (including pUPnGO stuff, which is based on P420) makes for One Mute Puppy (to be fair, tho, I've not run 412-regular on there yet, IIRC).

Just a thought.

greengeek · #12 Post by **greengeek** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 17:54

mikeb wrote:One thing intrigues me... 'lets make a retro rebuild and turn it into a recent version'.... surely its retroness is supposed to be the attraction...small size, fast performance, no stupid dependancies or redundant libs from the big boys etc.

I would certainly value an updated series 4 pup - there still seem to be a number of potential new puppians trying out old hardware (just because they've got it lying around and don't mind risking it for a trial...) and I think hindsight would enable a really useful and flexible series 4 to be built. I think it's abilities would surprise many who are used to the newer pups.

A new pup4 would make a nice 'core' that would run quick and lean on a large range of hardware, and maybe it could be structured so that any higher powered functions (eg heavyweight browser and word processor) would be plugged in as sfs addons that the user can use or discard at will.

mikeb · #13 Post by **mikeb** » Thu 23 Jan 2014, 18:22

I think it's abilities would surprise many who are used to the newer pups.

Well speed for one thing.
Thing is are you for stepping back to the lighter stuff or trying to make an old puppy do new tricks which in doing so will load it down with the same stuff that hampers the latest and greatest which get away with it as 4GB ram and quad cores make light work of such things?

I would not try and make the latest firefox or chrome work on it for example....why make a racehourse carry bricks?
The light and fluffy rebuilt media players are circa 2009.
My defination of updates is more to do with bug fixing and streamlining scripts and neat binaries and scripts that contribute to happiness. System improvements generally. The golden child of the long term stable. The real exceptions are kernel modules to support newer hardware ...no speed/size penalty there. Mine has newer alsa, video4linux and a sprinkling of wifi drivers.

Backporting does have its joys... I took the improved xorgwizard and used it on puppy 2 for example. The wifi wizard from 4 makes slax connect happily. Forward porting gets forgotten.... puppy 2 methods and experiment have ended up even in Lucid.
Compiling unuseable (too new) apps on it suddenly produces a working result...magic stuff.

When you look back whst you have bears little resemblence to the source it was made from yes is still of the same ilk. Actually I found the original 4.12 irritatingly annoying when I tried it recently..slow, clunky, JWM , unstable, no sfs loading, crying out to be fiddled with..fortunately I don't have to.

Lets do some river dancing

mike

mavrothal · #14 Post by **mavrothal** » Fri 24 Jan 2014, 05:56

ttuuxxx wrote:Yes its possible, You would need a new backend Glib,GTK, pango, png, jpg etc plus a new GlibC, Plus If you included a new browser it would add around 40MB,

I like the idea

However I was wondering if you change the backend (and maybe X) and update a bunch of apps, what would be left of 4.x?
What about taking T2 quirky6 backend and packages and provide an older kernel (and X?) and drivers instead?

cthisbear · #15 Post by **cthisbear** » Fri 24 Jan 2014, 06:33

" I did it all to 2.14X, well over 1000 of hours worth "

:::::::::::::

So! We can still be ungrateful and want more.

Wasn't one of the Japanese 4 series pups released last year updated.

Japanese Puppy 2012\pup_431JP2012

Browser was a pain.

Even in English it ran as Japanese.

Imagine that?

Rename >>> zip to >>>> .HTM

Chris.

Fossil · #16 Post by **Fossil** » Fri 24 Jan 2014, 10:47

Sadly, the 431J-P2012 Japanese browser was the off-putting 'feature'. If it had been capable of English script it would have been far more popular; it was a good concept. No, I didn't want to go down the road of loading SFS's simply to obtain an alternative browser.

What kernel is being proposed for the venture? Will it be the 4.3.1's? Rerwin also did a lot of work upgrading on this: "Simplified Puppy 4.3.1/4.3.2 Upgrade Center " http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 889#483889

starhawk · #17 Post by **starhawk** » Tue 04 Feb 2014, 21:56

A further thought -- there are a lot of low-spec machines out there, for cheap. If Pup4x can be made to run on them, modernize Pup4x (glibc at least, possibly a kernel update) so that it can use newer software... presto, cheap computers for the masses.

For the record: one super cheap source is eBay's selection of thin clients. (I recommend staying well away from Wyse, given recent experiences.)

A NeoWare CA19 is a fairly decent model. Right as I type this there is a seller on eBay offering them for $15 for one or $28 for a pair. Needs a power cable but it's just a standard 'mickey mouse' or 'three-leaf clover' style (depending on which side of the Atlantic you're on). Specs here, but despite being a little underpowered it's not that bad.

Replace the onboard flash disk (a Disk On Module or DOM) with a short 44pin IDE cable, CompactFlash->IDE adapter, and ~32gb CompactFlash card, and upgrade the RAM to a full gig -- and you've got a silent, ecologically- and economically-friendly computer that rocks. For the more adventurous, there's a footprint for a standard motherboard fan connector just waiting to be populated with that connector -- and then you can replace the fanless heatsink on the northbridge (under the heatsink in the middle of the motherboard) with one that has a fan, for better cooling. Makes a racket though.

Prices in us$, before shipping, currently on eBay (except for the CompactFlash card)...

NeoWare CA19 Thin Client = $15
Power cable = $2.99
44pin IDE cable (get the 4" cable, despite the price -- trust me!) = $6.99
CompactFlash->IDE adapter (44pin male connector) = $5.75
32gb CompactFlash Card (Newegg pricing) = $37.99
1gb DDR2 SODIMM (it takes laptop RAM) = $4.25

Total = $72.97 *

* Add $3.19+shipping for the heatsink&fan (I assume if you can solder that you have or can scrounge the needed connectors) -- get the golden squarish ones eBay has for video cards ("vga cooler" is the search term here). They're perfect.

I daresay that it'd be hard to find a good Dell for that price outside of a yard sale... besides, even if you did it would most likely be a P4 Dell that pulled about as much power as a carbon-arc searchlamp!

Pentium 4's are nasty beasts... you'd save a ton on your electric bill with this over a P4 anything -- enough to go to the movies every month or two, probably.

greengeek · #18 Post by **greengeek** » Fri 18 Apr 2014, 04:31

Just found a couple of threads that may be of interest to anyone trying to updatify puppy 4.x

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 886#451886

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 889#483889

Edit:
also this one:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=66328

*** Edit2 : ***
See this current comment from Rerwin here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 645#771645

Colonel Panic · #19 Post by **Colonel Panic** » Fri 18 Apr 2014, 10:37

I've got some time this weekend so I'm going to get hold of a barebones pup, probably 4.12, and see if I can build it up into something worthwhile.

Have to say though that if I was going to build a community edition of Puppy for 2014 I'd probably use a 5 series Pup, most likely Wary as it's optimised for older computers.

mikeb · #20 Post by **mikeb** » Fri 18 Apr 2014, 12:50

I had no trouble running Lucid on a pentium 2 with EIDE ...definately one of the best kernels of any puppy for wide support . The userspace can be slimmed down considerably and the wrapper scripts do make it appear to be slow but it is solid. Wary...well whats in a name?

mike

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The 4.x equivalent of 2.14x

The 4.x equivalent of 2.14x