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Light-Debian-Core-Live-CD-Wheezy + Porteus-Wheezy
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3882
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 02:24    Post subject:  

Hi, William,
Please, check what remount command works on your NTFS partition to make it RW and post it here. I will make test initrd1.img for you and if it works we will use it.

Toni

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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 3200

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 02:26    Post subject:  

Oh, must it typed it wrong the first time. Remounting one of the other ntfs partitions does work. It is just on /live/image that it says that Remounting is not supported at present... I do have ntfs on this other old machine on the harddrive, but that drive has so many bad sectors on it, I'm not sure anything will work, but I'll give it a try there in case there is something weird about the other machine (the netbook). I still have a funny feeling it used to work on the netbook (and that was DebianDog wheezy not squeeze), but I'm certainly not sure.
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3882
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 02:30    Post subject:  

mcewanw wrote:
, but can't test on live system since /live/image is busy (being mounted ro and busy so unmountable).

No, William, the remount command will work on mounted system. Before with the original initrd-wheezy.img the remounting was from a script in /etc/profile.d and it works.

It is important to check the remount command on your boot NTFS partition. If it does not work try to find working variant with -t ntfs or something similar.

Toni

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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 03:04    Post subject:  

I just tried installing DebianDog wheezy on my other old machine that has ntfs partitions, but a flaky harddrive.

I think the remount command you gave is probably fine Toni, and that DebianDog probably did used to work on my other (good) machine - the netbook. I base this on something I notice now in the boot message of the old flaky harddrive machine: NTFS: "Volume is dirty and cannot remount", so DebianDog obviously tried. I suspect that is the problem on the netbook too because I remember seeming some ntfs volume error a month or two back when I was trying to defrag it. I will report back if I find something more. ntfs is really dodgy for this kind of work!

EDIT: I'm busy trying to chkdisk the ntfs on the netbook. First I'm uninstalling some huge apps after a readonly chkdsk indicated they were involved, but it is taking forever (maybe because the disk has problems). I remember now that I also had trouble on that netbook when I was using Lubuntu, which used to allow me to write to the underlying partition but suddenly stopped recognising it. I now think that may be for the same reason that the volume is 'dirty'. Winblows must allow its OS to use a dirty volume, whereas Linux ntfs driver must check and disallow writing unless the volume is clean I suspect. As for my old machine, that I normally only use with usbflash sticks (and usually work on), I know well that the harddisk is full of bad sectors on that one...

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mcewanw

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PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 08:38    Post subject:  

Toni: It seems from my tests that Debian live persistence is like Ubuntu/Lubuntu persistence except that it uses live-rw instead of casper-rw. With Ubuntu (and it seems Debian live) there is a problem with trying to use a persistence file on top of an ntfs filesystem. The following short quote highlights the issue and the workaround methodology:

http://www.rmprepusb.com/tutorials/ubuntu
Code:
PLEASE NOTE: Many linux versions (including Ubuntu) will not automatically mount a persistent filesystem if it is a file on an NTFS filesystem (i.e. if your casper-rw is file on an NTFS USB drive then it won't work!)

However, there is a way around this.

    First create your casper-rw file as explained in Step 5 - you MUST create the Ext2 file as casper-rw as this also sets the volume name of the filesystem to casper-rw.
    Next rename the casper-rw file to a suitable name (e.g. Ubuntu1204-rw) - this step is optional but it avoids any other linux you have trying to use casper-rw - you can thus have many linux ISOs that all try to use 'casper-rw' on the same USB boot drive.
    Ensure that the file is contiguous (run RMPrepUSB - Ctrl+F2 on the drive)
    Now add an extra line to the beginning of your grub4dos menu as a line just under the title line, as follows:

    partnew (hd0,3) 0x0 //ubuntu1204-rw


Based in part on the above, I earlier wrote a howto boot lubuntu from an iso with persistence in a casper-rw file stored on ntfs partition:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=745265#745265

As far as that howto is concerned, the "Method 1" I talk about is the nearest to what we are doing with DebianDog frugal.

To cut a long story short I was able to get persistence by creating a live-rw ext2 file on the same partition where I have my live folder. But that live-rw file needs to be given the label 'live-rw' using the -L option of mkfs.ext2 or using "e2label live-rw live-rw". In actual fact, the label is more important than the filename, which really could be anything (e.g. "e2label anyname live-rw". However, per the above comments from rmprepusb website, that alone is not enough. It is also necessary to have a blank partition table entry, which is used to point back to the live-rw labelled file in whatever partition it is in... On my system for example, live-rw is in /dev/sda3 (i.e. hd0,2) and I use the otherwise blank partition table entry /dev/sda4 (i.e. hd0,3) to point back to /dev/sda3 (hd0,2) using the following grub4dos "partnew" stanza:

Code:
title DebianDog on /dev/sda3
  partnew (hd0,3) 0x0 (hd0,2)/live-rw
  kernel (hd0,2)/live/vmlinuz1 boot=live config persistent quickreboot noprompt autologin
  initrd (hd0,2)/live/initrd1.img


I 'think' but can't remember really, that prior to doing the above I had to add the new partition table entry as type Linux ext2 even though it had no actual size (all disk space was already used up by sda1, 2, and 3). Maybe that wasn't necessary - I don't seem to mention it in my earlier howto. It is certainly important to check that /dev/sda3 partition table entry truly is free (empty) prior to doing the above.

Indeed you have to be careful with the above grub4dos lines because partnew actually writes the new partition table entry pointing back to /dev/sda3 in my example (you can take out the partnew command thereafter, if you wish, actually because the info is then already stored in the partition table entry).

I think the problem comes about because /live/image (in Debian or Ubuntu) refuses to remount rw, but I'm not sure if that is the cause.

This trick seems to work because /dev/sda4 here gets mounted rw on /live/cow (as mount command shows) whereas /dev/sda3 (where live-rw file really is) only gets mounted ro on /live/image, which is an ntfs partition.

That's all I can say about getting persistence on ntfs partition with ext2 live-rw file at the moment. There doesn't seem to be much info to be googled about this at all (some pieces I just did by trial and error). It would be great if a way could be found to make /live/image rw on ntfs partition of course. As things stand, I can't write files to there at all (other than to the persistent file via that other partition redirection). If /live/image could be made rw somehow for ntfs case then I suspect the dummy partition table workaround would not be required (though I'm not sure about that either...). My nightshift now comes to an end...

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catsezmoo

Joined: 09 Feb 2014
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 08:38    Post subject:  

fredx181 wrote:

Quote:
Here is my first made debian package Smile


Just had a quick look in yours and the original and noticed you edited the dependencies.
Sometimes these deps seems crazy to me (e.g. why iceweasel needed by JWM? Rolling Eyes )

Technically, seems the JWM package dependency was "www-browser" _OR _ "iceweasel" (which Debian slots as the default browser)
...but that dependency has now (recently) been removed from the stock debian JWM package.

jwm (2.1.0+svn579-2) has not yet made it into the "stable" debian repository.
It is available from the debian "jessie" and "sid" repositories, though.

refs:
changelog http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/j/jwm/unstable_changelog
testing http://packages.debian.org/jessie/jwm
lookup, by pkg name http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=jwm

Quote:
wonder why some debian packages have so strange dependencies in order to be installed


The package maintainers are human -- they makes mistakes, they have biases, and some (evident in numerous gnome pkgs) even apparently have "agenda".
(Too often, both the "depends" and "recommends" markings are, cough, overzealously declared)

Also, In debian, the frequent deps on a named ICONSET pkg are particularly annoying (to me).
Authors (or pkg maintainers) for many otherwise TINY utilities, choose an icon from the "gnome-icon" package.
Boom, iconset + icons cachefile (62Mb!)
...then, if you're not vigilant, you install some other tiny app which "depends" on TANGO iconset... adding another 22-28Mb of %*$#! to your system.
I gave up wrestling, working around, the icon deps and just let APT install 'em. I setup daily cron script to nix the iconcache file(s) for installed iconsets and check/nix the 64px+ larger imagefiles from the gnome iconset path (FWIW, those large missing files are reinstalled each time the iconset pkg is apt-updated, which happens often)

In the debian package management environment, you (we) should never "be left wondering" about dependencies.
Several great (perhaps not documented thoroughly enough) lookup tools exist to track/understand dependencies.
From the commandline (see "man dpkg") and from within Synaptic GUI, both dependencies and dependants are viewable for each package.

Sadly, the stock (default) settings for Synaptic lack an enabled tickmark for "show pkg details in main window"
(which presents a dependencies/dependants info tab for any focused package)
and DOES, by default (IIRC) tickmark enable the "treat recommends as dependencies" setting. Ouch!
These are defaults which I strongly feel should be changed in the base image prior to re-distributing a debian-based distro.
Additionally, IMO, prior to redistribution the default handling of recommends should be declared within etc/apt/apt.conf
Code:
// in many packages, markings for Recommends are often overreaching
APT::Install-Recommends "0";
APT::Install-Suggests "0";
to spare the CLI user from the need to continually append apt-get install --no-install-recommends
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3882
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 08:47    Post subject:  

Thank you, William.
Glad you have working way around this problem.
The other fix for this will be to use toram=-1-v4.squashfs. Then the module will be loaded on ram and your NTFS partition should be RW mounted on boot.
We can search for better fix also.
Toni

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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 3200

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 09:00    Post subject:  

Toni, I can't remember if DebianDog contains an app for making a new live-rw (I'm on a different system at the moment). If it does, then I suggest when it does mkfs it includes "-L live-rw" to give it the appropriate volume name, which as I say above is very relevant to what is automatically searched for in looking for the persistence file.
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3882
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 09:07    Post subject:  

Thank you, Catsezmoo.

I'm sorry if you get my words wrong. I admire Debian development team work and I like it a lot.

I disagree the unneeded dependencies work is a mistake of Debian team. I'm sure they have a good reason from their point of view.
Not many people use old computers like me and Debian-Wheezy is not distro for old computer. We only try to make it small and light.
I'm glad jwm works with all dependencies removed from the package and adds only 300-400 kb in size. This is what we need here.
On the other hand if I use modern hardware I'm sure I will use Iceweasel anyway. So having JWM to depend on IceWeasel has its logic also. Saves time to choose what internet browser to install.

Toni

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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3882
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 09:08    Post subject:  

mcewanw wrote:
Toni, I can't remember if DebianDog contains an app for making a new live-rw (I'm on a different system at the moment). If it does, then I suggest when it does mkfs it includes "-L live-rw" to give it the appropriate volume name, which as I say above is very relevant to what is automatically searched for in looking for the persistence file.

Hi, William.

I edited a little Terry's mk-save.gtkdlg application. Can you please test it to see if this is what we need (if needed make it executable with chmod u+x):
http://www.smokey01.com/saintless/Fredx181/mk-save.gtkdlg
Just for information DebianDog can be booted with the original initrd.img and use persistence instead live-rw save file. I prefer not to label live-rw automatic for every save file.
I added choice box for label: live-rw, persistence, or no label. (live-rw is default choice).
This way we can use the same save file application to create persistence save file with label persistence, or not to label at all.
If it is OK I will add it in DebianDog. If it is not, please change it as you see it best (if Terry does not mind).

Toni

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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
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Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 14:00    Post subject:  

sunburnt wrote:
Working ArcDrop ( I believe...).
Tested in root and puppy users for multi. file/dir. drag from Rox.

Thank you, Terry!
Seems working fine. Tested for puppy and root with drag-drop multiple files/folders from XFE.
I will replace the previous one with this one in the next testing module.

Toni
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Mark_C

Joined: 28 Aug 2010
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 15:40    Post subject:  

using 01-v4 squashfs

First thing I notice after booting the initial screen draws really slow, starts with a small rectangle for the drives then the rest of the screen fills in.

Also on first boot after the screen draws I get this message.
No Pinboard was in use, the default pinboard has been selected.
Use "rox -p=default to turn it on in future.
not sure what effect if any this has on operation, it doesn't appear to have any.

Also the wallpaper selector doesn't seem to work properly.
I remove all the wallpapers on the right then select one from the left and add it to the right, hit apply and nothing happens.
If I open rox select the startup folder and click on the wallpapers link then the background changes to the one that's been selected.

I run from a usb hard drive using grub so I tried a fresh install to a usb stick and I get the same behavior.
I then redownload the v4 squashfile and tried it again with a fresh install on a usb stick and get the same results.

I tried it on a desktop computer and a eeepc laptop I have and the same results on either one.

Mark
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 16:04    Post subject:  

Thank you for testing, Mark!

Mark_C wrote:
First thing I notice after booting the initial screen draws really slow, starts with a small rectangle for the drives then the rest of the screen fills in.

Different startup X method is used because of IceWM trey bug. icewmbg is not loaded and there is black screen before Rox-pinboard wallpaper appears. The startup process at the moment is actual faster but because of the black screen it looks slower I think.

Quote:
Also on first boot after the screen draws I get this message.
No Pinboard was in use, the default pinboard has been selected.
Use "rox -p=default to turn it on in future.

I will check way you get this message. I don't but at least know where to look for this propblem.

Quote:
Also the wallpaper selector doesn't seem to work properly.
I remove all the wallpapers on the right then select one from the left and add it to the right, hit apply and nothing happens.
If I open rox select the startup folder and click on the wallpapers link then the background changes to the one that's been selected.

The wallpapers work this way:
You have four red buttons for each desktop on the taskbar. In wallpapers you have different wallpapers for each desktop. Changing the desktop from the button changes the wallpaper.
Wallpapers Start button starts the wallpapers for each desktop.
Wallpapers Stop button stops them and uses default wallpaper for all desktops.
Check mark of Run on boot box creates link in /root/Startup to autostart wallpapers changing for each desktop. Unmark this box removes the link from /root/Startup and after boot you have one wallpaper for all desktops.
If you like to change the default wallpaper remove all from the right side and add new ones. Then hit Stop Wallpapers and Start Wallpapers button and the desktop will change.

Toni
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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 3200

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 16:18    Post subject:  

Hi Toni, I gave Terry's mksave script a quick try and it seems to work fine and you mods are correct thanks.

If you do find a way of getting persistence to work on ntfs partition without the complicated trick using partnew or having to use up RAM with toram that would be a very important find since many may well use frugal installs on top of their existing windows ntfs partitions. I do that myself very often, since there is less risk involved having to otherwise shrink partitions in order to create Linux ones and for the most part running frugal installs on top of ntfs works fine.

EDIT: On second thoughts, although the mksave script does work it isn't user friendly in the sense that once you choose the save file options and start it running no popup appears (not even an xterm, which would I feel be sufficient for this simple task) to show you what is going on (progress etc). That would be a problem in use because if some starts the process of making a large save file and later changes their mind, everything is going on in the background, which defeats the user friendliness of the gui at that stage.

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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 4123
Location: holland

PostPosted: Wed 12 Feb 2014, 16:41    Post subject:  

Hi Toni, William

I have the same problem as William has that /live/image is read-only when booting from ntfs, I tried:
Code:
mount -t ntfs-3g /dev/sda1 /live/image -o remount,rw
Remounting is not supported at present. You have to umount volume and then mount it once again.

If I remember well, you said you edited initrd to mount /live/image.
Maybe there should be a line for specific ntfs filesystem to mount rw.

For the rest briefly testing your latest 01-v4.squashfs: all fine.

Regards
Fred
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