Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Sat 17 Nov 2018, 17:07
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
Linux is so behind with UEFI systems
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
Page 1 of 1 [14 Posts]  
Author Message
fixit

Joined: 16 Mar 2013
Posts: 930
Location: El Lago, Texas

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jul 2014, 18:45    Post subject:  Linux is so behind with UEFI systems  

Before I recommend that he try Puppy, I thought I would seek out some feedback.

Code:
My son has a UEFI laptop as a gift for his first communion: a Toshiba E1 AMD-Radeon with a W8.1 bullshit preinstalled that I send to the bin (backuped previously). It was full of demo software that I uninstalled because only took place, in such a way that it seems that I took something enough to the system went so slowly that could not be possible to work. So I convinced my son to install Linux... I didn't know that Linux is so behind with UEFI systems. I have tried to install many many linux distros, and I just managed to install successfully Linux Mint and opensuse, but so weakly that quickly went down for so stupid stuff: logout with a usb stick connected, trying to unmounting a cd, etc In such a way that the system hungs out and it was needed to logout in brute force, and therefore the system was not able to boot up.

_________________
Thanks,
Andy

Primary O.S. Tahr Puppy 6.0 Thunar is file manager.
Puppy 5.9.3 ( Beta )
Windows XP SP3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
FeodorF


Joined: 07 Jul 2010
Posts: 233
Location: Heidelberg, Germany

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jul 2014, 20:37    Post subject:  

Feedback

ubuntu documentation

UEFIBooting -> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEFIBooting

UEFI -> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEFI

SecureBoot -> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEFI#SecureBoot
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 5281
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jul 2014, 21:36    Post subject:  

I'm no fan of UEFI, but just reading your quote I would say that person should stay in a Windows environment. The hardware is probably more Linux friendly than the user you've quoted.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11270
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jul 2014, 23:42    Post subject:  

With a computer this new, you need to be trying to use one of the newer versions of Puppy.
Fatdog64
Slacko 5.7
Precise 5.7.1

For 4GB or more of memory, you need a PAE version that can see and use all 4GB.

For Fatdog64 on a UEFI computer with Windows 8
http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/faqs/secure-boot.html

In bios look for an option to turn off or Disable secure-boot.

This guy got his to work by doing this:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=81653
Quote:
n the ‘Advanced’ section of the BIOS there is a menu called ‘SATA configuration’ selecting this and then from the sub-menu select ‘SATA mode selection’ which has three options; IDE (the default), AHCI and disabled.

Changing the ‘SATA mode selection’ from IDE to AHCI solved the problem and I now have access as normal


Search for UEFI here may help:
http://puppylinux.us/psearch.html

Also, you may see an option for legacy boot or something like that in the UEFI settings.

_________________
I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11270
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jul 2014, 23:48    Post subject:  

With a computer this new, you need to be trying to use one of the newer versions of Puppy.
Fatdog64
Slacko 5.7
Precise 5.7.1

For 4GB or more of memory, you need a PAE version that can see and use all 4GB.

For Fatdog64 on a UEFI computer with Windows 8
http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/faqs/secure-boot.html

In bios look for an option to turn off or Disable secure-boot.

This guy got his to work by doing this:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=81653
Quote:
n the ‘Advanced’ section of the BIOS there is a menu called ‘SATA configuration’ selecting this and then from the sub-menu select ‘SATA mode selection’ which has three options; IDE (the default), AHCI and disabled.

Changing the ‘SATA mode selection’ from IDE to AHCI solved the problem and I now have access as normal


Search for UEFI here may help:
http://puppylinux.us/psearch.html

Also, you may see an option for legacy boot or something like that in the UEFI settings.

_________________
I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11270
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 03 Jul 2014, 23:53    Post subject:  

If you are going to duel boot with Puppy and Windows 8. Be ready to deal with Windows 8 issues.

Example:
http://www.zdnet.com/uefi-and-windows-8-update-on-windowslinux-dual-boot-systems-7000028217/

_________________
I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
pemasu


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 5485
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Fri 04 Jul 2014, 05:39    Post subject:  

New laptop with Win 8X and UEFI - secure boot.
How to do it ( when you are in linux world ) to get linux distros work oob.

First check that the laptop is linux compatible. Ie all hardware components has linux driver to operate. Search the net with linux and desired laptop specs as search names and soon you know if the new laptop has full enough linux support.
The newest kernels has the best support for the bleeding edge laptops, remember that when you start to test distros. Choose distro with as new kernel as possible. Intel/Nvidia dual graphics problems are fixed from kernel 3.15 and up. There are newer wireless chips which need bleeding edge kernel module drivers etc...

Next...check that the new laptop has legacy bios option. Search the net or do as I do, contact the service firm ( usually you can find the official service email addresses from the company page. I found mine acer service firm that way. )
Ask them how to disable UEFI and secure boot and so on....to get legacy bios enabled. Mostly you can find that information from the net straight. I just wanted to be sure, so I contacted acer service company before I bought my laptop and I got detailed information how to do it..also they sent youtube links where the process was showed. And explanation what that video lacked to do it right. There was one password protected procedure which was not explained in video. So...it was good that I contacted service straight.
How to enable legacy bios is not the same with different models. Or...it is not sure that there is even legacy bios option.

Now that you have legacy bios enabled...boot Puppy CD or usb. Run gparted and format your hdd from gpt partitions to good old mbr.Format as ext2, ext3, ext4, whatever....and to swap. That way you get rid of unwanted Win 8 also. Bye bye. Remember to format whole hdd so that hidden factory default partition has been deleted also. Unneeded trash meant for win 8 restoring. But we dont want win 8X...right ?
Remember to give boot flag to the partitions you want to boot.

There are so many ways to install bootloader that I only remind that you will need bootloader to be installed.

Now....you can install without problems what ever linux distro which you want to test...remember, the newer kernel the better.

Other way is to start to hassle with linux UEFI support. FatDog is good choice for that....Jamesbond has done splendid job with FatDog and UEFI support. Ubuntu is good candidate also. Just check the Ubuntu support pages. It still might take days before you get it working.

My method consisted good beforehand exploring and when I got my laptop, it was all done in an hour to get it linux ready...without UEFI - secure boot - Win 8.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 6730
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jul 2014, 16:21    Post subject:  

@Pemasu, +1

UEFI via FATDOG is rather simple if you review its documentation. Further, once using FATDOG to set the UEFI needs (this can be done WITHOUT installing FATDOG.), one can use that UEFI to boot LightHouse64-602 as well.

_________________
Get ACTIVE Create Circles; Do those good things which benefit people's needs!
We are all related ... Its time to show that we know this!
3 Different Puppy Search Engines or use DogPile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
cimarron


Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Sat 05 Jul 2014, 17:53    Post subject:  

Dedoimedo explains installing Ubuntu 14.04 alongside Windows 8 ("with a GPT partition table, UEFI and Secure Boot, so it's all one can possibly dread"). Sounds like it was easier than he expected:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/dual-boot-windows-8-ubuntu.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 4013
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jul 2014, 00:53    Post subject:  

I have a low end AMD laptop for win8 that Fatdog64 tweeked works very well. Since Win8 has been backed up and you aren't going to dual boot. Change Boot menu to legacy mode or CSM or BIOS what ever the other setting option rather than UEFI is given. And any spin of linux will work.
However if you have a rare really locked down box then Fatdog64 has signed UEFI keys accept by Microsoft bootloader under secured UEFI. Just aprove the scarey boot message and the keys are saved permanently for that machine to boot. The keys allow shims so once used you generally can boot any related 64 UEFI kernel not just Fatdog64. Rolling Eyes
There is a easy method to install a secure UEFI by making first partition of either GPT or older harddrive setup for MSDos as a Fat32. then placing all Fatdog64 files inside. You do need to expand the EFI.img by loop mount and copy all of it into a folder EFI inside the first Fat32 part.
I recommend a GPT setup to use the configuration settings of Fatdog64 to the fullest. But MSdos would be more common for 32bit puppies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 4013
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jul 2014, 01:18    Post subject:  

Since it seems you have hit every landmine of hardware developed for wIn8 exclusively and chose to blame linux. Here are the landmines and some work arounds.
USB3 is not powered on till after boot can not be used to boot even in fall back mode. Also a USB device needs to be U10 speed or better or it will be skipped in the USB2 port. Also needs to setup like a win recover USB drive to be used directly each boot ( same as harddrive I wrote eariler default formatted USB flashdrive with vfat32 as single partion works without needing a boot MSR )
CD and DVD drives generally act like a USB3 and not powered unless boot completed so near worthless as a boot device even if setup correctly like Fatdog64 does with a EFI dvd bootloader. However some will boot that method under UEFI and better support under BIOS mode ( but not always its still EFI acting like BIOS and not a true different boot.

With those limits in Hardware you can get around some such as slow USB drives or booting from SDcard by interrupting the boot with F2 and waiting a few seconds before exiting out. That gives the hardware a bit more time to power up and set to read slow devices.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 4013
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Sun 06 Jul 2014, 01:43    Post subject:  

So I guess you figured out that machines build for Win8 have odd power saving features built into hardware and those oddities are part and parcel of the headaches you have. There is a buncb more if you wished to dual boot but if you do not want those any way Windows will actually kill itself if not shutdown exactly as needed EACH time you booted into linux. Plus with 2^16 choices for partion IDs under GPT Windows uses the ID historical used by linux and not one of its many others. So your linux setup will prompt a blank disc for formating when seen booted back into Windows. Your kids just needs to select OK and poof linux installs vanish. Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 580

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul 2014, 16:00    Post subject:  

My philosophy is to not modernize too quickly. Better to remain in middle of the pack so to speak, the Goldilocks sweet spot (porridge not too hot, not too cold). Dont want ancient stuff, dont want cutting edge. My cheapness gene usually saves me from owning cutting edge anything. And by time I have to move to newer, the cutting edge crowd have already abandoned it for years and its as cheap as the ancient stuff.

Figure by time I am forced to a win8 era computer, the linux workarounds to windows centric hardware, will be easy by then. Its those win12 computers by that time that will be the headache.

By way save a copy of the win8 restore partition, ... just in case you want to sell the computer in future. You will have lot more potential buyers if its freshly restored to win8. Sad but true. Linux only just limits your market. Give them option of a free Puppy cd or offer to install fresh Puppy if you want to promote linux.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
otropogo


Joined: 24 Oct 2009
Posts: 774
Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul 2014, 22:48    Post subject:  

Ted Dog wrote:


... USB3 is not powered on till after boot can not be used to boot even in fall back mode. Also a USB device needs to be U10 speed or better or it will be skipped in the USB2 port. Also needs to setup like a win recover USB drive to be used directly each boot...


...CD and DVD drives generally act like a USB3 and not powered unless boot completed so near worthless as a boot device even if setup correctly like Fatdog64 does with a EFI dvd bootloader. However some will boot that method under UEFI and better support under BIOS mode ( but not always its still EFI acting like BIOS and not a true different boot.

...


I've been booting from USB3 ports on a non-UEFI laptop for a couple of years, and from a UEFI one for the better part of a year. I've had even less trouble booting on the same machines from CD and DVD.

And the non UEFI laptop will also boot from an Class 4 or even lower speed flash card.

My problem is getting the UEFI laptop to boot a Lucid528 install, and the problem seems to be that the boot media have to be configured a certain way. I conclude this because:

1.Knoppix 7.2 will boot from DVD or USBflash on the UEFI PC.

2. Knoppix 7.2 is preconfigured with both the following folders in the root directory:

a) /efi/boot/ containing four files - bootx32.efi,bootx64.efi, ldlinux.e32, ldlinux.e64 (/efi contains nothing else)

b)/boot/syslinux/ containing- syslinux.cfg, sylnx64.cfg, linux, linux64, grub.exe, minirt.gz, F2 and F3 links,and some message links and memory tests. There's nothing except the syslinux folder and its contents in the /root/boot/ folder.

3. The UEFI recognizes both the Knoppix and the Puppy flash cards as bootable (on the USB3 port), and allows them to be set in priority position

4. When I created an efi/boot/ folder on the Puppy card, and copied the two boot.efi files and ldlinux.e64 from Knoppix into it, together with vmlinuz, isolinux.bin, syslinux.cfg and initrd.gz from the root directory of the Puppy card, Linux did boot and started to load, but then stalled because (I'm guessing) it couldn't find the right kernel.

That's as far as I could get.

So I conclude that this (ASUS)UEFI at least won't boot any external device that doesn't follow the same directory structure. Of course, I have no idea how to get or create the necessary Puppy compatible files to populate the folder(s).

_________________
otropogo@gmail.com facebook.com/otropogo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 1 [14 Posts]  
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.0645s ][ Queries: 12 (0.0064s) ][ GZIP on ]