Windows 8, 8.1 and 10: How to Boot Puppy

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mikeslr
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Windows 8, 8.1 and 10: How to Boot Puppy

#1 Post by mikeslr »

Hi All,

Edit: July 13, 2018: If it's not too late DO NOT BUY a Windows 10 S computer. A Windows S (or 10 S) computer is a cheaper model, supposedly for those in school, which has a 'cut down' version of Windows and additional security "enhancements". https://www.howtogeek.com/305363/what-i ... different/. scsijon explains the effect of those "enhancements": http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 195#989195. Short version: as a practical matter, you're stuck with only running Windows S.

Edit: GENERAL HINT APPLICABLE TO ALL THREADS. Read the first page or so in order to become familiar with the circumstances being discussed. Then skip to the end of the thread to find out the latest information. Then work backwards from there, as necessary.

Edit: Dec 21.2018: Hopefully and probably not, but to do any of the following, you may first have to use exotic procedures under Windows. See here, noting that your system may be different, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 43#1013643. Getting documentation about your computer may help.

Edit Jan 4, 2019: If your hard-drive has been formatted as GPT, and you want your Puppy to boot from that hard-drive, follow the instructions provided by rcrsn51:http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 50#1013650. :idea: If you don't know, find out before going further.

Edit: Nov 6,2016: Even if you decide to place your Puppy(s) on your hard-drive, I recommend that you give priority to booting from your USB-port, and place your Puppy bootloader on a USB-Stick. Plug in the stick to boot Puppy. Don't plug it in and boot Windows. Especially recommended if you do not have a Windows Recovery Disk.. More than one person has locked themselves out of Windows by messing with Windows booting system.

Edit Nov 25, 2018: Read g/g's comments about, then follow the link to limbomusic's recipe, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 42#1011242 or from here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 227#989227

Try this first:
:D http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 720#462720

Hopefully, you won't find it necessary to come back to this post and read further :) Except

Edit December 13, 2018: If you intend to install Puppy to a hard-drive and Multi-boot with another LinuxOS, see: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 38#1012938. Note, Although there may be exceptions of which I'm not aware, any boot argument you could use with Grub4dos can also be used with Grub2.

Edit: July 2, 2018: Perhaps the best and most succinct overview of what is involved, and how to deal with it, is provided by rcrsn51. Rather than linking directly to that post, see my comments here, where such link is provided: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 655#997655

Try this Next. :) oldaolgeezer has kindly provided an easy to follow "How To": http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 827#975827. Read the rest of this short thread, especially, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 466#977466

Edit: November 29, 2017: If you have a computer build as Windows 10, and yours is a Puppy with the uefi designation in its ISO's name, you can install your Puppy to a USB-Key and "Go into windoz settings panel and tell it to rebuild. click usb (where your linux is plugged in) and windoz will think you have its own rebuild hooked up. It properly turns itself off and gives full control over to the usb drive/stick. It's like it was never there. No fussing with the bootloader is necessary. " Dry Falls, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 594#975594

Edit March 7, 2017: A snafu and maybe a work-around -- http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 430#946430

See also, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 608#943608. As Puppies can run from folders, the following menu entry should also work with recent Puppies:

menuentry "Start tahrpup" {
linux /tahrpup32/vmlinuz
initrd /tahrpup32/initrd.gz
}

Change tarhpu32 to reflect the Puppy of your choice.

Edit April 28, 2016: If you haven't already acquired a computer, you may want to start looking for one here: http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=hardware, Thanks, labbe5, for the link.

So, you have a computer on which Windows 8, 8.1 or 10 came installed as its operating system or "upgraded to 10" and now you want to try Puppy Linux.

Edit March 20, 2016 Step -2 Warning! Warning! If you're thinking about installing a Puppy to your hard-drive, study this post first: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 229#855229 Thanks, jamesbond.

I strongly recommend that you make certain that the Puppy you are interested in, or any Puppy, can actually be booted on your computer via a USB-Stick before taking any risk, no matter how slight, which trying to install such Puppy to your hard-drive may involve.

Edit Feb 25, 2016: Step -1 icake has provided a list of Pups which could and couldn't boot via iMac's EFI. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=102158. Expect similar results trying to boot Pups from a PC employing UEFI. I recommend not spending a great amount of time trying to boot a Pup which probably can't be booted on your system. :roll:

Edit March 26, 2016: It may also help to check this thread for what did and didn't work: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 093#896093

Edit Aug 12, 2015: Step 0. Ted Dog has developed "No-format" install for UEFI based machines Win8 & MacTel, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=97141, which also works with Windows 10. Even if you intend to try something else, I recommend that you first test your desired Pup via a "No format" install to a USB-Key/Stick. See also a couple posts on this thread beginning here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 135#861135

Edit March 26, 2016: per recobayu, Yumi Multiboot USB Creator also works. See http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 087#896087 and post following it for link to Yumi.

Edit April 1, 2016: jamesbond has called our attention to the following method, with clear instructions, for booting ANY Puppy via a USB-Stick, or at least attempting to: http://blog.puppylinux.com/?page=3

Edit: Feb 27, 2017: Thanks, mistfire, may be the quickest method for creating a Puppy CD: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 720#938720

Step 1. You will have to turn-off Fast Startup/boot. Before doing anything else I strongly recommend searching the web for specifics regarding how to do that on your computer, model and current Windows system. The link below provides general instructions. Further research revealed that even among computers manufactured by Dell, the proper procedure differed from one model to another.

Fast Startup/boot actually is what is usually referred to as “hibernate
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Correction and further comments

#2 Post by mikeslr »

Hi all,

In the above post I stated that microsoft sells the UEFI-secured boot licenses. It doesn't. Such licenses are sold by Verisoft. Unless Fedora cut a "special deal", the cost of a license was $99. http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... ecure-boot.

"Red Hat's Matthew Garrett said the Fedora project had considered a number of alternatives, including creating a catch-all Linux key, but that paying Verisign a one-off $99 fee for a key was the easiest and most pragmatic solution...

'Garrett also confirmed that all drivers shipped with Fedora will be signed but also rightly said that it can't sign 'out of tree' drivers. Fedora will also be signing all kernel modules and, Garrett said, "locking down certain aspects of kernel functionality.'"

Even if Puppy Linux were to acquire such license, I wonder whether our 'free for all" --experiment, woof-you-own, remaster, publish if you want-- approach to Linux could survive?

mikesLr

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Secure Boot already hacked

#3 Post by mikeslr »

Hi All,

In my original post I suggested that the ostensible purpose of Secure Boot --deterrence of root-kits-- wasn't its real purpose; that it would only deter miscreants for so long as it would take them to somehow overcome the impediment.

Overcoming the impediment didn't take very long. https://www.hackinparis.com/node/270

http://blog.trendmicro.com/trendlabs-se ... t-systems/

I didn't attend CanSecWest Vancouver 2015. But apparently Corey Kallenberg and Xeno Kovah, How many million BIOSes would you like to infect? https://cansecwest.com/speakers.html believe:

"...in part due to the widespread adoption of UEFI, a framework that makes it easier for the vendors along the manufacturing chain to add modules and tinker with the code. That’s proven useful for the good guys, but also made it simpler for researchers to inspect the BIOS, find holes and create tools that find problems, allowing Kallenberg and Kovah to show off exploits across different PCs. In the demo to FORBES, an HP PC was used to carry out an attack on an ASUS machine. Kovah claimed that in tests across different PCs, he was able to find and exploit BIOS vulnerabilities across 80 per cent of machines he had access to and he could find flaws in the remaining 10 per cent.

“There are protections in place that are supposed to prevent you from flashing the BIOS and we’ve essentially automated a way to find vulnerabilities in this process to allow us to bypass them. It turns out bypassing the protections is pretty easy as well,
Last edited by mikeslr on Mon 03 Aug 2015, 16:19, edited 2 times in total.

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#4 Post by 8Geee »

Hmmm, respondants seem to claim...
1.) Physical access
2.) Use of older UEFI BIOS
3.) ntfs filesystem
4.) Intel CPU
5.) NO password lock of the BIOS
Linux user #498913 "Some people need to reimagine their thinking."
"Zuckerberg: a large city inhabited by mentally challenged people."

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Windows 10 -- Paying rent so you can flush your toilet

#5 Post by mikeslr »

Hi All,

In my original post I suggested that Microsofts Marketing strategy had changed. That its economic model "is not that of a seller-buyer, but rather of a landlord-tenant, where the tenant has to pay rent if, in the future, a flushing toilet is important."

If you thought this was hyperbole, think again: http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly ... usiness%29

mikesLr

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Pups built for Windows 8/8.1 & 10 Computer with Secure Boot

#6 Post by mikeslr »

The term UEFI means Unified Extensible Firmware Interface. As used hereafter, the term “UEFI-mode
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Questions about No-format install for UEFI based machines

#7 Post by mikeslr »

Hi All,

I started this thread on July 27, 2015. It is now 23 days later and its been viewed 632 times. I suspect there's some interest in the topic. If you've looked at the Beginners Help Subforum during that time, you may have noticed that this thread started near the top of the thread, just below the "stickies", and that just before I entered this post the thread had slid down so that it was then on the second page and not observable by anyone just clicking on the Beginners Help Subforum.

That's the way the forum works. It considers neither general interest nor frequency of views in a thread's placement: only how current the interest is as measured by the latest "reply". As it should. I am certain that there were many fine posts 5 years ago which attracted a great deal of attention to the then current problems. But by today their content may no longer be relevant.

As I mentioned several times in previous posts, I do not have a computer which requires or even permits UEFI booting.

I was particularly interested in exploring some possibilities of using Ted Dogs “No-format install for UEFI based machines
Last edited by mikeslr on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 20:04, edited 2 times in total.

disciple
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#8 Post by disciple »

FWIW the new "LICK" windows based installer worked fine on my wife's machine (running Windows 10) - the only thing I saw that could be improved is it could tell you that you need to sort out your "bios" boot options.
Do you know a good gtkdialog program? Please post a link here

Classic Puppy quotes

ROOT FOREVER
GTK2 FOREVER

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LICK - Puppy Installer for Windows

#9 Post by mikeslr »

Hi disciple,

Glad to hear that. Those interested in trying LICK will find the download link here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 067#856067.

Reading this thread and applying self-analysis --something I'm prone to do with my excess of spare time-- it seems I exhibit all too human characteristics when I stumble upon a problem. First reaction, "The Sky is Falling" -- primitive "flight or fight" and being an idealist I'm almost invariably drawn to the latter. Second reaction --sound the alarm. Third reaction -- look for rational solutions.

Looking for rational solutions I was pleased to find that long before I even knew there was a problem jamesbond and kirk's had followed the practical approach (acquire the necessary signature) and that noryb009 --who had already been working on a simplified method of installing Puppies from Windows-- had expanded his efforts to provide for installation under Windows 8/8.1.

I take it that your wife's computer had been a Windows 7 or 8/8.1 and has been upgraded to 10. If so, this answers one of the questions I had about such upgrade: whether it involves only an operating system upgrade or whether it included flashing the UEFI chip to overwrite the instructions included in 8/8.1 that enabled secure boot to be turned off.
You indicated "you need to sort out your "bios" boot options" and, although I didn't read thru the entire Window Installer thread, these instructions found at LICK's download site still seem to be necessary:

"Before installing any PLIC* installer on Windows 8, please make sure you have:
1) disabled fast boot
2) disabled secure boot
3) changed UEFI to legacy mode

You can find detailed instructions on how to do each online."

* PLIC was the name noryb009 gave LICK's precursor.

Fortunately, it seems flashing the UEFI chip wasn't included. [Good thing Microsoft didn't hire me. :lol: ]

BUT SEE POSTSCRIPT.

True Windows 10 computers are still rare, and it will probably take another 4 or 5 years before their owners, while looking for a better operating system, stumble upon Puppy. So I guess we have some time to prepare for that.


mikesLr

POSTSCRIPT: Reading the Windows Installer thread revealed that with the publication of LICK "it supports Windows NT - 8.1, including UEFI and secure boot...
Known bugs:
- secure boot isn't working - DONE
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 464#851464

And now supports Windows 10. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 067#856067

So --if I've got this correctly-- it is only necessary to turn off fast boot. And if I understand "fast boot" correctly, its a procedure which actually puts Windows into "hibernate" when Shutdown was selected and, as such, prevents any alternate OS install and modification of loading procedures as "Startup" immediately takes the computer out of hibernate and into Windows.
Last edited by mikeslr on Fri 21 Aug 2015, 15:56, edited 3 times in total.

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#10 Post by Ted Dog »

no boot flag or such needed for efi boot. just a fat like partion first on boot drive. Yes if rufus is on a fat like filesystem the EFI files from .zip will boot either or bios or efi based on machine. However Macs will refuse to boot such a setup. Either BIOS or EFI not BOTH just for Macs. That is why DDing a Fatdog64 ISO over to USB will not boot macs but work great on PCs :!: It has 3 different boot methods built in.

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#11 Post by disciple »

TD, you're essentially talking about the situation where puppy is on his own partition, right?
Do you know a good gtkdialog program? Please post a link here

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#12 Post by Ted Dog »

LICK is an awesome find for Developers and those of us who use multiple puppylinux spins and a limited few OTHERS but my Grub4EFI was for true beginners nothing to install in windows nothing to learn just copy stuff to run of the mill fresh from the store no changes needed USB flashdrive and boot.
Idea there are some limited choices in puppylinux world that needed copy only to run. From there we freed them from WindowsHell (tm).
Once free then use same flashdrive to frugal install most rest of puppylinux spins and many others.

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#13 Post by Ted Dog »

disciple wrote:TD, you're essentially talking about the situation where puppy is on his own partition, right?
No its a EFI boot thing, most windows boxes I have used can and will check all fat type for the key folder EFI in the root, but EFI specs (old) check the first. So the first drive with EFI folder located first is the one that should be selected to boot from.
GRUB is GRUB its the full flavored version and can be configure to boot any one anywhere. I have mine (usbflash with grub4efi) boot directly into my fatdog64 on my main harddrive not messing with harddrives boot system but overriding it due to boot priorities listed above. Oh so maybe rethinking your statements, yes I do boot puppy in its own partition on the harddrive shared with Windows8.1 and another with Windows10TechRev. using these method.

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#14 Post by Ted Dog »

Here is an example where I boot from an Grub4EFI flashdrive and used a folder (inside of April7 full install on harddrive shared with win8.1 ) folder is called /da

Code: Select all

menuentry "Start Fatdog64-700.iso  directA7da" {
loopback loop0  /Fatdog64-700.iso
linux (loop0)/vmlinuz  rootfstype=ramfs savefile=direct:device:sda7:/da dofsck waitdev=4 
initrd (loop0)/initrd
posting from it now :wink:

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Slow loading of SaveFile on an ntfs partition-- solutions

#15 Post by mikeslr »

Hi all,

The purpose of this thread being to assist newbies in overcoming problems concerning Pups, I figured this was as good a place as any to mention a problem (posted on the Windows Installer thread) Snail discovered with Slacko 5.7 non-pae , and the solutions proposed. After suggestions by rcrsn51, snail posted "With the ext2 savefile the Xstep in boot up takes less than 20 seconds, ext3 takes about 5minutes 20secs and ext4 just over 6 minutes." http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 808#817808
rcrsn51 explained, . "It has to do with the version of the ntfs-3g driver that was used in Slacko57 nonPAE. Because your savefile is in an NTFS partition, ntfs-3g is in play, and it bogs down when working with journaled filesystems." http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 852#817852,

Alternate analysis and possible solutions were provided by SFR: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 821#817821

The Take-Away: On a computer manufactured in the last 5 years it shouldn't be necessary to run non-pae Pups. So the easiest solutions may be, don't. Alternatively, if your SaveFile takes a long time to load, consider using a different Pup.
Second easiest, as I've previously suggested, even if a Pup's boot files may have to be on an ntfs partition, I think it preferable, if possible, to create a Linux Ext3 partition to hold SaveFiles.

Third easiest solution for newbies specify Linux Ext2 as format for SaveFiles but, noting mikeb's warning that Linux Ext2 tends to corrupt quicker than Ext3 or 4, frequently backup your SaveFile.

Fourth Solution: I can't easily locate it, but there's a post somewhere on the forum explaining how to remove "journalizing" from Ext4 partitions.

mikesLr
Last edited by mikeslr on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 20:09, edited 1 time in total.

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#16 Post by disciple »

On a computer manufactured in the last 5 years it shouldn't be necessary to run non-pae Pups
Is it necessary even on very old computers. I seem to remember not being convinced that Barry had a good reason to keep building them
Do you know a good gtkdialog program? Please post a link here

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Pae vs. No Pae --and how old a computer

#17 Post by mikeslr »

Hi disciple,

As I, a layman. understand it, pae --Physical Address Extension-- is something built into a kernel, or not. Essentially, if built in, it enables a 32-bit computer to access more than 4 Gb of RAM. But, unless the "No Execute" feature is also builtin*, it results in a performance penalty.

Think of driving thru a one-lane tunnel, but still having to constantly check to your left and right because you've been programmed to do so to take into consideration what the cars in other lanes are doing.

A fairly thorough discussion of pae vs. no pae was had on this thread stared by Q5sys: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 274#686274. On that thread I mentioned a professional lab's tests. They can be found here: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=a ... _pae&num=1

Further information can be had on the Wikka, http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PAE.

* Not answered on Q5sys's thread were questions such as whether "No Execute" instructions were built into any Pup using a Pae kernel? and which Pups? and what exactly the "No Execute" instructions do? Although their name and the context they were referred to suggest they have something to do with how PAE operates, do they? And if all they do is turn off instructions to "check RAM beyond 4 Gbs" haven't they just done nothing more than convert a Pae-kernel to one which functions like a non-Pae kernel [of course, using computer resources to do so]?

To top it all off, I have yet to find a 32-bit Pup which under any circumstance had occasion to use 4 Gb of RAM, let alone a need for more than 4 Gb of RAM.

It always come down to a question of the most efficient use of resources.

Until 5 years ago, few PCs were manufactured to support 64-bit operating systems. Fewer still were sold with more than 4 Gb of RAM. Subsequently, even if the version of Windows which came with a new computer was a 32-bit system, the computer itself was manufactured to be capable of running a 64-bit OS, and into which more than 4 Gb of RAM could be installed. From an manufacturer's standpoint, one facility manufacturing/assembling one 64-bit capable CPU and motherboard computer is more efficient than two facilities: one for 64-bit computers and one for 32-bit computers.

mikesLr

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Possible Workaround for "loop-booted" ISO

#18 Post by mikeslr »

Hi All,

Edit:
It appears that this thread presents a solution to a problem which doesn't exist. See Cat&Dogs's post: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 738#865738

I'll leave the following as it may provide newbies with some insight into How Puppies Work and their flexibility in doing so.

It has occurred to me that there may be a workaround for any potential limitations of a loop-booted Pup. It should be possible to install pets “temporarily
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Just a note

#19 Post by mikeslr »

Hi All,

Honestly, the primary purpose of this post is that although this thread been view 1929 times in the last month and a half --suggesting that newbies have some interest in its contents-- as there have been no recent posts to this thread it is now buried on page three.

Rather than our having to begin from scratch answering the questions newbies owning Windows 8/8.1 and 10 computer have in trying to run Puppies, this post will serve to bring it back to page one, just below the stickies.

Secondarily, this post notes that Billtoo recently installed Tahrpup64 to a USB-stick using PUI. He runs it on a macmini. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 121#865121. By PUI, I think he is referring to Puppy Universal Installer which you'll find on every Pup: Menu>Setup>Puppy Installer.

The macmini boots using efi --mac's version of UEFI. TahrPup64's ISO does include those files needed to boot in "UEFI-mode". See http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 159#860159 for my definition of that phrase. But neither does the macmini AFAIK have anything similar to "Secure boot".

So it may be possible to install Pups via Puppy Universal Installer. But I would think on what were Window 8/8.1 --even if "upgraded" to Windows 10-- it would still be necessary to follow Steps 1 and 2 here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 159#858159

mikesLr

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Example of Ted Dog's Method: UEFI boot from USB-Stick

#20 Post by mikeslr »

Hi All,

Just to call your attention to Cat&Dog's successful use of Ted Dog's "Ready-Made" UEFI Boot-files, enabling FatDog701 to be booted from a USB-Stick.

Cat&Dog provides a Step-by-Step explanation of what was done, including modifications of Grub. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 706#865706

Note this method resulted in (what I referred to previously as) loop-booting FatDog701's ISO.

mikesLr

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