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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Windows 8, 8.1 and 10: How to Boot Puppy
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2011
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Mon 27 Jul 2015, 12:10    Post subject:  Windows 8, 8.1 and 10: How to Boot Puppy  

Hi All,

Edit: GENERAL HINT APPLICABLE TO ALL THREADS. Read the first page or so in order to become familiar with the circumstances being discussed. Then skip to the end of the thread to find out the latest information. Then work backwards from there, as necessary.

Edit March 7, 2017: The latest snafu and maybe a work-around -- http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=946430#946430

Edit: Nov 6,2016: Even if you decide to place your Puppy(s) on your hard-drive, I recommend that you give priority to booting from your USB-port, and place your Puppy bootloader on a USB-Stick. Plug in the stick to boot Puppy. Don't plug it in and boot Windows. Especially recommended if you do not have a Windows Recovery Disk.. More than one person has locked themselves out of Windows by messing with Windows booting system.

See, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=943608#943608. As Puppies can run from folders, the following menu entry should also work with recent Puppies:

menuentry "Start tahrpup" {
linux /tahrpup32/vmlinuz
initrd /tahrpup32/initrd.gz
}

Change tarhpu32 to reflect the Puppy of your choice.

Edit April 28, 2016: If you haven't already acquired a computer, you may want to start looking for one here: http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=hardware, Thanks, labbe5, for the link.

So, you have a computer on which Windows 8, 8.1 or 10 came installed as its operating system or "upgraded to 10" and now you want to try Puppy Linux.

Edit March 20, 2016 Step -2 Warning! Warning! If you're thinking about installing a Puppy to your hard-drive, study this post first: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=855229#855229 Thanks, jamesbond.

I strongly recommend that you make certain that the Puppy you are interested in, or any Puppy, can actually be booted on your computer via a USB-Stick before taking any risk, no matter how slight, which trying to install such Puppy to your hard-drive may involve.

Edit Feb 25, 2016: Step -1 icake has provided a list of Pups which could and couldn't boot via iMac's EFI. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=102158. Expect similar results trying to boot Pups from a PC employing UEFI. I recommend not spending a great amount of time trying to boot a Pup which probably can't be booted on your system. Rolling Eyes

Edit March 26, 2016: It may also help to check this thread for what did and didn't work: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=896093#896093

Edit Aug 12, 2015: Step 0. Ted Dog has developed "No-format" install for UEFI based machines Win8 & MacTel, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=97141, which also works with Windows 10. Even if you intend to try something else, I recommend that you first test your desired Pup via a "No format" install to a USB-Key/Stick. See also a couple posts on this thread beginning here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=861135#861135

Edit March 26, 2016: per recobayu, Yumi Multiboot USB Creator also works. See http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=896087#896087 and post following it for link to Yumi.

Edit April 1, 2016: jamesbond has called our attention to the following method, with clear instructions, for booting ANY Puppy via a USB-Stick, or at least attempting to: http://blog.puppylinux.com/?viewDetailed=00009

Edit: Feb 27, 2017: Thanks, mistfire, may be the quickest method for creating a Puppy CD: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=938720#938720

Step 1. You will have to turn-off Fast Startup/boot. Before doing anything else I strongly recommend searching the web for specifics regarding how to do that on your computer, model and current Windows system. The link below provides general instructions. Further research revealed that even among computers manufactured by Dell, the proper procedure differed from one model to another.

Fast Startup/boot actually is what is usually referred to as “hibernate”, except that it is automatic. That is, when you “shut down” Windows with Fast Startup/boot enabled, it doesn't shut down, only hibernates. Consequently when you bootup it automatically boots back into Windows. Cimarron posted the following link providing instructions for turning it off: http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/4189-fast-startup-turn-off-windows-10-a.html#option1, See also, http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-disable-or-enable-fast-startup-in-windows-8-1/.

You may also have to turn off Intel Smart Response Technology (ISRT)
https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/821007-how-to-install-linux-on-a-windows-machine-with-uefi-secure-boot


Edit Aug 11, 2015: Step 2. If you have a Windows 8/8.1 or 10 computer (or upgraded to Windows 10) you may be interested in booting Pups which have been built for them. If so, see http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=860159#860159 Otherwise,

The next problem you'll encounter is that as part of the above Windows' installation is a feature known as "Secure Boot". Secure Boot will prevent any operating system* from booting unless it is "signed" and Puppy Linux (except as noted in the post linked to above) has not paid Verisoft the fee it demands for that. Consequently, the first thing you have to do in order to try any Pup is to turn off "Secure Boot".

If you search you'll probably find other posts detailing how to turn off Secure Boot. But I thought this one was particularly informative. It consists of a step by step recipe for both Windows 8 and Window 8.1 with screen shots.

http://itsfoss.com/disable-uefi-secure-boot-in-windows-8/


See this post and the following for an important discussion about how to safely create a boot menu. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=922302#922302

Hope this helps.

Note to "The Regulars": As of the date of this post, the question of how to boot Puppy from a Windows 8/8.1 computer is among the most frequently asked. I have neither a Windows 8 nor 8.1 computer. If, in reviewing what I said above you spot any errors, please bring them to our attention. If you know of a different "How To" which you think is in anyway better, please provide a link to it.

Thanks.

mikesLr

* Secure Boot does not "only" prevent unsigned Operating Systems from being run. The rationale for its inclusion was to deter malware known as "root-kits" from running. Precluding "unsigned operating systems" was "just a necessary consequence of the added security".

That it is a "rationale" rather than a significant security advancement is clear from the fact that it not only restricts what operating systems will run, it also restricts what hardware components will run under them. And, of course, it only will prevent root-kits if the miscreants who create them have the decency not to retro-engine "signing" in order to created "signed root-kits" or otherwise evade the impediment. Deter does not mean prevent.

There was a furor among the Linux Community when "secure boot" was announced by Microsoft for Window 8. In response, Microsoft required computer manufacturers to include a mechanism for turning it off. This agreement seems to have been analogous to the German-Russian Non-Aggression Pact on the eve of World War II. Except in this instance, it provided the weaker opponent the opportunity for a graceful surrender with benefits.

As of this writing, it appears that there will not be a similar requirement imposed on manufacturers respecting Windows 10. Ubuntu and several other Linux distros which regularly make it to the top of Distro-Watch's list have purchased licenses.

Notably, Microsoft's market strategy has changed. Windows 10 is free. But its users must pay for "patches", "bug-fixes", "up-grades" such as those which may be needed to run future hardware. The economic model is not that of a seller-buyer, but rather of a landlord-tenant, where the tenant has to pay rent if, in the future, a flushing toilet is important.

The most lasting effects of "secure boot" will, therefore, probably be (a) the the absence of a "secure boot turn-off mechanism" by those computer manufacturers who also manufacture printers, routers, wifi-adapters and such; or where including an "off-switch" will increase production costs [as invariably, it must]; (b) sale of licenses by Verisoft to hardware manufacturers; (c) planned obsolescence of hardware; and (d) and consumer --95% of whom could care less-- locked into the resulting oligarchy.

Freedom is always relative to an environment. In Antartica, 200 miles from the coast, you are free to eat snow.

Welcome to the emerging Fascist States of America. You have the freedom to choose whose peon you are to be.
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Last edited by mikeslr on Sun 20 Aug 2017, 20:00; edited 26 times in total
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2011
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sat 01 Aug 2015, 11:31    Post subject: Correction and further comments  

Hi all,

In the above post I stated that microsoft sells the UEFI-secured boot licenses. It doesn't. Such licenses are sold by Verisoft. Unless Fedora cut a "special deal", the cost of a license was $99. http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2181774/red-hat-pay-verisign-sign-fedora-microsofts-uefi-secure-boot.

"Red Hat's Matthew Garrett said the Fedora project had considered a number of alternatives, including creating a catch-all Linux key, but that paying Verisign a one-off $99 fee for a key was the easiest and most pragmatic solution...

'Garrett also confirmed that all drivers shipped with Fedora will be signed but also rightly said that it can't sign 'out of tree' drivers. Fedora will also be signing all kernel modules and, Garrett said, "locking down certain aspects of kernel functionality.'"

Even if Puppy Linux were to acquire such license, I wonder whether our 'free for all" --experiment, woof-you-own, remaster, publish if you want-- approach to Linux could survive?

mikesLr
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2011
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Mon 03 Aug 2015, 10:31    Post subject: Secure Boot already hacked  

Hi All,

In my original post I suggested that the ostensible purpose of Secure Boot --deterrence of root-kits-- wasn't its real purpose; that it would only deter miscreants for so long as it would take them to somehow overcome the impediment.

Overcoming the impediment didn't take very long. https://www.hackinparis.com/node/270

http://blog.trendmicro.com/trendlabs-security-intelligence/hacking-team-uses-uefi-bios-rootkit-to-keep-rcs-9-agent-in-target-systems/

I didn't attend CanSecWest Vancouver 2015. But apparently Corey Kallenberg and Xeno Kovah, How many million BIOSes would you like to infect? https://cansecwest.com/speakers.html believe:

"...in part due to the widespread adoption of UEFI, a framework that makes it easier for the vendors along the manufacturing chain to add modules and tinker with the code. That’s proven useful for the good guys, but also made it simpler for researchers to inspect the BIOS, find holes and create tools that find problems, allowing Kallenberg and Kovah to show off exploits across different PCs. In the demo to FORBES, an HP PC was used to carry out an attack on an ASUS machine. Kovah claimed that in tests across different PCs, he was able to find and exploit BIOS vulnerabilities across 80 per cent of machines he had access to and he could find flaws in the remaining 10 per cent.

“There are protections in place that are supposed to prevent you from flashing the BIOS and we’ve essentially automated a way to find vulnerabilities in this process to allow us to bypass them. It turns out bypassing the protections is pretty easy as well,” added Kallenberg. http://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/03/18/hacking-tails-with-rootkits/

In short, but unspoken, Microsoft's insistence on standardizing UEFI enables the automation of the process of seeking vulnerabilities in the standardized UEFI.

Unfortunately, those in computer technology don't take the time to study evolutionary biology where the game of "attack and defend" has been played for about 4.5 billion years, nor even the more recent history of the Industrialization of Agriculture. Both support the following rule: Reduction of the gene-pool increases the probability of infections reaching pandemic proportions and species extinction.

or just google "hack uefi".

mikesLr

Last edited by mikeslr on Mon 03 Aug 2015, 12:19; edited 2 times in total
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8Geee


Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 1264
Location: N.E. USA

PostPosted: Mon 03 Aug 2015, 10:47    Post subject:  

Hmmm, respondants seem to claim...
1.) Physical access
2.) Use of older UEFI BIOS
3.) ntfs filesystem
4.) Intel CPU
5.) NO password lock of the BIOS

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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2011
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 06 Aug 2015, 02:28    Post subject: Windows 10 -- Paying rent so you can flush your toilet  

Hi All,

In my original post I suggested that Microsofts Marketing strategy had changed. That its economic model "is not that of a seller-buyer, but rather of a landlord-tenant, where the tenant has to pay rent if, in the future, a flushing toilet is important."

If you thought this was hyperbole, think again: http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/08/05/windows-10-charging/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+forbes%2FeHrm+%28Forbes+-+Business%29

mikesLr
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mikeslr


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PostPosted: Tue 11 Aug 2015, 18:01    Post subject: Pups built for Windows 8/8.1 & 10 Computer with Secure Boot  

The term UEFI means Unified Extensible Firmware Interface. As used hereafter, the term “UEFI-mode” means that a computer employing UEFI can recognize a Pup as a valid operating system without the user first having to go into the computer's settings and turn-off/disable “Secure-boot”. It does not, however, necessarily mean that some computer settings, such as Fast-boot/startup, might not have to be turned-off. See the instruction links below for specifics.

It's safe to skip down to the section beginning with the bolded Fatdog64 if at this time you're not concerned with the “Whys” or their ramifications.

I do not have a computer which uses UEFI, let alone one which limits what operating systems will boot. This post consists of information I've found, with links, in the hope that it will assist those having such computers to overcome the problems they face. Please do not hesitate to correct any misinformation it contains or provide information and links you think may be helpful.

UEFI is a Bios replacement. Like Bios, it is on a chip on a computer's motherboard and is the first thing which boots when you turn your computer on. In and of itself, UEFI does not present a problem to Puppy Linux. Bios, after booting, will pass on the operation of the computer to either an operating system or a boot-loader. UEFI, on the other hand, in order to receive Microsoft's certification, contains a routine known as “Secure Boot”. Secure-boot, when enabled, will prevent any operating system (and any hardware) from being recognized as valid if that OS or hardware does not present a valid signature issued by Verisoft.

With Windows 10, Microsoft no longer requires that computer manufactures include in the Secure-boot module a mechanism to turn it off/disable it. If you have such a computer, the only way to run an operating system which does not present a valid signature is to replace your motherboard or, at least, replace/flash the UEFI chip. I don't know if you have a Windows 7, 8, 8.1 computer and upgraded to Windows 10 such upgrade involves merely installing a new operating system to your hard-drive, or also entails “flashing” the UEFI-chip on the motherboard so that it will only contains Windows 10 instructions. If the former, you should be able to still turn off Secure-boot. If the latter, well the gift of the “Trojan Horse” comes to mind.

As I've suggested elsewhere, Secure-boot has more to do with securing Microsoft's market share than securing your computer against malware.

If your computer permits you to turn off Secure-boot, you may want to do so in order to run even those Pups which lack a “valid signature”. If so, see http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=858159#858159

Alternatively, it may suit your purpose to only employ those Pups which which can boot in UEFI-mode.

Whether any Pup will provide satisfactory results on your computer is an entirely different question. To provide satisfactory results requires that an operating system include the firmware and hardware drivers that interface with your hardware. While Linux in general, and Puppy in particular, strives to include drivers for all hardware, the hardware combinations found in computers manufactured during the last five years alone runs into the hundreds of thousands.

FYI, the following Pups are "amphibians": They will boot in UEFI-mode, and in Bios-Mbr mode.

Fatdog64:

On 30 December 2012, jamesbond and kirk published Fatdog64 with UEFI support, Test build (31 December 2012). http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=674431&sid=a3ded5e3ef3addca6205ffada3d4dffd#674431 This was shortly after the Linux community's reaction to Windows 8 with UEFI and its Secure-boot; circumstances I believe they referred to in writing, ”Now that the apocalypse hullaballo is over us, it's time to look forward to the future.”

One path in that future is to enable Pups to boot under UEFI without disabling Secure-boot. To do that requires that operating systems present to Secure-boot a valid “signature”. Jamesbond and Kirk paid the required fee to obtain a signature from Verisoft, and researched and developed the tools Fatdog64 required to utilize it.

I don't think the Puppy Community has ever properly expressed their gratitude. As far as I know, every Pup which is able to boot in UEFI-mode employs not only the applications jamesbond and kirk developed, but uses the signature they purchased. Even though at the present time I don't have a computer which requires it, thank you jamesbond and kirk. Who knows what the future may bring?

As far as I can tell, with the exceptions of FatDog64-700 and FatDog64-701, every Pup which has been reported as being able to boot in “UEFI-mode” is, in substantial part, built via woof using Slackware binaries. The two exceptions are Pups Jamesbond and Kirk, themselves, published using binaries they built using Linux-from-Scratch. Consequently, while it appears that a signature has sufficient flexibility to be employed by Pups built in different ways, having different kernels, and containing different firmware and drivers, whether that flexibility is sufficient to support all Pups remains to be seen. [That flexibility also supports my contention that “Secure-boot” has less to do with security than solidifying Microsoft's market share].

Although Test build (31 December 2012) is no longer available, I recommend reading the one page thread concerning it. That thread contains information regarding how the hard-drive of Windows UEFI computers are structured which may be of value if you are considering running your Pup from such hard-drive.

The ISOs of Fatdog64's can be found at http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/iso/ and mirror sites. Mirror sites are usually identified in the first couple posts of any Fatdog64 thread. I would expect that any Fatdog64 ISO published after 30 December 2012 contains the files necessary to support booting in UEFI-mode.

You'll find Jamesbond and kirk instructions regarding on how to boot Fatdog64 with UEFI and secure boot enabled here: http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/faqs/secure-boot.html

Lighthouse:
On 29 June 2013, Tazoc published Lighthouse 64-602 Beta2 with GIMP-2.8.4 (6-29-2013). It is available from here: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=710846&sid=5fc97ae170947bd3dcaf0b9dda893e74#710846. If you're unfamiliar with Lighthouse, be sure to read the Mariner.ISO link on that page.

Tazoc's instructions for hard-drive installs begin here, http://www.lhpup.org/help/faqs/uefi-harddrive.html and for USB-Key install here, http://lhpup.org/help/faqs/uefi-flashdrive.html

The computer you seek to install a Pup on may be different from either those Tazoc or jamesbond and kirk used in developing their respective instructions. I recommend that you be familiar with all such instructions without regard to which Pup you seek to use. If possible, print the instructions.

JustLightHouse:

While Lighthouse 64-601 Beta2 is only slightly more than two years old, Linux has continued to evolve. New kernels --with associated firmware and drivers to handle new hardware and overcome discovered problems, and to meet the challenges of new software-- have been created. However, the innovations Tazoc built into Lighthouse were far ahead of the time. Lighthouse remains a good choice.

In tribute to Tazoc, Dry Falls undertook to update Lighthouse, bringing to it kernel updates and ability to make use of application developments. His efforts attracted the masterful assistance of stemsee when it was most needed.

In order to run JustLightHouse, as it was being developed, I decompressed several JustLightHouse ISOs. Each contained an efiboot.img. This leads me to believe that each has been built to boot in UEFI-mode. The most recent JustLightHouse (JustLightHouse Final) can be found here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=849991&sid=642e2469cd9416c2ff8b4896cd283936#849991

Development and earlier versions can be found on this thread: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=822440&sid=04380abf39b77a3394c5844700f6f1a9#822440. Note that the first post on the JustLightHouse Final thread indicates that JL64-602f and JL64-603g have been re-released.

JustLightHouse, like Lighthouse, is a very complete system with many 'Bells and Whistles'. I recommend that you read through both threads and Tazoc's Webpage on Mariner, to familiarize yourself with how the versions can be customized and decide for yourself what best meets your objectives.

LxPup64:

After peebee published LxPup64, Ted Dog provided modifications which enabled it to boot in UEFI-Mode. Peebee included those modifications in LxPup64-14.12.02, available from here, http://sourceforge.net/projects/lxpup/files/Other/LxPup64/LxPup64-14.12.02-hybrid.iso/download and in LxPup64-15.05.01-hybrid.iso which you can obtain here: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=814840#814840.

LxPup64 is a derivative of Slacko64 Alpha (Slacko64-5.9.1) produced by 01micko but with kernel 4.0.2 produced by stemsee, and using the Porteus-3.0.1 64bit LXDE module, but with updated components: OpenBox, PCManFM + libfm, LxPanel, LxAppearance from pkgs.org.

As mentioned previously, to run a Pup even in UEFI-mode you may still have to turn-off Fast Startup/boot. Cimarron posted the following link providing instructions: http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/4189-fast-startup-turn-off-windows-10-a.html#option1, See also, http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-disable-or-enable-fast-startup-in-windows-8-1/,

Similarly, it may also be necessary to disable Intel Smart Response Technology (ISRT) --whatever the hell that is. To do so, see https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/821007-how-to-install-linux-on-a-windows-machine-with-uefi-secure-boot

Compatibility of Extra Packages Among 64-bit Pups: Although the following advice by Dry Fall was given with respect to JustLightHouse, it provides a good “rule of thumb” respecting the general compatibility of SFSes among the 64-bit Pups:

“Use packages built for this distro first. The fatdog distro sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. That is the 600 series, which is fairly compatible but not maintained. Better sometimes to just go to fd's ftp://ibiblio site and download from there. Most everything at lhp.org still works. The slackware distros install pretty well but gslapt does it better.

Gslapt uses /var/log/packages to determine what's already installed and what's not and to determine dependencies. At this point, that is the more complete directory. PPM reads woof-installed-packages and the builtin_files directory to assemble its 'layers' file. It errors a bit more but generally does a pretty good job. I've had some luck with puppy noarch through ppm.” http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=860114#860114.

Noarch = No architecture. To a large extent pets in the Noarch repository are bash-scripts. Bash is Puppy's builtin programming language. Bash-scripts do not add either libraries or binaries to an operating system. Rather, they merely tie together the files already on your system actualizing potential which, but for the bash-script, might otherwise be absent.

If you're new to Puppy, you may not know the difference between pets and SFSes. Pets are installed to your SaveFile/Folder. Installing a pet can overwrite the files needed by other applications, breaking them. Uninstalling them removes their files, but does not reinstall the files they overwrote. SFSes are not installed. They are more like Windows' portable applications. You load and unload SFSes as and when you need them. While loaded, their files may take precedence breaking applications which depended on the older files. Those files, however, are still there and will become active again if the problem SFS is unloaded. Consequently, it is safe to try any SFS even if you're uncertain whether it is compatible.

If you discover other Pups which can boot in UEFI-mode, please post to this thread with any information you think can help others.

mikesLr

Last edited by mikeslr on Thu 27 Aug 2015, 11:44; edited 1 time in total
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mikeslr


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PostPosted: Wed 19 Aug 2015, 22:35    Post subject: Questions about No-format install for UEFI based machines
Subject description: and my final thoughts for now
 

Hi All,

I started this thread on July 27, 2015. It is now 23 days later and its been viewed 632 times. I suspect there's some interest in the topic. If you've looked at the Beginners Help Subforum during that time, you may have noticed that this thread started near the top of the thread, just below the "stickies", and that just before I entered this post the thread had slid down so that it was then on the second page and not observable by anyone just clicking on the Beginners Help Subforum.

That's the way the forum works. It considers neither general interest nor frequency of views in a thread's placement: only how current the interest is as measured by the latest "reply". As it should. I am certain that there were many fine posts 5 years ago which attracted a great deal of attention to the then current problems. But by today their content may no longer be relevant.

As I mentioned several times in previous posts, I do not have a computer which requires or even permits UEFI booting.

I was particularly interested in exploring some possibilities of using Ted Dogs “No-format install for UEFI based machines”. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=97141 Unless I did something wrong, his instructions do not create a USB-Key which will boot from a computer employing Bios rather than UEFI.

Among the areas I was interested in exploring were:

One of the Grub menu listing Ted Dog provided as an example was

}
menuentry "Start Fatdog64-700b2.iso -BETA" {
loopback loop0 (hd0,msdos1)/Fatdog64-700b2.iso
linux (loop0)/vmlinuz
initrd (loop0)/initrd
}

As I understand this, it would enable Fatdog64-700b2 to be booted without having to mount the ISO and copy its contents to the device from which it was to be booted. Installing Ted Dog’s setup to a USB-Stick and copying the suggested ISO to such stick would be an excellent way to test it without spending a great deal of time only to find out that your computer wouldn’t support that Pup, or that that Pup wouldn’t run the applications you need. I would think most Fatdog64‘s, and several other 64-bit Pups could be tested that way.

But, note that the second line specifies the location “hd0,msdos1“ -- how was that determined? Edit: See Cat&Dog's post: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=865706#865706

Once Fatdog64-700b2 booted to desktop, you would --at a minimum-- want to set up access to the internet. How would you make such setting persistent? Pup’s normal method is to create a SaveFile at shut down. Does “loop-booting” permits such creation? And if so, can a ‘loop-booted’ Pup even make use of a SaveFile? or are the advantages of Pup “layered file system” --expanding the operating system by installing pets and loading SFSes--entirely lost when ‘loop-booting’ is used? Edit: Yes to both questions. See Cat&Dog's post: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=865738#865738

Later in the thread, Ted Dog provides this Grub menu example:

menuentry "Start LxPup64" {
linux (hd0,msdos1)/LxPup64/vmlinuz
initrd (hd0,msdos1)/LxPup64/initrd.gz
}

The argument “/LxPup64“ indicates to me that the contents of LxPup64‘s ISO have been copied to a folder named LxPup64. Consequently, I would assume that this supports the traditional way of booting a Pup, that SaveFile/(Folders?) could be created and used, non-builtin applications could be installed, and application SFSes could be loaded via bootmanager or SFS-Load.

As I understand it, however, Ted Dog’s setup requires that the folder containing vmlinux and initrd.gz (and I would assume other SFSes included in the ISO such as pup_xxx, adrv and zdrv) would have to be on a Fat32 formatted partition. While Pups can be run from a Fat32 partition, SaveFolder’s can only be used if they are located on a Linux formatted partition. And even placing a SaveFile on a Linux formatted partition provides advantages. Among these are (a) as I recall, remastering requires a Linux formatted partition or a SaveFile with free space at least 3 times the anticipated size of the ISO to be created; (b) compiling applications has similar requirements; and (c) you can’t symlink to files on other than a Linux partition.

I’ve used the following procedure on Bios computer and wondered if might work on UEFI computers: Boot into a different Pup and plug in a, say 8 Gb USB-Key formatted Fat32 under windows with a Pup whose “boot” files are on that partition. Run gparted and re-size the Fat32 partition to >unassigned >New partition > Linux Ext3 of about 4 Gb, depending on how much space was in use on the Fat32 partition and what your future needs --test other ISO? etc-- might be. Then boot into the Pup on the USB-Key and at shutdown, select the Linux Ext3 partition as the location for the SaveFile.

Ted Dog’s Grub menu examples include only one 32-bit Pup, the relatively recent unicorn-6.2.1.91.iso, and that only ran via ‘loop-booting’ with the apparent caution, “VERY SLOW BOOT". Is this taking place under Secure-boot and utilizing the signature acquired for FatDog? If not, how is it being done? Can other 32-bit Pups be run? Or are those Pups which provides Puppy users the largest assortment of applications, such as Carolina, Lucid-revitalized and perhaps in the future Tahrpup, not going to be of any value to those running UEFI computers?

When using Ted Dog's No-format install to a USB-Key, does the key's boot flag have to be set as active?

Rufus,https://rufus.akeo.ie/ can be used on either a Bios or a UEFI computer to create a bootable USB-Key. I understand, however, that if used from a Bios computer it will not result in a USB-key bootable from an UEFI computer. Does it also have the opposite limitation? If it's run on a UEFI computer, will the USB-Key be bootable from Bios computers?

Is it possible to edit the files Rufus places on the USB-key so as to create a Multi-boot USB-Key?

I can’t explore these questions. Nor can I explore other questions I posed on this thread. But perhaps you can? Or perhaps you have other questions?

If this thread has been helpful and you think it can help others, it’s up to you to keep it from being buried.

mikesLr

Last edited by mikeslr on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 16:04; edited 2 times in total
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disciple

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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug 2015, 05:26    Post subject:  

FWIW the new "LICK" windows based installer worked fine on my wife's machine (running Windows 10) - the only thing I saw that could be improved is it could tell you that you need to sort out your "bios" boot options.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2011
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:28    Post subject: LICK - Puppy Installer for Windows  

Hi disciple,

Glad to hear that. Those interested in trying LICK will find the download link here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=856067#856067.

Reading this thread and applying self-analysis --something I'm prone to do with my excess of spare time-- it seems I exhibit all too human characteristics when I stumble upon a problem. First reaction, "The Sky is Falling" -- primitive "flight or fight" and being an idealist I'm almost invariably drawn to the latter. Second reaction --sound the alarm. Third reaction -- look for rational solutions.

Looking for rational solutions I was pleased to find that long before I even knew there was a problem jamesbond and kirk's had followed the practical approach (acquire the necessary signature) and that noryb009 --who had already been working on a simplified method of installing Puppies from Windows-- had expanded his efforts to provide for installation under Windows 8/8.1.

I take it that your wife's computer had been a Windows 7 or 8/8.1 and has been upgraded to 10. If so, this answers one of the questions I had about such upgrade: whether it involves only an operating system upgrade or whether it included flashing the UEFI chip to overwrite the instructions included in 8/8.1 that enabled secure boot to be turned off.
You indicated "you need to sort out your "bios" boot options" and, although I didn't read thru the entire Window Installer thread, these instructions found at LICK's download site still seem to be necessary:

"Before installing any PLIC* installer on Windows 8, please make sure you have:
1) disabled fast boot
2) disabled secure boot
3) changed UEFI to legacy mode

You can find detailed instructions on how to do each online."

* PLIC was the name noryb009 gave LICK's precursor.

Fortunately, it seems flashing the UEFI chip wasn't included. [Good thing Microsoft didn't hire me. Laughing ]

BUT SEE POSTSCRIPT.

True Windows 10 computers are still rare, and it will probably take another 4 or 5 years before their owners, while looking for a better operating system, stumble upon Puppy. So I guess we have some time to prepare for that.


mikesLr

POSTSCRIPT: Reading the Windows Installer thread revealed that with the publication of LICK "it supports Windows NT - 8.1, including UEFI and secure boot...
Known bugs:
- secure boot isn't working - DONE
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=851464#851464

And now supports Windows 10. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=856067#856067

So --if I've got this correctly-- it is only necessary to turn off fast boot. And if I understand "fast boot" correctly, its a procedure which actually puts Windows into "hibernate" when Shutdown was selected and, as such, prevents any alternate OS install and modification of loading procedures as "Startup" immediately takes the computer out of hibernate and into Windows.

Last edited by mikeslr on Fri 21 Aug 2015, 11:56; edited 3 times in total
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Ted Dog


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Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug 2015, 14:31    Post subject:  

no boot flag or such needed for efi boot. just a fat like partion first on boot drive. Yes if rufus is on a fat like filesystem the EFI files from .zip will boot either or bios or efi based on machine. However Macs will refuse to boot such a setup. Either BIOS or EFI not BOTH just for Macs. That is why DDing a Fatdog64 ISO over to USB will not boot macs but work great on PCs Exclamation It has 3 different boot methods built in.
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disciple

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Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug 2015, 15:17    Post subject:  

TD, you're essentially talking about the situation where puppy is on his own partition, right?
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Ted Dog


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PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug 2015, 16:28    Post subject:  

LICK is an awesome find for Developers and those of us who use multiple puppylinux spins and a limited few OTHERS but my Grub4EFI was for true beginners nothing to install in windows nothing to learn just copy stuff to run of the mill fresh from the store no changes needed USB flashdrive and boot.
Idea there are some limited choices in puppylinux world that needed copy only to run. From there we freed them from WindowsHell (tm).
Once free then use same flashdrive to frugal install most rest of puppylinux spins and many others.
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Ted Dog


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Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug 2015, 16:39    Post subject:  

disciple wrote:
TD, you're essentially talking about the situation where puppy is on his own partition, right?

No its a EFI boot thing, most windows boxes I have used can and will check all fat type for the key folder EFI in the root, but EFI specs (old) check the first. So the first drive with EFI folder located first is the one that should be selected to boot from.
GRUB is GRUB its the full flavored version and can be configure to boot any one anywhere. I have mine (usbflash with grub4efi) boot directly into my fatdog64 on my main harddrive not messing with harddrives boot system but overriding it due to boot priorities listed above. Oh so maybe rethinking your statements, yes I do boot puppy in its own partition on the harddrive shared with Windows8.1 and another with Windows10TechRev. using these method.
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Ted Dog


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Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Thu 20 Aug 2015, 17:07    Post subject:  

Here is an example where I boot from an Grub4EFI flashdrive and used a folder (inside of April7 full install on harddrive shared with win8.1 ) folder is called /da

Code:

menuentry "Start Fatdog64-700.iso  directA7da" {
loopback loop0  /Fatdog64-700.iso
linux (loop0)/vmlinuz  rootfstype=ramfs savefile=direct:device:sda7:/da dofsck waitdev=4
initrd (loop0)/initrd


posting from it now Wink
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2011
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:24    Post subject: Slow loading of SaveFile on an ntfs partition-- solutions  

Hi all,

The purpose of this thread being to assist newbies in overcoming problems concerning Pups, I figured this was as good a place as any to mention a problem (posted on the Windows Installer thread) Snail discovered with Slacko 5.7 non-pae , and the solutions proposed. After suggestions by rcrsn51, snail posted "With the ext2 savefile the Xstep in boot up takes less than 20 seconds, ext3 takes about 5minutes 20secs and ext4 just over 6 minutes." http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=817808#817808
rcrsn51 explained, . "It has to do with the version of the ntfs-3g driver that was used in Slacko57 nonPAE. Because your savefile is in an NTFS partition, ntfs-3g is in play, and it bogs down when working with journaled filesystems." http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=817852#817852,

Alternate analysis and possible solutions were provided by SFR: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=817821#817821

The Take-Away: On a computer manufactured in the last 5 years it shouldn't be necessary to run non-pae Pups. So the easiest solutions may be, don't. Alternatively, if your SaveFile takes a long time to load, consider using a different Pup.
Second easiest, as I've previously suggested, even if a Pup's boot files may have to be on an ntfs partition, I think it preferable, if possible, to create a Linux Ext3 partition to hold SaveFiles.

Third easiest solution for newbies specify Linux Ext2 as format for SaveFiles but, noting mikeb's warning that Linux Ext2 tends to corrupt quicker than Ext3 or 4, frequently backup your SaveFile.

Fourth Solution: I can't easily locate it, but there's a post somewhere on the forum explaining how to remove "journalizing" from Ext4 partitions.

mikesLr

Last edited by mikeslr on Tue 29 Sep 2015, 16:09; edited 1 time in total
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