Download, install and USB is confusing...

[Salty-san]

Fossil, I appreciate the eagerness to be methodical and orderly here, but I am pretty sure I made it clear I have more machines to work with here, and yes I have 2 with Windows, and other Linux pen drives. I could also try some CDs. For that matter I mentioned Rufus, which only works in Windows to begin with. :p

Implied assumptions lead to incorrect advice. If you have more computers to work with, why attempt all this palaver with what appears to be a nearly non-functional POS? And then you want to give it to someone - as an alternative to Windows? That will be much appreciated! Stroll on. If you can't get the machine to function even with a 50 Meg distro, just using Wary will prove to be a challenge. Good luck with that!

Well ...No need to get defensive. I was only making it clear what I wanted in the first place, and my exact scenario detailed, so how is it my fault you wanted to help with something else perhaps?

Inbefore you got very pedantic with the process, I made it pretty clear I have several machines and that my goal is to learn Puppy too in the long term, or at least use it more, but that for now I chose to focus on this device, especially since this was an extension of a topic on another forum and I met someone from back there here. I also made it clear why this machine: mostly for fun and curiousity, but if it proves useful all the better.

It seems mikeslr is pretty on point here and his advice to me is double edged and grounded in experience within the community? ;p...People like to play games and some have a shall we say religious inclination towards their preferences, especially in the software realm, or anything to do with technical skill for that matter. I can accept that...

I can even get that a lot about software and OS and comp arrangement can become about selling and comparing lifestyles or habbits, i.e. you want to show me everything great about Puppy and so on so I can fully enjoy it and all sorts of other no doubt good intentions.

But what I find troubling is the point where it's more about the converting than the technical facts...Especially, what is the problem in that I chose a bad/old comp? This mentality of waste is something that a lot of people in the world, and I especially don't have, or at least try not to. Why throw or scrap something that can still be useful, at least until fully proven otherwise? A lot of people don't even have the luxury of affording a computer, or wouldn't know how to make it work, and even if it just sits here, at least it still serves its intended purpose and I learned to solve a problem.

Sorry but I can't agree with you on this, and as it turns out it's probably not even as big of a piece of shit as I thought...

Assuming that your objective is to get your old computer to boot to desktop, and knowing that its CD-player for whatever reason hasn't worked, I would again suggest that you use LinuxLiveUSB Creator to burn an ISO to a USB-Key. I understand that you would rather use some other method.

We have people on the forum who prefer never to use “google

[Salty-san]

Barebones are Pups from which some or all applications not essential to booting to desktop have been stripped in order to reduce the amount of RAM required to boot to desktop. The user can later install just those applications he or she wants, or better still, use SFSes which can be loaded and unloaded on the fly.

I would try rufwoof's Wary Barebone's version first. You'll find the link to the ISO here: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 518#871518. This may be the most recent Barebones. IIRC, rufwoof included dbus in the ISO. Some newer versions of web-browsers require it.

Don't hesitate to let us know how far you've progressed when you've tried them. But, if your objective really isn't to find out how far you can go in getting your old computer working, chalk this exchange up as a win: we're not smart enough to help you.

mikesLr

Just wanted to say, thank you so much for the extra thorough suggestion, I think something even fancier would have worked perhaps and we could have gotten to Barebones eventually, but nice to have it all in one single post so I don't have to scroll around and such. You really didn't have to go so far, but I am glad you did.

Anyway, I avoided posting anything more until I actually did and tried something, which took time, I had other stuff to do, this is just a side-side-project. Wanted to look inside the computer, clean it and so on to make sure, or else I'd just be wasting replies on a pretty stuff forum already...

So, results so far...I went straight to Barebones 431 and to work my way up from it. It failed with UNetbootin on all machines, worked with LinuxLiveUSB and booted straight into it on this machine, no problem. On Xorg with 1024xsomething resolution too.

I could also Mount the HDD and potentially start the install. I stopped because it recommended I switch to .ext formatting, but I notice there is no GParted in this version? So I'll do that separately as before and then I want to install Barebones, to free up the USB and set the machine up until I figure out how to upgrade it more.

As for the computer, just wanted to clear some stuff up...

It's old, but it's not fucked up. I also forgot to mention it hasn't actually been used much, easily in years, so it's used but not abused. This became more aparent as I looked inside it...It's all pretty shiny and spiffy still, almost no dust at all, could be mistaken for brand new if you bought it back then, circuitry all seems fine and nothing out of place or moving strangely.

There is one of those big thin and broad cables connecting all the drives with the motherboard. CDROM and HDD are both on the same one basically, floppy on a different one. I tried to use a different such cable from the CDROM to connect to the motherboard but then it couldn't show up in BIOS, nor did it even receive power to open it up. So whatever is causing the boot fail from CD is either really tiny or the CDROM is just busted.

I did think it was weird that it can't boot into stuff, and that old Windows based boots work and Linux ones do not. I mean it had XP on it at some point for sure, so performance wise it's not that bad...There just seem to be querky technical details regarding booting somehow, but at least I can just work with an USB.


So from now on I guess all further work can be done from within Puppy, to further boost it up and to get more info.

[s243a]

I did think it was weird that it can't boot into stuff, and that old Windows based boots work and Linux ones do not. I mean it had XP on it at some point for sure, so performance wise it's not that bad...There just seem to be querky technical details regarding booting somehow, but at least I can just work with an USB.


So from now on I guess all further work can be done from within Puppy, to further boost it up and to get more info.

I'm going to assume that something is wrong with he CD drive. However, one thing that can cause problems with booting from a CD drive with a PCI connection is getting the master and slave correct.
http://www.pearltrees.com/s243a/pci-mas ... id12513625

There should be jumpers on the back of the CD drive that you can change the master slave setting of the drive.

[s243a]

I did think it was weird that it can't boot into stuff, and that old Windows based boots work and Linux ones do not. I mean it had XP on it at some point for sure, so performance wise it's not that bad...There just seem to be querky technical details regarding booting somehow, but at least I can just work with an USB.


So from now on I guess all further work can be done from within Puppy, to further boost it up and to get more info.

I'm going to assume that something is wrong with he CD drive. However, one thing that can cause problems with booting from a CD drive with a PCI connection is getting the master and slave correct.
http://www.pearltrees.com/s243a/pci-mas ... id12513625

There should be jumpers on the back of the CD drive that you can use to change the master slave setting of the drive.

[Salty-san]

Well I will look into it more but I honestly don't care much for CDs nowadays, its too cumbersome and wasteful; USB seems to work fine so until that is no longer low-tech enough...

I wanted to quick question here if someone sees it in time. As I set up to do the install, I am reformatting the HDD, I assume I should do it as .ext3 instead of 4 since it's lower-tech? there is also ext2, hmm. I will also have about 2GB of swap space.

[mikeslr]

Hi Salty-san,

Someone with more technical expertise may correct me, but I'd format to Linux Ext3 or a combination of Linux Ext3 and Fat32 for the following reasons:

You'll probably be trying out some of the Pups which were created before Ext4 and consequently won't have modules (libraries? whatever?) to recognize Ext4 partitions.

Per mikeb, who knows a lot more about Linux than I -- a hell of a lot more-- Ext2 partitions are more prone to corruption than Ext3.

Another possibility, however, is Fat32. Ext3 is journalized, which --if I understand correctly-- results in more frequent writings. Fat32 is not. It is generally recommended that Ext2 or Fat32 be used for USB-Keys to extend their life by reducing "writes-to". But Fat32 can't support some Linux operations, such as Remastering Pups, symlinking to external files and folders, or compiling. One workaround is to use a Frugal install with a large enough SaveFile --which are blocks of storage always Linux formatted.

But what I do with a large enough USB-drive is format part of it as Linux Ext3 --to support Linux operations-- and part of it as Fat32 to store data files.

With your old hard-drive, you might consider treating it as potentially "dodgy" and do the same.

mikesLr

P.S. Glad you took my digression in stride.

P.P.S. Just remembered that you will probably be using a Full rather than Frugal Install. Full Installs place fewer demands on CPU and RAM. Still, a combo of Ext3 and Fat32 Partitions may present the best choice. Storing data, and especially anything important on the second (Fat32) partition will make data recovery easier should there be a problem with the first partition holding the operating system.

[bigpup]

Just to add.
Full installs can only be done on a Linux (ext2, 3, or 4) formatted partition.

Yes. If you are using older versions of Puppy. Do not use ext 4 format.
Because of the reasons stated by mikeslr.

[6502coder]

Just to make the point that a standard Puppy *can* run on very little hardware by today's standards.

A) I have a former Win95 laptop: Pentium II, 233 Mhz, 4 GB hard drive, 96 MB RAM. It dual-boots Win95 and Puppy 4.1.2 Retro (frugal install). I use the Puppy side all the time. Of course, not being a masochist, I don't even try to browse the Internet with it, not with that primitive motherboard graphics and 96 MB RAM. But for offline productivity applications, it is just fine. And I do use a browser -- to tinker with client-side-only Javascript programming.

B) I also have a former Win98 laptop: Pentium III, 333 Mhz, 20 GB hard drive, 192 MB RAM. It runs Wary 5.1.4.1 just fine (frugal install), and while Internet browsing is slow, it works.

These versions of Puppy I'm running aren't "barebones" or cut-down customizations. They're standard, mainline Puppies. Both laptops are far older and more "crippled" than what you've got. So if you can't get a Puppy to run, it ain't Puppy's fault.

[Salty-san]

Wow I didnt even post the followup that I wanted after I completed the install. Ok so I had to move stuff around and space was an issue so I didn't work on the comp for a month but I did install then...Let me try and remember...

I did it two or three times...The first time was before the advice on how to do 2 partitions. So I did like EXT2 I think and just on the full drive. Now what was interesting about the install then is that it gave me a lot of options and advices and so on, including the one between the Full and Frugal. But on my next tries the install dialogue was completely different and with less options so I thought that was pretty weird...

I assume that this is because I did not set my one partition with a boot flag in G Parted, its like the only noticeable difference. And its a shame because that first install type seemed to offer more options.

Anyway, I figure it works so I reformated, and tried to do 2 partitions. Seemed to work ok-ish but for a reason I will get into shortly decided to redo it with just one partition like the first time, to make sure it is full install and to see if I can get the more options install that way, but I did set a boot flag in GParted this time so it was the same type of install...

I am pretty sure its a full install. I even have a personal save file I made...

But there seems to be a fatal flaw. I can't open desktop icons or some software installed on it like at all, neither double click nor open. This is true in both live and after the install...I don't know what to make of it ;/.

So I have this version installed, we can do whatever else is needed for information gathering or quality of life suggestions now, but I want to get back to testing higher grade versions so what comp performance info did you guys need?

[bigpup]

I am pretty sure its a full install. I even have a personal save file I made...

Full installs do not use save files.
Frugal installs use save files.

But there seems to be a fatal flaw. I can't open desktop icons or some software installed on it like at all, neither double click nor open. This is true in both live and after the install...I don't know what to make of it ;/.

This usually indicates you just did not get a good install and you need to redo it.
However, if it did work with the live Puppy and now it does not.
That indicates hardware going bad problems.

[Salty-san]

Hmm, at least that does confirm my suspicions about the installer. So it seems it wasnt full after all. Idk what happened after the first time but I simply couldn't reach any Full vs. Frugal type option, it had a lot fewer steps. Well I may try a few more times...

Yeah double clicking and trying to Open stuff also doesn't work in live on the USB stick so this...proves it's not hardware? ;/...

I may try again with this same one but maybe will just try to upgrade now that maybe machine can handle these Pups.

These versions of Puppy I'm running aren't "barebones" or cut-down customizations. They're standard, mainline Puppies. Both laptops are far older and more "crippled" than what you've got. So if you can't get a Puppy to run, it ain't Puppy's fault.

Yeah thanks for the input, this motivates me even more to just try something solid and get this comp stable. I may have incrementally tried other barebones and such but may just try a few higher grade ones now.

[bigpup]

Puppy by default is setup to single left mouse button click to execute.

So if you go to an icon on the desktop and single click on it.
What happens?