T.O.P.L.E.S.S. Version 1.0.1 - now available !!!

[LazY Puppy]

Hi.

Tonight, Februar 8th of 2016, 02:29 German Time, I had decided to discontinue T.O.P.L.E.S.S.. That is expanded also for all my other works in Puppy Linux. Please, feel free to grab what you need, modify it and/or re-publish new versions - or just drop it.

Main reasons:

1. Obviously I'm not able to give any useful support to people trying my software.
2. Obviously my English knowledge is not well enough prepared to do such jobs (or to continue any of them).
3. Obviously most people in this forum (and probably also outside the forum) seems not to understand what I'm creating.
4. Obviously my available Time doing Puppy Linux in the public is now running out.
5. Obviously I can achieve much more when I'm developing in DE only.
6. Obviously there is mostly just a dead DE forum, so I can achieve even much more developing exclusively for my private needs.

Thanks to all the members of the forum offering help/support while I'm creating what most people doesn't seem to understand.

Of course I'm really happy owning my own versions of Puppy Linux plus all the programs I made (with your help). So before I'm getting totally dis-encouraged and disappointed I need to stop here, treasuring this happiness to continue being happy after each new boot of my Puppy Systems and its programs.

LazY Puppy (RSH, R-S-H)

[musher0]

Hello RSH.

Ah. You are behaving like a misunderstood artist. Mondrian, Borduas, etc.

> 3. Obviously most people in this forum (and probably also outside the forum)
seems not to understand what I'm creating.

Get used to it. People are not ready for geniuses like you.

Count yourself lucky that they were interested in your previous project. There was
a match then between the need and your offering; perhaps this context does not
exist now. Also the novelty effect. This effect cannot be repeated.

Obviously, you are also an idealist and a workaholic.
Second one not good, not good at all.
Go out in the fresh air and fill your lungs, enjoy the smell of it.

Sad news, but better this way for you, I think. You should not overwork yourself.

BFN.

[jamesbond]

@RSH - it could have been worse. You could have been trolled and insulted (like me) after all the efforts that you have spent. So consider yourself lucky

On the other hand, I would hope that you would continue your work on TOPLESS and Puppy in general. An artistic exploration is its own virtue. You don't need others to tell you it's good; *you* know it's good and that's why you want to share - what other think is of secondary relevance. Unless, of course, you crave for an audience - that's another matter altogether.

Variety is the spice of life. More puppies the better, not worse. Share what you have. Support only when you can. There is no obligation. Puppy is for Fun. When it stops being fun, as musher0 said, go take a break and walk outside. When you're bored being outside *maybe* doing Puppy stuff is fun again.

All the best. Sad to see you go.

[mavrothal]

Is unfortunate that many developers, puppy or otherwise, do not sense the appreciation of their work only when is too late. But hopefully is never "too late".

T.O.P.L.E.S.S. is a very interesting project communicated very ineffectively I'm afraid.
I'm not sure if language or complex/artistic expression is the problem but I think info pages can benefit from programming logic a lot. Simple linear narration with minimal conditions, cases, and loops
So allow me just a little (not necessarily optimal) example for maybe your next project (since this one appears to be stopping )

The opening paragraph reads

T.O.P.L.E.S.S. is much more than just a ToolBox. It will allow to Users to run a fresh, clean and un-remastered Puppy Linux just like a modular SFS-based LazY Puppy or L.A.S.S.I.E. and has been tested successfully in these Puppies: Sulu 004, Precise 5.7.1, Slacko 5.9.3, Slacko 64 5.9.1, Slacko 64 6.3.0, Tahr 6.0.2 CE, Tahr 6.0.5 CE, Tahr 64 6.0.2 CE, Tahr 64 6.0.4 CE, Tahr 64 6.0.5 CE, Unicorn 6.0, Vivid beta2 - and it should work also on newer versions of those Puppies listed. But for newer Slackos it needs some small tweaks in the future

It really provides no information about T.O.P.L.E.S.S. and unless someone had followed your work for the last 3-4 years has no idea what T.O.P.L.E.S.S. may be doing.
Then you need to read carefully ~15 posts an 5000 words to get the idea and decide if you want to try it or not. That is way too much.

It might have been better if you wrote something tike that:

Puppy is know for its OOTB usability and a lot of users prefer to use it without a savefile enjoying high functionality and security at the same time.
However, almost always additional programs must be installed and setting must be saved requiring to remaster/rebuild your puppy.
The remaster/rebuild process must be repeated for every puppy you may want to use or if you need to change your original applications/configuration at a latter point.
T.O.P.L.E.S.S. allows you to customise almost any puppy to your liking and run it without a save file or remaster, enjoying a fresh secure puppy every time.
It also allows you to change the set of additional application at any time by just modifying a simple text file.
Better yet it allows you to use similar or identical setups with different puppies without the need to repeat the entire process from scratch.
So if you like to customise and run your puppy without a save file, or you would like to do that, T.O.P.L.E.S.S. is for you.

And now you provide the minimal info/actions that someone must take to use T.O.P.L.E.S.S.
Additional info can be provided as users start asking questions

Good luck.

[oui]

Hi

I have to shame me: Until yet, I did not unpack your T.O.P.L.E.S.S., but I do often that:

If I test a Puppy, I test it working a certain, long time without interruption. And as it did be published by you, I did just began to test the 64-bit-Jessie/Stretch (was the same problem: Just starting with Jessie, immediately, for me, the other one, Stretch, and the problems for the user, me, grow to an point, where my daily work itself become to be to slow... And as I did not solve divers little problems in the 64 bit version, for ex. the flashplayer doesn't work properly, the puppyist coders are not responsible of that, but for the user, it is indifferent what is the source of there difficulties: they can not use unrestricted their PC..., I am now using the 32 bit version making really all what I will so as I will, but...

... with that I did return to the 32 bit age of computer, that I did begin in 1984, as I was assembler programmer on TMS9900 (Texas Instrument) in the German industry!

I own my second 64 bit PC, 10 years having 64 but using it in 32 bit! Why?

There is actually no puppy usable without restrictions like other good Puppy's (LazY one's for ex. . Thank you again for your wonderful creations in 32 bits) for me. The one requirement I have to meet in each OS is for ex. that after 5 minutes use of it I have to be able to look

http://france2.fr/jt/20h

it is my k.o. test for operating systems because that National TV chain checks and manages the access very more exigent as the most other one (not because it is one TV chain of the nation I belong to but because it do that) according the politic of French people to protect the propriety of brands (Lacoste, Hermes etc.).

today, the most 32 bit versions do that without any claim. it is not new that the 32 bit computer do that without claim but relatively new.

on 64-bit-OS, it stay often difficult.

I know, responsible is not Linux, not Puppy, not the Pyppyist coders, but the international right giving Adobe the right to block only ALL THE WORLD, ALL OUR PLANET (exactly as this definitively "vermin firm" does it again with AIR and Linux). but the effect reduces itself in my consideration to the fact: Nothing to do with divers OS's if they don't take care herself to give unlimited access to actually becoming «actual and normal basic use» of modern media.

We need in that time of overcrowding and global warming new ways.

It is a matter of survival for each human (the animal and plants will not benefit some survival: the most of them will definitively disappear of the universe in the short time of the live of such "vermin companies" like IBM, M$, Adobe etc. and I see a relation of cause to effect in the way we organize the world wide Public Benefit on one side and the protection of propriety of ideas or good at the other side, and this terrible constatation:

the life time of only one generation did cause for the nature the same destruction as the most possible big war.

more and more consumption, more and more and more propriety did ALREADY cause the biggest nature catastrophe of all times since creation of our planet. our intelligence is to absolutely nothing good...

the technological progress would did have permit to limit the disaster using with more care our resources and encouraging the better repartition of them and avoiding the explosion of our world population. The "vermin firms" like IBM, M$, Adobe etc. did block that chance.

It is not ok, that we write today 2016 and continue to use computers like in 1984 .

poor 32 bit computers of today! 500 $ play stations of Texas Instrument did in 1982 already have 32 bit CPU's and it was possible to build those CPU 40..50 time faster as slice bit computers (really done in the military sector), not yesterday, not the day before yesterday but in the age where a great part of you, puppyists, was not born!

for this reason, I will not test T.O.P.L.E.S.S. at all, use actually DebianPup32bit as a bridge against the technological difficulties, I need flash and skype, indifferent if it is protected software or not, as our governments and official institutions use them also in communication with world peoples,

on the meantime since more than 20 years sale standard hardware, being 64 bit PC's (or now ARM and such ones).

I am very sorry, that the Puppy world did resist so long to adopt the extremely progressive ideas of you Rainer. I observe only, that this is no one version of LazY Puppy for 64 bit being available with them.

[step]

Hi Lazy Puppy, when you are ready to come back to this forum come back please; when you feel that it's going to be fun again, and that you're going to enjoy yourself playing with us one more time. Meanwhile, good luck to you, there's a lot that you can do.

[B.K. Johnson]

Off the top, let me say that I am extremely sorry to see LazY Pupy take up his ball and leave the park. I hope his frustrations will soon abate and he will return to the kennels. Ranier, bang the hell out of those drums for a while then return and let's finish the job. For those who don't know, playing drums is one of his talents.

Mavrathol has expressed my feelings exactly.
Language is not the problem. The problem is what problem is RSH trying to solve and writing the appropriate documentation. Writing documentation is a skill. For you guys who write documentation for your programs, here is a worthwhile article.
https://opensource.com/business/15/5/write-better-docs
.
I tried T.O.P.L.E.S.S. out of curiousity, having a vague understanding from RSH's work 4 yrs ago. It was a showcase for a large number of very worthwhile SFSs. But inherent in the opening blurb for TOPLESS was the promise that it was a wrapper for any puppy; I could use my "fresh, clean, un-remastered" puppy as usual with just a few tweaks. I read "un-remastered" to mean I did not have to remaster to use, not that it had to be OOTB. My very first post in the thread raised the issue of installing the cursor_themes pet and having the settings persist over reboots. Immediately, it turned out that it wasn't something that was told in the documentation; it wasn't something that I could do; LazYPuppy had to download and solve the problem. It became evident that hand-holding would be needed with all the changes I wanted my puppy to have, so I could continue to be productive while testing. If it wasn't easy, why should I bother? I was concerned and hereasked if it would not be better to remaster.

The upshot is that if the user is content with a puppy OOTB, he will have no issues trying TOPLESS and its 724 SFSs. But if he has program tweaks to implement, if there are settings usually kept via pupsave, he should first remaster, then use the remastered puppy with T.O.P.L.E.S.S.

The fact is that T.O.P.L.E.S.S. is a vehicle to showcase LazYPuppy (the program). Its objecive is not to solve a problem that users have or percieve. Consequently, people are not drawn to it. It is a solution in search of a problem. Individual SFSs can solve problems, but the user needs to know he has that problem. To grab user attention, he needed to select 2 apps he thinks users have a problem with (especially if it has no known solution, or his is a better solution), then without going into the technical details, tell how to solve it the T.O.P.L.E.S.S. way.

[stemsee]

I just see topless as another very useful tool which needs additional work (automation) to simplify some of its uses (judging by the tutorials).

I can see how Rainer must have felt disappointed after the big release. I think we all understand that the amount of work put into this is staggering (just as I did with Nicons - desktop icon arrangement tool - which no one else uses - but I am glad I did it - even if it is un-needed! It is an option.) Topless is an option which when simplified will be very useful, but at the moment there is no target user except the experimentalist, the curious.

Rcrsn51 also makes available some of his work only through a personal message, no doubt disappointed by the lack of feedback this community generally offers. DebianDog too has countless boot methods which offer benefits that are seemingly un-impactful to the casual user, and one of the devs is also impatient, also being driven not by a need to be understood but by a need to do the job perfectly, in spite of human nature! Other puppy developers are prepared to give only what they were going to do for themselves anyway, and couldn't give a flying fsck if it really does the job for everyone in varying scenarios! The little work I imagine I do starts in puppyland but develops so as to be able to work in similar fashion on other distros too - anyone with no time to try it is missing out and I joyously know it!!

In short your input is very valuable, your expectations are too high, and your artistry and presentation are over the top! Which is exactly how I imagine you are in real life, and quite a handful (your poor mother!). But there you are ... continue if you want to, there is a quiet ready audience who enjoy all your performances, or stop and perform for yourself alone - but that wont make you happier, because you love to share, and that is what drives you!

If I were to tire of the addiction then I will not announce it I will simply stop posting.

regards
stemsee

[LazY Puppy]

Hi.

Thanks for the replies, nice words and criticisms etc.pp.

It seems I need to make another statement as there seems to be some misunderstanding on why I'm discontinuing my work for Puppy in the public and/or my disappointments as well as on its announcement:

1. about T.O.P.L.E.S.S.

Please, do believe me, when I'm telling you that I was already in great doubt generally about publishing T.O.P.L.E.S.S. and offering it to the community before I did announce it. I better just shouldn't have done it!

2. about my Disappointments

I'm not disappointed about people/users/members not using my programs like T.O.P.L.E.S.S. etc.pp.

I'm disappointed about myself, not being able to do effectively comments and/or descriptions in EN language!

Therefor the Problem is:

- my brain just won't stop producing ideas
- the more ideas it produces the more complex it seems to become what I'm doing
- also my general Computer use seems to be totally different to others Peoples Computer use
- especially when it comes to Network stuff

On the other hand -you might have this in mind- at times when the German forum was a little more active there was some kind of goal we reached when the Lucid 528-4 based LazY Puppy was finished at version 2.0.2-005 and then installed on computers in classrooms at a German Public School as a replacement for Windows. In 2015 this LazY Puppy was replaced by a version based on tahr 6.0.2. The teacher -der-schutzhund- built this version by himself using my basic SFS P.L.U.S. programs and LazY Remaster Suite (still based on the remaster script from Lucid).

While working to reach this goal I could understand immediately what I had to read in a post and I could immediately write to a post what I was thinking in task to do a reply to a post.

So in DE think/read/write is a single task without any delay in action.

In EN this is the absolutely revert to me!

A simple post even takes about one hour sometimes as the logical sequence when typing words on a keyboard is different also. If you just could see how often I have to press backspace when writing in EN compared to DE.

So, publishing programs and being active on the forum to give "support/help" to users using my programs is keeping me away from developing my programs - far too much!

And this is the mean part of my disappointment.

3. about my Announcement

Just wanted to avoid a topic like: Where is RSH? or Where is LazY Puppy?

No.

As I said, I need keeping the Fun/Happiness in Puppy and my time is just running out. I'm now 52 and my new musical group Helix Research Out house is taking a huge part of my time as we usually do NOT play 4/4 rhythms. We play rhythms in 5/4, 7/4, 7/8, 11/8, 13/8 and 11/16 or 13/16 beats. I hadn't play the drums very much for appr. 3 years before that - so I was just a bit rusty then. Since we are only two musicians (Drums & 12 String Stick similar to a Chapman Stick plus a Live Looper) and as our main purpose is just to improvise on some basic structures there is a need to do a rehearsal almost daily (alone and combined).

Believe me, it's a heavy task to improvise and to play drum fills and more based on a 11/16 pattern etc.pp. And even more doing this to a Loop recorded live and then re-played live while improvising!

Though, discontinuing my programs doesn't mean not to enter the forum anymore!

As I'm obviously not that Expert and/or Genius I might be still in the need for Help by the forum members. Which had already made me able to do what I'd done so far...

Thanks

[LazY Puppy]

Hi.

Just changed the title of this topic from DISCONTINUED to PAUSED.

I was able to create a solution to make all the user settings persistent just like it is done by the use of a personal storage file (aka: save file). Though, T.O.P.L.E.S.S. don't need and don't use a personal storage file to achieve this.

By examining the code of some scripts that are involved at the shutdown/save process, I was able to grab a small section of code, built a new frame around it and now T.O.P.L.E.S.S. is able to save all the user settings persistent in a (oops, a new term!) Personal Configuration SFS Module (or just Config SFS).

Since all settings are stored into .sfs files (read only) they will remain unchanged until the user decides to save current settings again - the old Config SFS remains as a backup then automatically.

So, I'm going to restart this topic in a while...

[Smithy]

So you could say RSH, that TOPLESS has put her bra on for the Winter, and will possibly be flaunting back in the Spring when it gets a bit warmer.

[LazY Puppy]

So you could say RSH, that TOPLESS has put her bra on for the Winter, and will possibly be flaunting back in the Spring when it gets a bit warmer.

So to say...

And T.O.P.L.E.S.S. will be really hot then.

I'm running now the newest T.O.P.L.E.S.S. LazY Puppy 5 based on tahr 602 for approximately 8/9 days using the new Configuration SFS Module. Since stuff like language, keyboard, time zone, wallpaper, desktop icons plus many more I described before is setup by the two Configuration Files and/or the System SFS Modules of a T.O.P.L.E.S.S. LazY Puppy 5, I had made some different testings on the new Configuration SFS Module. Just for stuff, that is usually changed/setup before creating a personal storage file the first time and currently not covered by those above mentioned T.O.P.L.E.S.S. files.

So, to name a few: setup internet connection to be able to connect by a single click afterwards, changed screen resolution from default 1280x1024 to 1024x768 just to check the results.

There is a difference between loading a personal storage file at boot up and loading the new Configuration SFS Module at boot up. The personal storage file is chosen and then already loaded before the main puppy sfs is loaded. The new Configuration SFS Module is chosen and therefor loaded much later in boot process when /etc/profile.local (created by T.O.P.L.E.S.S.) is executed (so, at the end of /etc/profile).

Though, totally independent from that point of code where those files differently load: after a reboot the fresh, clean, un-remastered, plain tahr 6.0.2 boots into screen resolution 1024x768 and internet connection settings are persistent.

I'm convinced, this time it's getting really HOT!

I'm now mainly in the need to find some way to communicate very effectively what this can do and what will the users benefit from that T.O.P.L.E.S.S. - a Puppy Linux Wrapper to setup a JWM Puppy Linux (plus this version also XFCE and LXDE with some few limitations by not using JWM and the Rox Desktop) in any manner just like using a personal storage file. Though much more saver as it will save changed settings into a read only layer and saves strictly and definitely only by a user request.

Oh, and just as a side note: the user can now set up ulimit in config file to use full memory in ardour.

[stemsee]

I will be testing this out thoroughly fairly soon. |I have some ideas I want to test out, mainly for what I think will be the most useful options and should therefore come as some kind of preset.

I will be happy to write up a manual in English, and How To- you can send me the German, or I will rewrite your' How To'
s if you don't object!

[LazY Puppy]

I will be testing this out thoroughly fairly soon. |I have some ideas I want to test out, mainly for what I think will be the most useful options and should therefore come as some kind of preset.

Please wait for extended testings until I uploaded the new version. Just download the current version, extract it to ext and keep it. If the new version is available just extract it at the location of the kept current version.

I will be happy to write up a manual in English, and How To- you can send me the German, or I will rewrite your' How To'
s if you don't object!

This sounds promising.

This means, you can read/understand German?

So I can write offline in DE and sending to you by PM for translation?

Of course do rewrite what ever you decide to be better rewritten and sent to me, so I can change/update the posts contents.

Thanks!

[step]

You wrote that the new configuration process creates /etc/rc.local. Can you make it so that you don't overwrite an existing rc.local file? For instance, you could write your changes to /etc/rc.d/rc.topless and append

Code: Select all

. /etc/rc.d/rc.topeless

to /etc/rc.d/rc.local

[greengeek]

Just changed the title of this topic from DISCONTINUED to PAUSED.

A pause is much better news than a discontinued. Your work is very intense so it is easy for potential users to understand your frustration. Don't worry about your English - your answers are very detailed and you convey your meaning very well. You have to be patient with the time it takes for a user to understand the complexity of the things that are aleady clear to you inside your head.

Of course it is easy to understand how frustrating it must be for you to translate to a different language. You do a good job despite the difficulties!

If you were constructing a 724 storey skyscraper the building site would be extremely messy and difficult for visitors to navigate. Too bad! Give it time and the final beauty of the architecture will be there for all to see.

Good Luck and enjoy the music!

[starhawk]

Agreed, greengeek! Although I do not understand exactly what TOPLESS is/does, yet -- I gather that it's for SFSes, an alternative to Load-On-The-Fly maybe? I don't get it yet -- RSH is a valuable member of the community. We need devs -- 01micko and 666philb can't / shouldn't be expected to do everything on that front...

@RSH -- I would've offered to translate but I only know a very few words in German, none of which are useful for software/technical stuff. I seem to recall that you and I differ strongly on political (etc) matters (could have you confused, though, with someone else -- that happens with me sometimes ) -- but when work needs to be done, it needs to be done -- and politics (etc) shouldn't get in the way of that.

[greengeek]

Although I do not understand exactly what TOPLESS is/does, yet

I'm going to go out on a limb here and attempt a description:
TOPLESS allows the user to take a standard puppy.sfs as released from the developer and personalise it without changing the original puppy.sfs at all
This avoids the "remaster" situation where you would end up with a number of different modified puppy.sfs files all with the same name.

How does it do this? By having a .cfg file which the user fills with a list of their desired personalisations. And by having a number of .sfs files containing the software the user wants to be grafted in to the pup during boot.

Whats the point? - well lets say you love Tahrpup but like to use it for a number of quite different tasks. You could develop a single personalised Tahrpup with everything installed in it to create a bloated install.
Alternatively, you might want to have 6 different slim versions of Tahrpup (maybe for use by different people on different machines) without doing 6 remasters.
Why create 6 different Tahrpups?
1) A version for indepth graphics creation and manipulation
2) A version for high powered audio applications
3) A version for CAD file creation and scientifc/mathematical modelling
4) A version in a foreign language for your auntie in southeast Monrovia
5) A version with pink lovehearts and lavender floral wallpaper (yuk) for your niece.
6) A wordprocessing version designed to run on a low powered PC.

If I understand it correctly, all of these versions use the same main puppy.sfs - they all get personalised during the boot process by way of the config file and the pile of available sfses you've chosen.

I guess this means you could have one frugal install that can be personalised many different ways - just by virtue of the cfg file. A personal puppy for everyone in the family.

In theory this probably means that if a puppy developer released an updated main puppy.sfs (lets say containing a security fix for wget) it becomes easy to incorporate that without going through a whole series of remasters.

Also - this method allows you to run without savefile - so that your puppy is fully personalised but after each boot it comes up in a pristine state without any accidental junk that you loaded by mistake during the last session. No malware incorporated into a savefile. So you get the benfits of personalisation and also the benefits of pristine non-persistence.

(Just save any personal data on an external partition - that's what every user should be doing already anyway...)

Jeez I hope I'm fairly representing TOPLESS here - don't want to be misinforming )

[starhawk]

That is impressive, if it's correct -- and, either way, I like the idea there.

Thanks for the explanation, greengeek!

[LazY Puppy]

You wrote that the new configuration process creates /etc/rc.local. Can you make it so that you don't overwrite an existing rc.local file? For instance, you could write your changes to /etc/rc.d/rc.topless and append

Code: Select all

. /etc/rc.d/rc.topeless

to /etc/rc.d/rc.local

No, it doesn't create /etc/rc.local.

If I had written such, it was a typo.

It creates instead: /etc/profile.local and if such file is already existing it won't be overwritten - the new code is just applied then to the existing /etc/profile.local.

File /etc/profile.local usually is used (as I do understand this) to give a user possibility to setup his own profile after /etc/profile had setup a default puppy profile.