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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
DEVUAN Jessie Puppy?
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edoc


Joined: 07 Aug 2005
Posts: 4722
Location: Southeast Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Sun 08 May 2016, 23:00    Post subject:  DEVUAN Jessie Puppy?  

With the long-delayed release of DEVUAN (the Debian alternative) Beta 1.0 named Jessie https://devuan.org/ is there a Puppy in-the-works built upon it?

Thanks ...

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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Mon 09 May 2016, 03:35    Post subject: Re: DEVUAN Jessie Puppy?  

edoc wrote:
With the long-delayed release of DEVUAN (the Debian alternative) Beta 1.0 named Jessie https://devuan.org/ is there a Puppy in-the-works built upon it?

Thanks ...


It is supported in woof-CE thanks to Iguleder .. so maybe.

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rufwoof

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 2604

PostPosted: Mon 09 May 2016, 18:37    Post subject:  

DebianDog Jessie http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=771571#771571 (puppy like) is way way beyond beta.

Personally I found that after switching over from DD Jessie initd to systemd boot I've felt no need to switch back. That said I don't understand the differences, just a end-user who likes the stability and ease of updating, alongside Puppy frugal like boots with optional persistence (choose whether to save or not at shutdown (mostly I don't as I like booting the exact same 'pristine' system each and every time)). The only time I do save is after a clean boot and update check where updates were made (updated pristine). Store data/docs outside (separate partition that I independently back up).
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edoc


Joined: 07 Aug 2005
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Location: Southeast Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Mon 09 May 2016, 22:11    Post subject:  

DebianDog Jessie is not the same thiing as
DEVUAN Jessie

DEVUAN is an systemd-free alternative or fork of Debian.

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nitehawk


Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 658
Location: West Central Florida

PostPosted: Wed 11 May 2016, 14:40    Post subject:  

edoc wrote:
DebianDog Jessie is not the same thiing as
DEVUAN Jessie

DEVUAN is an systemd-free alternative or fork of Debian.


Hi, edoc!!!

I too, am a fan of anti-systemd alternative Devuan. And since I also love Puppy,..I would also love a Puppy-Devuan. However,....I am (whilst waiting), going with non-systemd MX-15 (and adding on fluxbox). But still waiting. (I also am using other Puppies, though.)
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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Thu 12 May 2016, 04:25    Post subject:  

Edoc, I think you're making wrong assumptions. First, forking Debian would be like attempting to fork algebra - an impossible task. Debian is too big to fork. Devuan is an exercise in futility, a little "dead on arrival" project. Secondly, Puppy does not use systemd. By default, its init system is busybox. So, a Puppy built from Debian, Ubuntu or Devuan repos will be the same *systemd free* beast.
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edoc


Joined: 07 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 12 May 2016, 08:11    Post subject:  

Scrolling 1/3 down the page here:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=902434

It seems I'm not the only one pursuing this as real.

I didn't think the systemd thread would still be alive so I hadn't checked it for info.

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Scooby

Joined: 03 Mar 2012
Posts: 601

PostPosted: Thu 12 May 2016, 14:30    Post subject:  

I too would like a devuan puppy

Don't like systemd, Can just as well go back to windows.
In five years the lock in will be equal as in win.

They are cooking the users as you cook live frogs
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learnhow2code

Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 1015

PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun 2016, 00:15    Post subject:  

to anyone interested in a devuan dog:

edoc wrote:
DebianDog Jessie is not the same thiing as
DEVUAN Jessie

DEVUAN is an systemd-free alternative or fork of Debian.


if you are looking for a devuan puppy, i will tell you the closest thing i know: refracta.

i used puppy on a regular basis years ago, and i thought it was remarkable how easy it was to customize, build packages, remix, things like that.

refracta is the only distro that reminds me of puppy this way (although it lacks a lot of puppy features like support for puppy packages and multisession persisting. it should remix very easily.)

it was dimkr that reminded me of puppy and i tried his puplet some time in the past year.

i would suggest to him that if he is looking for an easy way to turn devuan into puppy, perhaps some installation scripts (to load puppy-like software and remove heavier debian things, before doing a snapshot) on refracta is the easiest way to maintain a devuan puplet.

i wouldnt personally be interested in building such a thing, but if he (or someone) were interested enough, i could try to help them get started. perhaps help until a demo is ready.

im very lazy, so i would be quick to find the "simplest" way to do this without using a lot of high-end science (or even perl scripts. small amounts of python, perhaps.)

im more into refracta than puppy, but this place has always collected and implemented large numbers of novel ideas, with minimal labor (compared to other distros.) you guys build simple tools and simple solutions, and you use them to do really cool stuff.

at one point i thought puppy was getting too sloppy, but if that had continued from the day i left it behind, puppy would be a complete mess now. instead, you guys have held it together for a decade, and you still innovate. the fact that you even made a debian puplet is pretty amazing, imo.

currently my favorite puppy is tahr, because it works for me(tm) and it has python out of the box. i bet debian dog does too, but tahr is only 205m. can that be right? wow, guys. 205m and has everything i need to run my educational platform- from x to python.

where can i find a fairly up-to-date poll on the most popular versions of puppy, including tahr and others? or instead: a list of packages included in debiandog?
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01101001b


Joined: 08 Mar 2017
Posts: 47
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun 2018, 18:03    Post subject:  

anikin wrote:
Devuan is an exercise in futility, a little "dead on arrival" project.

Maybe not. Two years have passed and Devuan is still here and in a 2.0 version Wink

anikin wrote:
Puppy does not use systemd. By default, its init system is busybox. So, a Puppy built from Debian, Ubuntu or Devuan repos will be the same *systemd free* beast.

This is such a relief! Thanks for the tip Anikin! I mean it, no sarcasm here. I've checked it, and yes, you're right.

Just recently I started to pay some attention to this systemd matter, and although it seems a good idea, there's a fundamental flaw in its design, what's a dealbreaker for me.

Since I've been using Dpup, my concern about a Puppy version of Devuan began to grow, until now. However, you can find systemd libraries in Dpup. Exactly how much this affects Dpup, I don't know.

So far Dpup works beautifully in my pc, less some very minor quirks here and there. If some time in the future this changes for worse, I'll try Refracta or a DevuanPup if any.

Until then, again, thanks for the heads-up Smile
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hamoudoudou

Joined: 24 Jul 2014
Posts: 1467
Location: rabat

PostPosted: Thu 14 Jun 2018, 02:07    Post subject: Puduan = Devuan Puppy  

Puduan = Devuan Puppy
Ally archives : you should find some of them.
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nosystemdthanks

Joined: 03 May 2018
Posts: 333

PostPosted: Thu 14 Jun 2018, 02:46    Post subject:  

while i dont agree entirely with anikin, turning debian into something free of systemd is unlikely to ever happen.

devuan is getting farther from its goal, not closer. sure, its still here. i first used it 3 years and 4 months ago.

right now the system im running (based on void) is so unfriendly that after i successfully installed it and was using it for days, rebooting killed the install-- dracut cant find the /root system.

i can find it, but i cant make it boot. ive even tried frugal (i did frugal with refracta) but that didnt help.

i will fiddle with this before i go back to debian ever again. because:

a. this doesnt work very well yet, but if i fix it then the fix is more likely to be maintainable. debian chases fads now, you might as well use ubuntu.

b. debian just keeps breaking stuff for the sake of breaking it. they dont call it that, but thats exactly what theyre doing-- breaking stuff for the sake of breaking it.

c. some of the developers of devuan are cool, ive met one of them in person. jaromil / denis seems alright too. he lends legitimacy to it.

but devuan is a mess, and they are importing problems faster than theyre creating solutions. which just goes to show what garbage debian has turned into since debian 8. it was in my opinion, the best distro for years.

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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Jun 2018, 02:55    Post subject:  

01101001b wrote:
anikin wrote:
Devuan is an exercise in futility, a little "dead on arrival" project.

Maybe not. Two years have passed and Devuan is still here and in a 2.0 version ...

As a fan of Debian, I posted that on 12 May 2016.
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=903472#903472
My concern was that the aggressive, ideological onslaught and rhetoric that came from Devuan and magnified on this forum would split Debian. The feelings were raw back then. Things have changed. Technocrats and Debian enthusiasts have prevailed in Devuan. They don't talk much about "initfreedom BS." anymore. That's a good sign, after all, Devuan is Debian without systemd. I don't see it as fork - it is a project. Having said that, I'm with Debian and embrace it as it is - including systemd. And no, I'm not opposed to Devuan any more. It has great educational value ... and I'm posting this from my self-built Devuan jessie.

Regarding the so called "Puduan Puppy" it's utter nonsense and stupidity - you simply can't build Devuan on Puppy.

Last edited by anikin on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 03:03; edited 1 time in total
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 1227

PostPosted: Thu 14 Jun 2018, 03:01    Post subject:  

anikin wrote:
Edoc, I think you're making wrong assumptions. First, forking Debian would be like attempting to fork algebra - an impossible task. Debian is too big to fork. Devuan is an exercise in futility, a little "dead on arrival" project. Secondly, Puppy does not use systemd. By default, its init system is busybox. So, a Puppy built from Debian, Ubuntu or Devuan repos will be the same *systemd free* beast.


As someone that has never built a puppy from wolf, it is hard for me to know if this is the case. However, I have noticed that in puppyies as old as Tahrpup, if you download the wrong thing from the package manager then you end up with a crapload of systemd or gnome compoents due to uncessary dependencies. For instance, why does dropbox need systemd compoenents as a dependency? The answer is it doesn't. If you download the deb from the dropbox site you don't get these dependencies but if you install it from the Ubuntu repo then you get a crapload of them.

If Devaun, is compatable with debian then one can still use debian packages with devaun, and will therefore get much of the advantages of debians large repositories. Also having a clean systemd free repo, means that one can safely download packages from the repo without accidently downloading systemd components as a result of an uncessary dependency.

I really think that Puppy should look for alternative repos than Devian or Ubuntu because there are way too many uncessary dependencies in these Repos and things are only going to get worse.

P.S. If debian is too big to fork then first gut it, and then remove the systemd components from the minimal version. Actually, there is a script on this forum to make a minimum debian ISO. Maybe, that would be a good place to start for a Devaun-like project.
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 3485
Location: holland

PostPosted: Thu 14 Jun 2018, 09:53    Post subject:  

s243a wrote:
P.S. If debian is too big to fork then first gut it, and then remove the systemd components from the minimal version. Actually, there is a script on this forum to make a minimum debian ISO. Maybe, that would be a good place to start for a Devaun-like project.

Yes, probably referring to this:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=111199
For info, however systemd will be installed, the system created with this script will boot by default with the old initscripts.
Only if you add "init=/bin/systemd" (without quotes) to the kernel line, it will boot with systemd.
Same goes btw for the "Starter Kit" from rcrsn51, see here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=112784

Fred

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