Criticism of woof-CE and of the people involved in it.

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jlst · #101 Post by **jlst** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 00:23

I must say I agree with smithy hehe..

Sailor Enceladus · #102 Post by **Sailor Enceladus** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 00:35

@Smithy: All the MSI Winds I can see have a physical button below the trackpad to click. Are you saying that your model doesn't have one, or that it has one but it doesn't work, or that it has one and it does work (but you'd rather press Tab 23 times)?

These lines in your code makes me wonder

Code: Select all

    TapButton1              = 1
    TapButton2              = 3
    TapButton3              = 2

greengeek · #103 Post by **greengeek** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 04:12

I definitely think that tap-to-click should be off as a default. If it is enabled it makes it too easy to accidentally move files and directories somewhere they should not go. That is a dangerous no-no for newbies.

By far the majority of PCs (Maybe 98% plus?) have buttons for left and right click so tap-to-click is not required as a default.

In my view there is no justification for configuring everyone else's boot defaults to match such a tiny portion of users.

learnhow2code · #104 Post by **learnhow2code** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 04:26

greengeek wrote:I definitely think that tap-to-click should be off as a default. If it is enabled it makes it too easy to accidentally move files and directories somewhere they should not go. That is a dangerous no-no for newbies.

im paying close attention to comments like this (even some made in the past.) one of the first things i do in refracta (and its the same in refractahrpup) is run TapButton1=1, because its annoying when its not on (i share smithys preference.)

but while i am thinking about how to make it easier to turn on and off (a gui tool? a desktop icon?) i think the default "off" is wise for the reason you said.

i do hear a lot of people complain (very bitterly) about their out-of-control, over-sensitive trackpad in windows (or ubuntu.) why is it off in devuan and refracta? i dunno, perhaps they are right.

greengeek · #105 Post by **greengeek** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 04:53

learnhow2code wrote:one of the first things i do in refracta (and its the same in refractahrpup) is run TapButton1=1...but while i am thinking about how to make it easier to turn on and off (a gui tool? a desktop icon?)

Excellent idea - a desktop icon would be great. Although now I think about it an icon wouldnt suffice because someone without a click button couldnt trigger the icon. Hmmm. maybe a script which asks the question on first boot "Activate touch-to-tap? YES/NO "Press enter to accept".

jlst · #106 Post by **jlst** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 05:37

I think I'll rename the file until further notice or until i create an appropiate script doing what greengeek suggests.

I also want a tap-to-click behavior by default, but there is something wrong with Puppy file managers... I always have "Open files with single click" unticked in PCManFM.

As a Windows user i always had to click twice to open a document, etc. When I switched to Puppy i didn't like rox filer and i had to disable the "Open files with single click" or whatever it is called in rox.

Indeed for puppy users this advantage is actually a disavatange due to bad file manager default configuration..

jlst · #107 Post by **jlst** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 05:44

I want to clarify that the .flSynclient file can get overwritten if a file with the same name is in a package that gets installed by woof.

This leads to inconsistencies and a general chaos, basically that's why i don't like the idea of puppy projects being so "independent", but i'm not one to say this.

learnhow2code · #108 Post by **learnhow2code** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 06:46

jlst wrote:This leads to inconsistencies and a general chaos, basically that's why i don't like the idea of puppy projects being so "independent"

the extreme version of this argument is what led to systemd. i dont mean to lump you in with that, its just that (as im sure you realize) theres no way to control what people do with the software.

actually barrys trademark on "puppy linux" is probably good for another 5-10 years, so he could start enforcing it but it would really undo some of what hes accomplished in the way of stepping back. from mozilla we know the kind of reaction that it would probably create.

the concept im promoting right now (which is by no means a silver bullet) is to fix (and create) isos from isos, with scripts that can be used to "put back" anything that woof-ce or any other wacky distro decision an otherwise worthy puplet manages to put out of place.

its not for everyone, but i think its a step in a direction that can bring puppys quality level up even further, for those interested. let the developers doing most of the work do most of the work, then let these other tools fix up and polish what doesnt leave enough people happy. after all, there are some options you just want checked before the iso goes to the cd (or dvd or usb.)

jlst · #109 Post by **jlst** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 20:15

So basically TapButton1 is the variable here... i guess (and 2 and 3)

I wrote a simple script that uses pupdialog, once it's finished it could go in /root/Startup or something

There are 2 versions of the same script.. which one do you think is the more appropriate?

Sailor Enceladus · #110 Post by **Sailor Enceladus** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 20:46

Looks nice jlst. I like both. It's a tough call. syn would require less Tabbing, but syn2 explains more.

greengeek · #111 Post by **greengeek** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 21:10

Nice script. I like the greater clarity of user feedback offered by syn2 (in fact if it's ok with you I will borrow that code to include in a rewrite of a similar but much more clunky method that I am grafting into my current puppy project).

Unfortunately on the machine I am currently using (away from home) I can't seem to successfully alter the touchpad settings either manually or with the script (no idea why yet) but more testing to follow...

EDIT - maybe you should ask Flash to split off this topic from the original thread as I think your script could lead to wider development and feedback - including variants for trackpads/clickpads (ie touchpads without tangible buttons at all) etc.

I can imagine a number of variants of your script suitable for different hardware or different puppies.

(and I also forsee value in incorporating a method to alter touchpad settings on machines that do not have synaptics module loaded at all...)

learnhow2code · #112 Post by **learnhow2code** » Mon 18 Jul 2016, 22:10

greengeek wrote:in fact if it's ok with you I will borrow that code to include in a rewrite of a similar but much more clunky method that I am grafting into my current puppy project

does the script have a license? gpl 2? gpl 3? bsd? mit?

jlst · #113 Post by **jlst** » Tue 19 Jul 2016, 04:01

ggeek you can do whatever you want with it.

If it doesn't work for you then the script is quite incomplete. However you can help by pasting the report-video output.

It's a good idea what you're proposing, i can certainly improve everything and add support for more hardware, but i only have access to laptops that work with the Synaptics driver, and the code is already working in all of them..

I just need some hints and a sample file (before and after the suggested change, if possible) and someone to test the code and report how it is working. I guess a new thread can be opened.. but I don't want to open it myself, all my topics are cursed...

Smithy · #114 Post by **Smithy** » Tue 19 Jul 2016, 10:42

Well the clickpad vs no clickpad is going to be an ongoing saga that might never be solved, due to personal preferences.
Possibly as a hangover from when Barry and co were wildly thrashing around accidentaly opening 20 windows. More splashes as an option? No thanks.

All I can say is that those .flsynclient settings were honed and provide a perfect sensitivity and single tap action on netbooks, on a par with windows, the right click is not a problem.

But anyone trying to use the left button instead of the tap must have masochistic tendencies imho.

I used to think I was good in bed, but then I realised all my girlfriends had athsma! (not my joke heh).

Now for the next possible commit in woofy 'ting.
Those crappy boot up things that confuse and nursemaid the newbie.
This pet (on a remaster) will let Puppy come to the desktop in its full glory, and leave the new user
to peruse the new operating system without pressure.

So one can have a look around, not be urged to get onto the internet, do this, go there..
Don't worry, there are probably a few other splashes no doubt lurking as soon as one connects, still at least no ads to join mcaffee or norton!

It is good to see Phil's Xenial (for example) come up to the desktop without impedence.

I think Rerwin formulated the disable popups idea. Anyways good to see it works on the new pups.

Although some bugger will maybe try and "fix" that along with the removal of the DOWNLOADS folder in root!

I reckon that newcomers would find navigating Puppy extremely easy and there are the good wizards on the taskbar and in the menu (sometimes in duplicate and triplicate menus). Those I don't dispute at all.

jlst · #115 Post by **jlst** » Tue 19 Jul 2016, 17:04

Harr.

Yeah I agree about the splashes. however the app could go in the Setup menu perhaps, i mean, if it's worthy of being there.

Well with woofce now you don't have to install pets or remaster to get some things working. take into account "zdrv...sfs," you can create a ydrv, adrv (and fdrv with the new code), and the file will be loaded and all the changes apply since the first boot.

I think a quicksetup icon in the desktop could solve this issue...

Smithy · #116 Post by **Smithy** » Tue 19 Jul 2016, 18:21

Well it isn't an "app" as such jist, I couldn't think of a way of posting the two blank files that are in the pet.

Incidentally, where could I get detailed info on the new firewall, where it is located in Puppy and how to adjust settings. Compared to the old one it is..obtuse. Is it a completely new one?

And the hard drives can no longer have an on/off light on the icons now?
Now that's possibly dangerous for newbs, I would think.

EDIT: The Xenial bugfix zip at ibiblio fixes that issue. Not that Linux utils pet.
That locked the pc up.

And the multiple sound card doesn't seem to be functioning correctly. Volume control disappears and the select dialogue gets screwed up, it doesn't seem to respond to a click. Restart x a few times and eventually it gets there, and then it goes again.
EDIT: When one selects the setup sound, clicking on the first dialogue, with the mixer icon on it restores the volume icon on the taskbar again.

Those three things tested in Xenial. The rest seems great.

jlst · #117 Post by **jlst** » Tue 19 Jul 2016, 18:47

Tell me the issues you're having with MSCW.

Well, phil666bb did report some issues, but i guess he was not using the new MSCW. This can be solved by somehow blacklisting some pet packages in woof (ignore the one specified in PKG_DISTRO_SPECS.

Overall, maybe the ubuntu project needs some intervention from other developers to put some things in place. Uhmm reading micko already provided util-linux 1.21.

Smithy · #118 Post by **Smithy** » Tue 19 Jul 2016, 22:34

I don't know what goes on in woof, I just download pups and try 'em out periodically.
I do skin them with tint2 and openbox, and if things move or whatever, it all goes to pot.

EDIT: It wasn't the Multiple Soundcard Script,
it was a problem with Retrovol and Tint2/Openbox,
so I had to do a little fiddling with startup. It's always been a bit fiddly, but retrovol is very adjustable with a right click on the volume icon.
Just clarifying so no one goes off on a wild goose chase. MSCW seems ok.

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