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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
is puppy top heavy?
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Tue 26 Jul 2016, 16:31    Post subject:  

Well, the middle class is always at risk.

The problem here is that a coordinator or something is missing, someone who is willing to talk to a lot of people to get stuff together, because it's a chaotic situation. Even when the official pups are now the woofce ones, many people don't use them.

I can certainly produce a woofce retro pup for those users, but then i wouldn't have time to be a user.
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learnhow2code

Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 1015

PostPosted: Tue 26 Jul 2016, 17:33    Post subject:  

jlst wrote:
I can certainly produce a woofce retro pup for those users, but then i wouldn't have time to be a user.


heres a funny thing-- if some people work on a remaster script that lets people make custom puppies themselves, something with more options than just "1. add packages 2. remaster" and its friendly enough, people will use it. but if its not ALREADY in puppy, they probably wont.

i think remaster scripts are the cure to all this, but the reality is its probably going to take more than just remaster scripts.

still thats my backup plan in case things keep going downhill. one of the concerns it doesnt address is how to dev anything without the constant (and often not well thought out) critiques from people you WOULD like to hear from, but only if theyre going to put a little more thought into their evaluations.

ultimately you WANT feedback-- good and bad. but only a masochist would want the bulk of the feedback you could get right now. when you opt not to be part of puppy development, you arent just avoiding work-- youre avoiding attacks.

these "attacks" are not really criminal (no point in asking for bans, its not simple trolling) but theyre often based on (and the source of) misunderstandings that no one is around to mitigate. the devs dont want to deal with such misunderstandings (why would they) and the fans just want to attack anyone that mentions it.

and again, im not speaking hypothetically. there are devs (i think i know at least TWO) who are literally hiding anything they do. so if i think some of the others who say "i never publish my work" the best reason is "i dont think its good enough." but really-- WHAT EVEN IS "good enough" these days, thats its worth publishing-- and then Defending, like a phd thesis?

the crisis is real. it may not be "the end of puppy" but that doesnt mean there isnt a lot of goofy stuff to address. i think the hope is it this issue will just go away... maybe. in any case i dont think any one group (let alone person) is to blame. its just this thing going on, which people mention occasionally. perhaps its not so bad.

personally i think a lot of gnu/linux distros are going through growing pains. i read of people leaving for bsd, which is totally fine for them, its surprising though. for science, i tried bsd last year. now ive got my own sort-of distro, sort-of. bsd hw support is... well, its bsd. i can tell you as a matter of fact i would remaster puppy before switching to bsd, literally.
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slavvo67

Joined: 12 Oct 2012
Posts: 1565
Location: The other Mr. 305

PostPosted: Tue 26 Jul 2016, 20:07    Post subject:  

Hi Guys:

Not sure what this thread has to do with Puppy being too heavy. Seems more a comparison of Woof to Remastering. Anyway...

1. Building in Woof-CE is a time consuming process and the final product after spending that time can be hit or miss. Also, in my usage, even pets need to be created differently if you want to pinboard them. If someone is lucky enough to get a Puppy working; they will usually want to share. But many, including me, do not own 10 different computer brands or different sets of hardware for testing. So, in my opinion, the community should chip in for those situations. My opinion is, hey it works for me...hope it works for you and hope you like my additions / subtractions from the standard programs.

2. I have also remastered a bunch of Puppies in my day and there's something quite nice about doing a remaster on a Puppy that I'm already happy with.

Ultimately, I like doing both but I feel more accomplished doing a build via Woof. As for Puppy being top heavy, you can always remove the programs you do not like.

Best,

Slavvo67
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learnhow2code

Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 1015

PostPosted: Tue 26 Jul 2016, 20:28    Post subject:  

slavvo67 wrote:
Hi Guys:

Not sure what this thread has to do with Puppy being too heavy.


not too heavy, top heavy. and only in certain ways.

Quote:
Seems more a comparison of Woof to Remastering.


lets pretend it is about exactly that, and talk about that, which is fine too.

Quote:
1. Building in Woof-CE is a time consuming process and the final product after spending that time can be hit or miss. Also, in my usage, even pets need to be created differently if you want to pinboard them. If someone is lucky enough to get a Puppy working; they will usually want to share. But many, including me, do not own 10 different computer brands or different sets of hardware for testing. So, in my opinion, the community should chip in for those situations.


just so you know, i agree with this (the last part may not be a practical expectation, but its certainly a reasonable point) and its a good way of putting some of the points ive made at the top.


Quote:
My opinion is, hey it works for me...hope it works for you and hope you like my additions / subtractions from the standard programs.


cool.


Quote:
2. I have also remastered a bunch of Puppies in my day and there's something quite nice about doing a remaster on a Puppy that I'm already happy with.


im not against remastering-- i have done it myself and it is quite nice.


Quote:
Ultimately, I like doing both but I feel more accomplished doing a build via Woof. As for Puppy being top heavy, you can always remove the programs you do not like.


true! but not really what i was talking about.

your input about woof is really good, and i appreciate also the part you quoted, thanks for your reply.
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 2558
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul 2016, 03:33    Post subject:  

learnhow2code wrote:
s243a wrote:
So I can't speak for the developers but I suspect that they would still consider the remaster script an essential feature of puppy Linux. If there are bugs in it then perhaps you can propose some solutions.


there ARE bugs, some people are losing their hard drive contents to it. but if youre a dev (even if youre not) you should know that virtually all programs have some bugs-- being able to fix them is another matter, and what im suggesting is that SOME of the infrastructure in puppy is too complex for perhaps ANY of us to fix.

im not saying the remaster script isnt essential. i dont know whats essential. the fact that barry himself isnt really using it anymore-- it seems to not be as popular as it was. and thats OK... but if its less popular, has some bugs, fewer people feel an incentive to fix it, and its large and complex enough for most people to not know what to do with it, and its author isnt interested...

im just saying, there may not be a solution that fits every problem with it. but if there is, thats great-- that means all we have to do is WAIT for it to be fixed Smile that still leaves pmount, which some people would like to modify but its too complex. i cant believe how complex it is.

its the natural order of things to become this complex over time. sometimes they end up unintentionally (or intentionally) abandoned. im not suggesting we do anything with haste, only that perhaps there are some alternatives to this complexity. i dont know if im trying to prove it, or if im asking. to me, thats not the point-- but i did mention it. dont think of it as a complaint; its something i find interesting. im not asking anyone to fix it.


But as a self-confessed master of coding this minor irritation of bugs in the remaster script should be childs play for you to sort out. We are looking forward to your bullet-proof edition of a remaster script. Now, that will be a really worthwhile contribution to the puppy community.
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learnhow2code

Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 1015

PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul 2016, 03:45    Post subject:  

nic007 wrote:
But as a self-confessed master of coding this minor irritation of bugs in the remaster script should be childs play for you to sort out.


look dont bother me nic-- not that its very relevant to my post, but since you insist... go tell the relevant poster that the loss of the contents of her entire hd is a "minor irritation." im sure she will thank you for the usual level of understanding you have of people and their concerns.

Quote:
We are looking forward to your bullet-proof edition of a remaster script.


spitting image has you and shuttleworth figured out alright-- i like dave matthews but you remind me more of his fans at concerts.
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul 2016, 11:15    Post subject:  

Regarding the remaster script... i've never used it, i agree that it must be fixed, but i wrote my own remaster script, i'm not sure if if i'm up to the task to edit the official one.

Well, woofce is gradually becoming a new entity, to be honest to make a woofce puppy really usable for most purposes one must literally break many scripts outside of woofce by fixing bugs (such as the coreutils/util-linux/busybox mess).
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learnhow2code

Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 1015

PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul 2016, 11:35    Post subject:  

jlst wrote:
Regarding the remaster script... i've never used it, i agree that it must be fixed,


and interestingly this thread isnt even about asking anyone to fix it-- (although thats a related topic thats perfectly welcome here) but about the pros and cons of some of the design decisions involved. if that inspires fixes, well thats fine.

Quote:
but i wrote my own remaster script, i'm not sure if if i'm up to the task to edit the official one.


thats exactly what im getting at-- im not sure how many people are up to editing the official one. but as long as its designed with that in mind, and as long as some people are up to it, i suppose its fine. imo its a good thing if people are offering alternatives and working on those.

Quote:
woofce is gradually becoming a new entity, to be honest to make a woofce puppy really usable for most purposes one must literally break many scripts outside of woofce by fixing bugs (such as the coreutils/util-linux/busybox mess).


this is more what im getting at.

as long as people are up to working around it, thats great.
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul 2016, 13:00    Post subject:  

technosauru's approach to deal with problems seems to be the most reasonable.. as simple as possible. i read he's rewriting scripts to produce another major alternative.

when working with puppy... finding the needed documentation at the right time can be a bit difficult. i learned by reading the scripts and what they do, how they do it... i guess that's the hard way.

i'd like to write some docs, but somebody must proofread what i write, as i'm stuck at intermediate level
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learnhow2code

Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 1015

PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul 2016, 13:45    Post subject:  

jlst wrote:
when working with puppy... finding the needed documentation at the right time can be a bit difficult. i learned by reading the scripts and what they do, how they do it... i guess that's the hard way.


sometimes its the only way-- and thats alright. sometimes its a real challenge to find the thing youre looking for in there, because there are several things its collected over time.

there used to be more people learning enough to write docs and answer questions.

while its easy to take this as a complaint, its really just a suggestion that we keep streamlining a little here and there, if only so the next generation of puppy dev+enthusiasts can come in and add their own customizations.

that seems to be what a number of people are doing right now, so you can take it as a complaint that they need to, or you can take it as me cheering on the effort. the former serves no purpose, and the latter is what i feel inclined to do. its a little self-serving, but if thats the cost of cheering on someone elses work, thats probably ok.
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slavvo67

Joined: 12 Oct 2012
Posts: 1565
Location: The other Mr. 305

PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul 2016, 18:55    Post subject:  

I'm sorry, I guess I misread. But I have used the built in remaster script on many occasions with many different Puppies and never had a problem. Some derivatives, like the Fatdog script (don't recall which version) did not save my changes.

I think it's generally a user issue if they deleted their data using a built-in remaster script. In my testing, at least some of the other remaster scripts (pets) available on the board do have issues and do not work properly, at least for me. Personally, i try to test and test again any script or pet before I post but some may post alpha versions that can really screw up a beginner.

Just my 2-cents and I hope I hit the point a little better this time.

Best,

Slavvo67
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learnhow2code

Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 1015

PostPosted: Wed 27 Jul 2016, 19:14    Post subject:  

slavvo67 wrote:
I think it's generally a user issue if they deleted their data using a built-in remaster script. In my testing, at least some of the other remaster scripts (pets) available on the board do have issues and do not work properly, at least for me.


youre not necessarily wrong-- in any case im more "concerned" with the ability of the community to maintain the scripts in question than the present level of functionality-- and the ability of the community to continue doing what its doing.

there isnt necessarily a problem at all, although if you consider a decrease in dev/user community/connection/communication an issue, i think that can probably be proven somehow.

rather than reading it as a bug report with unclear details, i recommend filing it under "random idea/informal rfc." but in any case, thanks for letting me clarify. incidentally, this talk of the remaster script reminds me of a recent exchange in #devuan on freenode:

Quote:
lkcl
Lydia_K: debian installer has to cover a massive number of use-cases in a very very resource-limited environment
Lydia_K: so it can't use dpkg or bash... because those require too much space. busybox and a special cut-down version of dpkg is needed.
Lydia_K: there's also pre-seeding which helps pre-answer many of the questions that you get asked

Lydia_K
I'm sure, and I don't mean to **** on it, I just found the whole thing really confusing.

lkcl
there's options for running debian-installer over different prptocols
Lydia_K: you will. it's written by some extraordinarily gifted programmers who understand the complexities of covering dozens of different use-cases on dozens of different OSes, using layer on layer of abstraction to refine things down to fit inside the absolute minimal environments

Lydia_K
I got the feeling that it was one of those things that grew out of control early on and now would be a momumental effort to change or break up, but that was just my impression of it from digging around for a while trying to find some answers.


fwiw, im quite certain i would rather edit the puppy remaster scripts than debian-installer...
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greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 5121
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul 2016, 00:47    Post subject:  

starhawk wrote:
People will come to you with problems and you must be able to solve them, at least for the most part -- and if you can't, you are just wasting everyone else's time.
I don't agree about it being a waste of time - I think every genuine effort to build a new puppy or puplet or puprototype expands the options for other users and i don't consider it a waste of time at all.

Of course it is preferable if someone has the skills to fully maintain the new pup and solve every possible issue - but I think that is unrealistic and I think anyone who wants to release a pup should do so and be happy to enlist the support of other users in troubleshooting and finding solutions.

Anyone who expects perfection from a "dev" or a "user dev" or a "part dev+user" or whatever is just asking too much. It is the support of the wider puppy community on this forum that allows problems to be solved where a single person may not have the solution.

BTW - you are a dev in my eyes. Anyone who is brave enough to release a protopup should feel proud of their release - warts and all. Sure, we know the top devs really deserve their title - but as well as meaning "developer" - "dev" means "development" and every contribution feeds the overall development of puppy as a distro that can offer something to the everexpanding variety of different users.

Dev on dude!!
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learnhow2code

Joined: 12 Jun 2016
Posts: 1015

PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul 2016, 02:22    Post subject:  

that was a particularly excellent post, greengeek-- refreshingly insightful and thoughtful without either pandering or biting, and generally doing justice to everything it mentions.
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 5056
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Fri 29 Jul 2016, 11:03    Post subject:  

@green -- thanks, really -- but I'm just a user, for now at least, and I'm fine with that.
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