Puppy and klhrevolutionist mentioned at Distrowatch
clarification/summary
The origination of this thread seems in response to a perceived threat or danger to the integrity of the Puppy Linux Foundation and so my proposal of changing what the Foundation was and is to make it open to all "contributing members of the Puppy Linux community" but with smaller specialized groups with their own areas of influence should resolve that. Some groups would overlap other groups as well, and so collaboration would still be needed. More on specifics of organizing the groups is to come by me and others and will take time of course.
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Pizzasgood
- Posts: 6183
- Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 20:28
- Location: Knoxville, TN, USA
I'm fine with it. As I said before, I'm also fine if we do a name-change just to make things more simple. Now would be a good time to do it, even if we just changed to a code-name until a final could be decided.
Besides, look at Phoenix. Or should I say Firebird, or Firefox. I could even throw in IceWeasel.
Besides, look at Phoenix. Or should I say Firebird, or Firefox. I could even throw in IceWeasel.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]
in a one-sided way of things mark, you're absolutely right. i mean i can't even argue with your point from the perspective you're arguing from, because from your perspective, it's flawless.
the thing is, there isn't one side to this. puppy was partially created by barry, partially by you, partially by people that may not have even heard of puppylinux. it stands to be created, upgraded, contributed to, by the efforts of thousands or millions of people. people we don't know.
linus could not have seen how many people would transform his os, and neither could barry. i have mentioned barry's generousity again, and again, and again, and again. i can't be more clear than that, mark. i can't be more clear about anything i've said than i have.
but if god forbid, anything happened to barry, no one has the right (but his estate, who for all we know, doesn't know what a linux is) to continue development, except you, and pizzasgood, and the foundation... and the foundation of course is the center of a disaster at the moment.
puppy cannot become unfree... that really doesn't clarify anything. with the utmost respect for your personal work and your personal intentions, maybe it is my german, (doesn't even exist) or your english, or maybe it is emotions that keep us from understanding each other. i can get permission from barry to make a new version of puppy, but i cannot release the entirety- including the startup scripts that make puppy better than dsl and feather- under the gpl. only barry can do that. if truly the only thing in the way of this is changing the name to something that doesn't include the trademark, that's fine. no clarification of this so far. certainly no clarification in the line: "all rights reserved... where not conflicting with other licenses."
the fact that other things like opera are included probably (only a lawyer can tell you, and i'm well aware, again, that puppy has been blessed with compliance) don't bear any relevance. barry could, if he wanted, release a gpl version that anyone could use for any purpose the gpl allowed. i have asked before, and i will ask again, how much would it cost to obtain the right to do so? (minus things such as opera, which barry does not own, and minus things like dillo, which are already under a foss license- PLUS everything that barry has the right to "all rights reserved...")
open source development is not the problem here, mark, the problem is that too many things are not clear. when things are very confusing, you cannot take it too personally that people first ask what is going on, and when ignored, start to wonder if they're being ignored deliberately. frankly, we are all that fragile at one point or another. i don't think anyone can argue that the community is pretty fragile at the moment, and i think some clarification, always slow to come in this place, could make things a lot better.
i've considered over and over, and vocally, the great possibility that everything is "on the up and up." on the surface, there are tons of problems, and maybe they are smaller than they appear, and maybe we can fix them in a few days. i'm willing to have faith that j_rey's proposal can lead to such changes. consider that i too, am bringing good intentions. i may not be making all the right decisions, but the issue is important, and i'm making the best ones i know how. besides, zero percent of what i said was aimed at you anyway. if you had the concern that i have, what would you do? this thread has come a long, long way, and i don't think it should have to come full circle. but don't be insulted for a stupid question, until i really know the answer.
furthermore, i have always considered your work vital to puppy. don't leave on my behalf, i'll go first. you just let me know when it's gotten to that point, i refuse to be the cause for mark ulrich leaving puppy. i'd would just as soon be stuck with bill-dows for life, than that.
the thing is, there isn't one side to this. puppy was partially created by barry, partially by you, partially by people that may not have even heard of puppylinux. it stands to be created, upgraded, contributed to, by the efforts of thousands or millions of people. people we don't know.
linus could not have seen how many people would transform his os, and neither could barry. i have mentioned barry's generousity again, and again, and again, and again. i can't be more clear than that, mark. i can't be more clear about anything i've said than i have.
but if god forbid, anything happened to barry, no one has the right (but his estate, who for all we know, doesn't know what a linux is) to continue development, except you, and pizzasgood, and the foundation... and the foundation of course is the center of a disaster at the moment.
puppy cannot become unfree... that really doesn't clarify anything. with the utmost respect for your personal work and your personal intentions, maybe it is my german, (doesn't even exist) or your english, or maybe it is emotions that keep us from understanding each other. i can get permission from barry to make a new version of puppy, but i cannot release the entirety- including the startup scripts that make puppy better than dsl and feather- under the gpl. only barry can do that. if truly the only thing in the way of this is changing the name to something that doesn't include the trademark, that's fine. no clarification of this so far. certainly no clarification in the line: "all rights reserved... where not conflicting with other licenses."
the fact that other things like opera are included probably (only a lawyer can tell you, and i'm well aware, again, that puppy has been blessed with compliance) don't bear any relevance. barry could, if he wanted, release a gpl version that anyone could use for any purpose the gpl allowed. i have asked before, and i will ask again, how much would it cost to obtain the right to do so? (minus things such as opera, which barry does not own, and minus things like dillo, which are already under a foss license- PLUS everything that barry has the right to "all rights reserved...")
open source development is not the problem here, mark, the problem is that too many things are not clear. when things are very confusing, you cannot take it too personally that people first ask what is going on, and when ignored, start to wonder if they're being ignored deliberately. frankly, we are all that fragile at one point or another. i don't think anyone can argue that the community is pretty fragile at the moment, and i think some clarification, always slow to come in this place, could make things a lot better.
i've considered over and over, and vocally, the great possibility that everything is "on the up and up." on the surface, there are tons of problems, and maybe they are smaller than they appear, and maybe we can fix them in a few days. i'm willing to have faith that j_rey's proposal can lead to such changes. consider that i too, am bringing good intentions. i may not be making all the right decisions, but the issue is important, and i'm making the best ones i know how. besides, zero percent of what i said was aimed at you anyway. if you had the concern that i have, what would you do? this thread has come a long, long way, and i don't think it should have to come full circle. but don't be insulted for a stupid question, until i really know the answer.
furthermore, i have always considered your work vital to puppy. don't leave on my behalf, i'll go first. you just let me know when it's gotten to that point, i refuse to be the cause for mark ulrich leaving puppy. i'd would just as soon be stuck with bill-dows for life, than that.
sadly, it is not possible to separate politics from free software. free software - politics = unfree software.
as I wrote, that part was not addressed especially on you.
I also have no personal bad feelings for you, in contrast.
But is an issue which is implied in this whole thread, that also has postings with fear or accusations.
So I wanted to clarify this.
Concerning GPL:
Barrys scripts might not be GPL, but are open source.
Keep in mind, that even Gtk+ is not released under the GPL, but the LGPL.
I agree though, that it might be helpful, if Barry would find an officially accepted license like the LGPL for his scripts.
Concerning my programs:
I'm aware, that it was a mistake, not to mention the license for every program.
My intention is to release all my programs for Puppy under the GPL v2 or later, except those, where it is not possible. If there is any doubt for a program, please ask me, then I might repackage it including a license statement.
For example Puppybasic is LGPL, as it is based on wxBasic.
Mark
I also have no personal bad feelings for you, in contrast.
But is an issue which is implied in this whole thread, that also has postings with fear or accusations.
So I wanted to clarify this.
Concerning GPL:
Barrys scripts might not be GPL, but are open source.
Keep in mind, that even Gtk+ is not released under the GPL, but the LGPL.
I agree though, that it might be helpful, if Barry would find an officially accepted license like the LGPL for his scripts.
Concerning my programs:
I'm aware, that it was a mistake, not to mention the license for every program.
My intention is to release all my programs for Puppy under the GPL v2 or later, except those, where it is not possible. If there is any doubt for a program, please ask me, then I might repackage it including a license statement.
For example Puppybasic is LGPL, as it is based on wxBasic.
Mark
Last edited by MU on Wed 24 Jan 2007, 00:49, edited 1 time in total.
concerning leaving open source development, I don't give up so quick.
Also not you would be the reason, I also don't plan it concretely.
But sometimes I get frustrated, and such thoughts go through my head.
It is more a general attitude you sometimes find on websites (Forums, news related discussions).
That really pisses me of, if you see guys who have nothing else to do, than blaming others, without contributing stuff themselves.
The Puppyforum is different, that is one reason why I joined Puppy.
I just hope, that general bad attitude will not become overhand here, because then it would be time for me to go.
But at moment, I see most people being friendly, respectfull, and contributing own time, where I also really am happy if it is not code, but a nice backgroundpicture or some help.
Mark
Also not you would be the reason, I also don't plan it concretely.
But sometimes I get frustrated, and such thoughts go through my head.
It is more a general attitude you sometimes find on websites (Forums, news related discussions).
That really pisses me of, if you see guys who have nothing else to do, than blaming others, without contributing stuff themselves.
The Puppyforum is different, that is one reason why I joined Puppy.
I just hope, that general bad attitude will not become overhand here, because then it would be time for me to go.
But at moment, I see most people being friendly, respectfull, and contributing own time, where I also really am happy if it is not code, but a nice backgroundpicture or some help.
Mark
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Pizzasgood
- Posts: 6183
- Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 20:28
- Location: Knoxville, TN, USA
Actually, I don't think I do. I've never asked permission for anything. I'm not making my own distro out of Puppy, just my own personal sandbox that I upload for testing and for other people to play with, so I don't fall into the permission-needing category.but if god forbid, anything happened to barry, no one has the right (but his estate, who for all we know, doesn't know what a linux is) to continue development, except you, and pizzasgood, and the foundation...
I think Nathan has permission to make Graphpup though.
I don't know if anyone has permission to make an official Puppy at the moment though.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]
that's all i'm looking for.I agree though, that it might be helpfull, if Barry would find an officiall accepted license like the LGPL for his scripts.
Concerning my programs:
I'm aware, that it was a mistake, not to mention the license for every program.
My intention is to release all my programs for Puppy under the GPL v2 or later, except those, where it is not possible. If there is any doubt for a program, please ask me, then I might repackage it including a license stattement.
For example Puppybasic is LGPL, as it is based on wxBasic.
i'm really going to stfu about this for a little while, after this point/post is made, as i have made all the leeway that can hope to be made, and i really was bothered by the idea of your leaving. you should know i'm equally bothered about the idea of barry leaving, although i don't think there's anything we can do to make barry leave or stay. barry is barry.
one of the first things i would add to a gpl distro would be puppybasic, and i don't need to take up still more space to explain that.
my love of computers comes from a few things: firstly, zsoft paintbrush, from 20+ years ago, cloned many times over in mspaint and even kde kolourpaint, (thanks nathan), basica and qbasic, the latter of which is now closed source but gratis, and dos, the last version of windows with which, was 98 or winme.
i have enjoyed using computers for a long, long time. qbasic still works, i have a nice screenshot of grafpup running qbasic emulated. qbasic will never be totally free, neither will windows. the third best dos i ever used is freedos, the second best ms-dos, and the very best dos i ever used was "opendos" by digital, then caldera, then sco.
open, like opendos is great. gratis, like qbasic, is great. the one thing that gives software true longevity, that saves it from early death, is being libre. linux has been around for 17 years roughly, unix for longer, and it has changed the world. my worst fear is that puppy would disappear like my other favorite titles have. it can be made to run strong on its own for 17 years or more to come, or it can be sentenced to early oblivion by the forced obsolescence that comes with being open but not libre, gratis but not libre. libre requires certain formal things be done, which is why you put tools under certain licenses.
it takes vision to see that ahead of time, more than just great code. so i'll continue to make the case, but for now, as promised, i'll stfu. one thing tho, the real puppy? just disappeared one day. i don't want that. i appreciate that there are some safeguards against it. great. i want to help put up more of them. the lack of useful answers has been unsettling in the past, but i can wait a while longer. when the day comes that i am thankfully shown i was truly mistaken, i will be more than happy to apologize for trying too hard. i will be ecstatic.
sadly, it is not possible to separate politics from free software. free software - politics = unfree software.
Like Pizzasgood, I also would not have the right.but if god forbid, anything happened to barry, no one has the right (but his estate, who for all we know, doesn't know what a linux is) to continue development, except you, and pizzasgood, and the foundation...
I contributed programs, that are delivered with Puppy, but this does not automatically allow me to overtake the whole project in case Barry would be no longer.
For Muppy I asked Barry, if he thinks the name is ok.
Not only for legal reasons, but also because of respect for his wish concerning names.
Muppy is a pupplett just as any other.
Mark
there is NOTHING wrong with your english. i was simply saying that it's not always easy to be clear- even with two native speakers, and with a good speaker that's non-native and one that is, it can be still more difficult. for instance, i was saying that for the moment, i will Shut The f*** Up. no one including myself would expect me to do that forever, so i'm just going to rest it a bit, at least with regards to gpl. i've made my case, i've gotten your thoughts on it, and that's all that can be done for the moment. i'd like to continue to help people trying to use puppy, and help people try to transform the foundation into something Still More capable of doing what barry wants it to do. i don't intend to stfu in generalMU wrote:what's that? (sorry, my english)stfu
unless, as i said, it means you leaving.
I received a pm from alienjeff asking me to tell him who banned him from puppylinux.org, when and for what reason.
Actually the post here had been edited just after the ban was impose (not a new post so as not to clustter up the current discussion), inside which the answers to those questions can be found. Anyway, I'm going to answer that once more. I banned alienjeff on 2007 Jan 23 for reasons already stated in this thread. What's more, we already have an interview "Kenneth Hensley of PuppyLinux (from PuppyLinux-Foundation.com)". I don't think we want another interview titled "Alienjeff of PuppyLinux.org (on behalf of PuppyLinux-Foundation and ##puppylinux)". Fyi, banned users can be unbanned anytime once the piracy/faking/name-stealing behaviour mentioned has been corrected.
p.s It seems that someone has registered there to see if he would be banned. If so, then he will have "reasons and grounds" to say there's "bad treatment". Nevermind, you get what you want
Btw, I found that a recent edit of mine on the Wiki had been reverted by the banned Klhrevolutionist (Tor? proxy?). Should I claim that edit as 'bad treatment'? I don't think so.
I'm going to change that page again some time (we don't need a frontpage crowded with 'guides'). By that time I'm sure someone is going to say that's 'bad treatment'
Nevermind. I don't care.
Actually the post here had been edited just after the ban was impose (not a new post so as not to clustter up the current discussion), inside which the answers to those questions can be found. Anyway, I'm going to answer that once more. I banned alienjeff on 2007 Jan 23 for reasons already stated in this thread. What's more, we already have an interview "Kenneth Hensley of PuppyLinux (from PuppyLinux-Foundation.com)". I don't think we want another interview titled "Alienjeff of PuppyLinux.org (on behalf of PuppyLinux-Foundation and ##puppylinux)". Fyi, banned users can be unbanned anytime once the piracy/faking/name-stealing behaviour mentioned has been corrected.
p.s It seems that someone has registered there to see if he would be banned. If so, then he will have "reasons and grounds" to say there's "bad treatment". Nevermind, you get what you want
Btw, I found that a recent edit of mine on the Wiki had been reverted by the banned Klhrevolutionist (Tor? proxy?). Should I claim that edit as 'bad treatment'? I don't think so.
I'm going to change that page again some time (we don't need a frontpage crowded with 'guides'). By that time I'm sure someone is going to say that's 'bad treatment'
Nevermind. I don't care.
Last edited by puppian on Thu 25 Jan 2007, 12:21, edited 3 times in total.
[url=http://puppylinux.org]Puppylinux.org - Community home page of Puppy Linux[/url] hosted by Barry (creator of Puppy), created and maintained by the [url=http://puppylinux.org/user/readarticle.php?article_id=8]Puppy Linux Foundation[/url] since 2005
Here's a joke for everyone's pleasure (again no offense) 
A boy is in the court because he hit the police.
Judge: why did you hit him?
Boy: i received bad treatment from him.
Judge: what's that?
Boy: he wanted to see my identity document. it's censorship! it's power & control of a few!
Judge: my boy, what you did is wrong. you will have to spend some time in the reformatory school so that you can't hit the police again until you learn to be good.
Boy: bad treatment! that's bad treatment! you're treating me as bad as the police did!
Judge : ... (sigh)
A boy is in the court because he hit the police.
Judge: why did you hit him?
Boy: i received bad treatment from him.
Judge: what's that?
Boy: he wanted to see my identity document. it's censorship! it's power & control of a few!
Judge: my boy, what you did is wrong. you will have to spend some time in the reformatory school so that you can't hit the police again until you learn to be good.
Boy: bad treatment! that's bad treatment! you're treating me as bad as the police did!
Judge : ... (sigh)
[url=http://puppylinux.org]Puppylinux.org - Community home page of Puppy Linux[/url] hosted by Barry (creator of Puppy), created and maintained by the [url=http://puppylinux.org/user/readarticle.php?article_id=8]Puppy Linux Foundation[/url] since 2005
BANS on puppylinux.org
Puppian is guilty of the same behavior he accuses me of, and publically displays such on puppylinux.org stating that puppylinux-foundation.com and .org are personal websites set up and/or administered by Ken. This is simply not so. The owner of those domains is someone other than Ken or me, and wishes to remain anonymous.
I intended to paste Puppian's direct quote, however this morning I was not only banned from the member features on puppylinux.org, but also "greeted" with a "403-Forbidden" when simply trying to visit the public access main page. There are a variety of ways I could easily visit the site, but it's too silly and petty to even bother at this point.
Besides, that's not what's at issue here.
Your strong arm tactics will ultimately be your downfall, Puppian. It would be wise for you to consider the words of John Emerich Edward Dalberg, English historian (1834-1902):
[quote]
“And remember, where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I intended to paste Puppian's direct quote, however this morning I was not only banned from the member features on puppylinux.org, but also "greeted" with a "403-Forbidden" when simply trying to visit the public access main page. There are a variety of ways I could easily visit the site, but it's too silly and petty to even bother at this point.
Besides, that's not what's at issue here.
Your strong arm tactics will ultimately be your downfall, Puppian. It would be wise for you to consider the words of John Emerich Edward Dalberg, English historian (1834-1902):
[quote]
“And remember, where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Last edited by alienjeff on Thu 25 Jan 2007, 01:48, edited 1 time in total.
[size=84][i]hangout:[/i] ##b0rked on irc.freenode.net
[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]
[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]
This is one of those cultural differences I was talking about.puppian wrote:Here's a joke for everyone's pleasure (again no offense)
Maybe in your country is OK for police to harras people into showing ID.
Over here, if it is without a valid reason it can be construed as harrasment and the police sued.
So, here, Yes, the boy can be found OK and the police in trouble in that exact case.
[url]http://rarsa.blogspot.com[/url] Covering my eclectic thoughts
[url]http://www.kwlug.org/blog/48[/url] Covering my Linux How-to
[url]http://www.kwlug.org/blog/48[/url] Covering my Linux How-to
The boy can be found OK even if he Hit others? 
anyway...how about this,
A boy is in the court because he stole toys from his neighbours.
Judge: why did you steal them?
Boy: i received bad treatment from the toys owners.
Judge: what's that?
Boy: they don't give me their toys. it's power & control of a few!
Judge: my boy, what you did is wrong. you will have to spend some time in the reformatory school so that you won't be able to steal again and can learn to be good.
Boy: bad treatment! that's bad treatment! you're treating me as bad as my neighbours did!
Judge : ... (sigh)
no offense.
(Even what you said about who's the owner is true, no one ever made it clear to me who is that "owner behind" when I wrote the page. All you can accuse me of is that I made a careless mistake due to insuffient information.)
Moreover, note that I didn't say Ken "own" the domains, this is what I said
anyway...how about this,A boy is in the court because he stole toys from his neighbours.
Judge: why did you steal them?
Boy: i received bad treatment from the toys owners.
Judge: what's that?
Boy: they don't give me their toys. it's power & control of a few!
Judge: my boy, what you did is wrong. you will have to spend some time in the reformatory school so that you won't be able to steal again and can learn to be good.
Boy: bad treatment! that's bad treatment! you're treating me as bad as my neighbours did!
Judge : ... (sigh)
no offense.Then tell me the identity of that owner so that I can edit what I wrote. Otherwise you don't have evidence to show me or anyone what I wrote is incorrect.alienjeff wrote:..publically displays such on puppylinux.org stating that puppylinux-foundation.com and .org are personal websites set up and/or administered by Ken. This is simply not so. The owner of those domains is someone other than Ken or me, and wishes to remain anonymous.
(Even what you said about who's the owner is true, no one ever made it clear to me who is that "owner behind" when I wrote the page. All you can accuse me of is that I made a careless mistake due to insuffient information.)Moreover, note that I didn't say Ken "own" the domains, this is what I said
------websites set up by Kenneth Hensley
alienjeff wrote:Your strong arm tactics...
Thanks.puppian wrote:Fyi, banned users can be unbanned anytime once the faking behaviour mentioned has been corrected.
Last edited by puppian on Thu 25 Jan 2007, 15:48, edited 1 time in total.
[url=http://puppylinux.org]Puppylinux.org - Community home page of Puppy Linux[/url] hosted by Barry (creator of Puppy), created and maintained by the [url=http://puppylinux.org/user/readarticle.php?article_id=8]Puppy Linux Foundation[/url] since 2005
BANS on puppylinux.org
Puppian:
To reiterate: the owner of puppylinux-foundation.com and .org wishes to remain anonymous. For me or anyone other than the owner to reveal his identify would be a violation of trust. Perhaps it's the cultural diffferences that Rarsa spoke of that prevents you from understanding this.
-aj
To reiterate: the owner of puppylinux-foundation.com and .org wishes to remain anonymous. For me or anyone other than the owner to reveal his identify would be a violation of trust. Perhaps it's the cultural diffferences that Rarsa spoke of that prevents you from understanding this.
-aj
[size=84][i]hangout:[/i] ##b0rked on irc.freenode.net
[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]
[i]diversion:[/i] [url]http://alienjeff.net[/url] - visit The Fringe
[i]quote:[/i] "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker[/size]
bans on puppylinux.org as a result of piracy
> For me or anyone other than the owner to reveal his identify would be a violation of trust.
Sorry, then all you can do is to request him to reveal that for you.
Btw, please don't attack my culture. My culture values trust too. Thanks.
Sorry, then all you can do is to request him to reveal that for you.
Btw, please don't attack my culture. My culture values trust too. Thanks.
[url=http://puppylinux.org]Puppylinux.org - Community home page of Puppy Linux[/url] hosted by Barry (creator of Puppy), created and maintained by the [url=http://puppylinux.org/user/readarticle.php?article_id=8]Puppy Linux Foundation[/url] since 2005
Re: bans on puppylinux.org as a result of piracy
Oh, I think he was refering to Privacy, not trust.puppian wrote:My culture values trust too. Thanks.
[url]http://rarsa.blogspot.com[/url] Covering my eclectic thoughts
[url]http://www.kwlug.org/blog/48[/url] Covering my Linux How-to
[url]http://www.kwlug.org/blog/48[/url] Covering my Linux How-to