Fatdog64-710 Final [4 Dec 2016]

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drunkjedi
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Re: 10 min review of fatdog

#301 Post by drunkjedi »

steff99 wrote:I also love thunar file manager and the xfce desktop. I tired multiple times to get that working but it was impossible. perhaps a derivitive would go well?
Our friend Gobbi has posted an sfs file for xfce desktop in our contributed software thread.
See following link.
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 746#947746

jamesbond
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#302 Post by jamesbond »

@drunkjedi - thanks for the info.

@stemsee: What do you want to know? I've some info here: http://lightofdawn.org/wiki/wiki.cgi/SonyLinuxUefiBoot.
Fatdog64 forum links: [url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=117546]Latest version[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/ke8sn5H]Contributed packages[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/se8scrb]ISO builder[/url]

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SFR
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#303 Post by SFR »

[color=red][size=75][O]bdurate [R]ules [D]estroy [E]nthusiastic [R]ebels => [C]reative [H]umans [A]lways [O]pen [S]ource[/size][/color]
[b][color=green]Omnia mea mecum porto.[/color][/b]

jamesbond
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#304 Post by jamesbond »

Nice review. Thank you for the info.
Fatdog64 forum links: [url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=117546]Latest version[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/ke8sn5H]Contributed packages[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/se8scrb]ISO builder[/url]

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dr. Dan
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#305 Post by dr. Dan »

@jamesbond: Thanks for the getjava update! Will xfe be updated soon? There's a useful bug fix.

I've modified that battery script, in hopes of greater usability. Anyone's feedback will be appreciated.

Dan
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_gg
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Re: Question about humongous initrd and base sfs file sizes

#306 Post by _gg »

jd7654 wrote: And I always split out the fd64.sfs from the humongous initrd due to the booting being so painfully slow on all the machines I tried it on.
Furthermore, netbooks like Acer Aspire ES1-132 with UEFI don't load humungous initrd at all, resulting in "error: couldn't find suitable memory target", but small initrd loads OK. Since this netbook model requires at least 4.9 kernel (yet last available for Fatdog 710 is 4.7.1) the new Fatdog release IMHO shall have small initrd on ISO.

Also, according to this: https://community.acer.com/t5/E-F-and-M ... rue#M15238 EFI install is specific for these models.

Regards

jamesbond
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#307 Post by jamesbond »

Furthermore, netbooks like Acer Aspire ES1-132 with UEFI don't load humungous initrd at all, resulting in "error: couldn't find suitable memory target", but small initrd loads OK.
Curious, since it has 2G of memory. But it is what it is, some UEFI implemention is really odd.
Since this netbook model requires at least 4.9 kernel (yet last available for Fatdog 710 is 4.7.1) the new Fatdog release IMHO shall have small initrd on ISO.
We don't have a kernel higher than 4.4.x yet. Anything higher than 4.4.x are actually "test" kernels; and all of them have problems one or another. Kirk may be coming out to compile newer kernels soon.
Also, according to this: https://community.acer.com/t5/E-F-and-M ... rue#M15238 EFI install is specific for these models.
Tell me about it .... all UEFI BIOS **have** problems one way or another.


@Dr. Dan: I will test your script (in time ... hopefully soon).

I've uploaded the latest XFE. It requires updated FOX toolkit too, make sure you get 1.6.53 (if you do it from gslapt this should be automatic).
Fatdog64 forum links: [url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=117546]Latest version[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/ke8sn5H]Contributed packages[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/se8scrb]ISO builder[/url]

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_gg
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#308 Post by _gg »

jamesbond wrote: all UEFI BIOS **have** problems one way or another.
fyi here is full log of my experiment:
1) i dd'ed official fatdog710 iso to flash drive.
2) booted it as usb hdd.
3) passed refind efi menu then grub menu.
4) at stage of loading initrd: "error: couldn't find suitable memory target" and kernel panic about missing initrd after 2 minutes of blank screen.
5) remastered iso with small initrd and dd'ed to flash.
6) new iso wasn't "visible" to uefi.
7) dd'ed official fatdog710 iso back to that flash drive.
8 ) copied vmlinuz, small initrd and fd64.sfs to another flash drive.
9) booted and at stage of grub manually specified boot from second flash drive via cli with args "basesfs=device:sdc1:fd64.sfs"
10) blank screen for more than 10 mins.
11) downloaded fatdog boot images for another kernels, repacked initrd with kernel_modules.sfs, copied to second flash drive and tried to boot them.
12) after several fails with other kernels, fatdog with kernel 4.7.1 boot succeeded after 2 mins of blinking cursor (which was different from blank screens from another kernels).
13) boot was very slow but finally resulted in X started.
14) as hardware is more newer than kernel, got mesa/gallium emulation of dri and not functional touchpad.

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prehistoric
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#309 Post by prehistoric »

Once again I have a problem with Fatdog 710 networking.

Background: After recovering data from a hard disk crash, I discovered that the software I was using to reconstruct the system insisted I had to put a GPT label on a 3 TB disk, which I had previously been using with a MSDOS label that only allowed access to 2 TB. The wasted space was not a big issue for me, but the new disk meant it would not boot with the old BIOS on the old machine. I moved the system that I had configured to a newer machine, and set about changing the video and networking.

There is no question about the hardware in this case. The gigabit Ethernet on the newer machine works just fine, even on Fatdog 710 booted with "savefile=none". My problem is how to make Fatdog 710 completely forget about previous networking, so I can set it up from scratch.

At the moment I am running Fatdog 710 and using a USB WiFi adapter to connect, even though I have a functional wired connection. The help documentation seems positively misleading when it comes to changing from one wired connection to a different one without reinstalling from scratch.

jamesbond
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#310 Post by jamesbond »

@_gg: Thank you for listing the steps.

step 4) how much memory does the Acer has? I have a 1GB e-Machine network (also by Acer) which boots with huge initrd. Not saying that it is not a problem, it is; I just want to highlight that some firmware are problematic by nature.

step 5 and 6) I'm surprised to hear that this fails for you. I tested a remaster, including nothing except the basesfs, and I don't edit anything; and choose "small initrd". The resulting ISO is a triple-hybrid ISO like the original and boots on BIOS and UEFI either as ISO, or as "dd"-ed flash drive. I tested this in qemu, again, in real hardware it could be different. But usually qemu is quite good to catch problems like this.

step 9) is exactly one of the reason why I favour huge initrd. Small initrd requires the initrd to find the location of the basesfs; and there are tons of reason why this search can fail.

step 14) yes, if the hardware is newer than the kernel then you definitely needs a new kernel.
Fatdog64 forum links: [url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=117546]Latest version[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/ke8sn5H]Contributed packages[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/se8scrb]ISO builder[/url]

jamesbond
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#311 Post by jamesbond »

@prehistoric:
The help documentation seems positively misleading when it comes to changing from one wired connection to a different one without reinstalling from scratch.
Indeed. The existing documentation still talks about the old Dougal's "Network Wizard" which has been replaced with "Network Setup". This badly needs updating. The reason for not updating (apart from us being laziness :lol:) is that we'd like to hear problem cases so we can write down the solution for the most common problems.
The gigabit Ethernet on the newer machine works just fine, even on Fatdog 710 booted with "savefile=none". My problem is how to make Fatdog 710 completely forget about previous networking, so I can set it up from scratch.
Okay. Let me try to de-mystify this for you.

There are 3 components to "network" persistence (or problems).
First there is udev.
Second there is network-setup.
Third there is WPA GUI.

udev is used by all network stack and is most likely your culprit.
Network-setup is used by wired connection, and by WiFi too if you want to use static IP.
WPA GUI is used only for WiFi with DHCP; and also auto-DHCP for the first wired interface.

_________________

Udev starts by detecting network interface and **recording what it finds** in a file in /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules (Note: the actual location of this file **CHANGES** with every udev version, what I write here is valid for Fatdog64 710). Whatever is found first, is recorded as eth0 and wlan0.

If you move to another machine with an existing flash drive, it will find a new interface (say, wired one). It can't assign "eth0" to the new interface, because, well, in its record there is already an existing eth0. So it will create a new interesting "ethXXX" interface which can range from eth1, eth124, or any other random number. (Same with wlan).

How to make sure udev restarts counting from eth0 again? By deleting that /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-net.rules file and rebooting.

__________________

Network-Setup is used for assigning IP address to multiple interfaces, wired or wireless.
It is also used to assign static IP addresses.
It has a UI to view existing configuration or to delete them.

For wired, all you have to do is choose the first menu "Configure IP Address" and be done with it.
For wireless, you do the same thing as above, and then choose the second menu "Configure access profile" to configure how we access the wireless (WPA, WPA2, password, etc).

Network-Setup remembers configuration by its interface name. E.g. you configure it for eth0, or for wlan0. If the interface name changes, it will not know how to configure it. E.g. If you configure eth0 in one machine, and bring the flash drive to another, and because of "udev effect" the wired interface on the new machine is now called "eth124", Network-Setup will not see that new configuration (because the configuration it knows is only for eth0). You will need to configure again.

Note 1: that Network-Setup does **NOT** provide auto-DHCP connection for the first wired interface.
You have to configure it, if you want to use it.

Note 2: Network-Setup co-exists with WPA GUI. By default, it will **NOT** configure any wireless interface, even if you ask for it; because it assumes that WPA GUI will take care of that. To let it manage wireless interface, you have to disable WPA GUI.

I don't know how prevalent the static IP is these days. I remember Sage always uses Static IP; but most of the people I know seem to be on DHCP.

_____________________


WPA GUI configures the wireless for DHCP.
Configuration is done by clicking the wireless icon on the system tray.
It also perform DHCP on the first found wired interface, whatever it is.

You can disable WPA GUI by running Network Setup and choose "Disable WPA GUI" item (requires restart).
After you do this, WPA GUI will totally be dead, and everything must be done through Network Setup.

As I said earlier, Network Setup does not do anything to un-configured interface, if you want DHCP for your wired connection you have to configure it.

Note that WPA GUI stores its wireless configuration by SSID only. It does not keep the interface name. It will happily use whatever the first wireless interface it can find, if any. So a configuration for wlan0 will work nicely for wlan4 too (if the machine only has "wlan4" and nothing else). Same with auto-DHCP - the first wired interface found will be used, whatever the name is.

To clear WPA GUI configuration, you just go into the GUI, click the second tab "Manage Networks" and delete them.
Fatdog64 forum links: [url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=117546]Latest version[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/ke8sn5H]Contributed packages[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/se8scrb]ISO builder[/url]

mini-jaguar
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#312 Post by mini-jaguar »

I know it's not compatible with the FatDog64 600 series, but it loaded from the hard disk with the same menu and it worked fine.

It's probably been covered before, but why won't it boot from a USB drive?

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prehistoric
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#313 Post by prehistoric »

@jamesbond,

Thanks! I'm now back on that system using the new wired interface.

(By the way if you want to learn about an actual secret agent that Ian Fleming knew when he worked for MI6 you might read Zig Zag, which describes one of the more colorful double agents. Others were "Garbo" and "Tricycle". If you want to understand how the U.K. used double agents I recommend Masterman's The Doublecross System of Warfare. Fleming himself was less successful than James Bond. The one time in a c*a*s*i*n*o in Portugal he tried to gamble against Nazi agents he lost his money, and his superior held onto his return airline ticket to make sure he wouldn't pawn that to try again. James Bond started off as fantasy and became less believable as time went on.)

In order to follow your instructions I had to delete not just 70-persistent-net.rules, but also 80-oldpersistent-net.rules. To avoid problems from doing this from a running system, I booted into tahrpup64 6.0.6 and deleted the files in the inactive Fatdog 710 save folder "/etc/udev/rules.d". When I rebooted, the wired network was reconfigured as eth0. I didn't have to tell it to use DHCP, it just came up working.

I'm still not clear on what the damn Network Wizard is telling me. What difference does it make if an interface is "associated" or "activated" if it is impossible to send network traffic across it? How can I tell if the system does or does not have a kernel module for the interface device? Suppose everything in Fatdog is correct, but the device on the other end of the line is having trouble with DHCP. How do you isolate the problem? These are not hypothetical concerns, I've been there.

To avoid ticking off any number of people who do not spend all their free time solving puzzles please consider at least a button that resets everything to do with networking. It should not even require a reboot.

Sage
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#314 Post by Sage »

deleted the files in the inactive *?other distros?* save folder "/etc/udev/rules.d". When I rebooted, the wired network was reconfigured as eth0.
Wondering how general this fix is for other distros? I occasionally find a phantom network show up. I think it can happen if I install on e.g. a machine with a wifi connection and then transfer the HD to a machine with a wired NIC. Can dynamically delete one of the alleged connections but it's never persistent.

LateAdopter
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#315 Post by LateAdopter »

Hello _gg

If you have Intel hardware that is newer than the kernel, you will probably need the kernel parameter
CORRECTED

Code: Select all

i915.preliminary_hw_support=1
to get the Intel display driver to load.
Last edited by LateAdopter on Mon 27 Mar 2017, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.

disciple
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#316 Post by disciple »

Hi guys,
I've been using Fatdog a little lately, pretty much for the first time - good job with it.

I'd be surprised if someone hasn't mentioned this before, but here goes:

I followed the instructions to install to a usb stick and use fix-usb.sh*
I used the remaining space on the drive to create a VFAT partition.
But it turns out "Windows... won't recognize more than one partition on a USB drive unless it has a certain bit set declaring it a USB-HDD".
So I should have just created an linux filesystem.
I'm a bit lost on why this install method works the way it does though. Why not just have one filesystem on the USB stick? Is it a necessary consequence of trying to just use an iso image?

*Incidentally, the first time around the stick wasn't bootable, so, wondering if there was a step missing from the instructions, I erased it, used Gparted to create a new partition and make that bootable, then started again. This seemed to work.
Do you know a good gtkdialog program? Please post a link here

Classic Puppy quotes

ROOT FOREVER
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LateAdopter
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#317 Post by LateAdopter »

Hello disciple
Windows gives you the first partition in the partition table, but it doesn't have to be first on the disk. If you can edit the partition table to reverse the order of the partitions, Windows would give you the FAT partiton.

When I put fatdog 710 on a new SD card I did a manual frugal install. so I don't have that problem:

write mbr.bin to the MBR using "cat"
mark the original partition as active
install G4D to the PBS
Copy fatdog files various including with fd64 and kernel modules pulled out
Add various fatdog entries to menu.lst.

Boot times over USB3:
34 seconds boot time with homogeneous initrd
16 sec with fd64.sfs and kernel-modules.sfs pulled out
22 sec with fd64.sfs out and loaded into ram, kernel-modules out.

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_gg
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#318 Post by _gg »

jamesbond wrote: step 4) how much memory does the Acer has?
This one has 4GB RAM.
jamesbond wrote: step 5 and 6) ... The resulting ISO is a triple-hybrid ISO like the original and boots on BIOS and UEFI
I think it's some bug as fdisk doesn't see it properly as original:
Remastered:

Code: Select all

$ losetup -f remaster-2017-03-23.iso
$ fdisk -l /dev/loop3

Disk /dev/loop3: 547 MiB, 573571072 bytes, 1120256 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disklabel type: dos
Disk identifier: 0x08f0e4e1

Device       Boot Start     End Sectors  Size Id Type
/dev/loop3p1 *       64 1120255 1120192  547M 17 Hidden HPFS/NTFS
(size is bigger as I also included devx sfs)

Original:

Code: Select all

$ losetup -f Fatdog64-710.iso
$ fdisk -l /dev/loop4

Disk /dev/loop4: 360 MiB, 377487360 bytes, 737280 sectors
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disklabel type: dos
Disk identifier: 0x705b87c5

Device       Boot Start    End Sectors  Size Id Type
/dev/loop4p1 *        0 737279  737280  360M  0 Empty
/dev/loop4p2        116  20595   20480   10M ef EFI (FAT-12/16/32)
jamesbond wrote: step 9) ... there are tons of reason why this search can fail.
The one like below was working with my 2 flash drives.

Code: Select all

search.fs_label FATDOG_LIVE --set
linux /vmlinuz waitdev=5 basesfs=label:FATDOG_LIVE:fd64.sfs savefile=none
initrd /initrd
LateAdopter wrote: i915.preliminary_hardware_support=1
thanks. will try
prehistoric wrote: I have a problem with Fatdog 710 networking
Also, about my using Fatdog I encountered 2 basic problems with networking:

1) when wired cable is replugged, IP is sometimes reset and DHCP doesn't automatically bring it back. using `dhcpcd eth0` helps.

2) when laptop is resumed from power suspend, it got the IP of last successful WIFI connection sticky and if you wake up in different wireless network it doesn't change IP until you manually reset it with `ifconfig wlan0 inet 0.0.0.0`.

jamesbond
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#319 Post by jamesbond »

@prehistoric:
Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll check it out.
In order to follow your instructions I had to delete not just 70-persistent-net.rules, but also 80-oldpersistent-net.rules. To avoid problems from doing this from a running system, I booted into tahrpup64 6.0.6 and deleted the files in the inactive Fatdog 710 save folder "/etc/udev/rules.d". When I rebooted, the wired network was reconfigured as eth0. I didn't have to tell it to use DHCP, it just came up working.
It is safe to do so from running Fatdog. You just need to reboot afterwards.
Even without deleting those stuff, you should already get DHCP. The fact that you don't, is curious.
I have an inkling of what happens, but I will need to do further checks.

Btw I'm not sure where you get that "80-oldpersistent-net.rules" from.
I'm still not clear on what the damn Network Wizard is telling me. What difference does it make if an interface is "associated" or "activated" if it is impossible to send network traffic across it?
"Assosciated" is for Wifi only. It means the wifi adapter has connected to the wifi router.
"Activated" is for Network Setup only - it means that the network configuration chosen has been activated.

There are many other reasons why the network fails to connect.
---
"Associated" but no IP address (DHCP fails) => no connection.
"Activated" with static IP address but wrong IP range => no connection
IP good but router bad ==> can only ping to router, but not to Internet, etc.
How can I tell if the system does or does not have a kernel module for the interface device?
No network interface will show up.
Suppose everything in Fatdog is correct, but the device on the other end of the line is having trouble with DHCP. How do you isolate the problem? These are not hypothetical concerns, I've been there.
The usual tools. Ping, etc. How do you detect if your network cable has a kink which sometimes connect and sometimes not (assuming you don't have network cable tracer)?
To avoid ticking off any number of people who do not spend all their free time solving puzzles please consider at least a button that resets everything to do with networking. It should not even require a reboot.
Yes, that's a good idea. Suggestion is being considered.

@Sage:
Wondering how general this fix is for other distros? I occasionally find a phantom network show up. I think it can happen if I install on e.g. a machine with a wifi connection and then transfer the HD to a machine with a wired NIC. Can dynamically delete one of the alleged connections but it's never persistent.
It is general in its idea, but not necessarily in the details. See: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Softwa ... faceNames/

Different version of udev/systemd requires different names for disabling certain stuff.
In eudev it is 80-net-name-slot.rules. Or you can use net.ifnames=0 on boot parameter.
But only when compiled in a certain way.
Deleting 70-persistent-net.rules is another way, when compiled with rule generator.
I'm confusing you, aren't I?

@disciple:
I followed the instructions to install to a usb stick and use fix-usb.sh*
That's the quick install method, yes.
I used the remaining space on the drive to create a VFAT partition.
This is so we still use the remaining space.
But it turns out "Windows... won't recognize more than one partition on a USB drive unless it has a certain bit set declaring it a USB-HDD".
In fact, this is a good way to hide data from Windows :)
I'm a bit lost on why this install method works the way it does though. Why not just have one filesystem on the USB stick? Is it a necessary consequence of trying to just use an iso image?
This is because the "image" is an triple-hybrid ISO image.
1. It's an ISO, and will boot when burned to a CD/DVD.
2. It's a harddisk image, with MBR. The MBR has 2 partitions:
a) 1st partition representing the ISO itself. Used for booting on BIOS systems
b) 2nd partition represents the efiboot.img, containing UEFI boot files.
*Incidentally, the first time around the stick wasn't bootable, so, wondering if there was a step missing from the instructions, I erased it, used Gparted to create a new partition and make that bootable, then started again. This seemed to work.
Really? If you dd-it straight away, it should work.

Anyway, if you want to create a USB that can share data with Windows, there are a few ways you can do that:
a) Create one big FAT32 partition covering the whole drive.
b) Create first FAT32 partition which you can use to share data with Windows, and create a 2nd partition where you install Fatdog.

@LateAdopter: thanks for the additional information.

@_gg:
I think it's some bug as fdisk doesn't see it properly as original:
That's definitely a bug. It could be that your're running out of space when creating the remaster?

Also, I see that your remaster is 547M in size. If you use UEFI, this **WILL NOT WORK** due to a silly bug: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=109891.
1) when wired cable is replugged, IP is sometimes reset and DHCP doesn't automatically bring it back. using `dhcpcd eth0` helps.
Did you use network-setup to do this, or did you depend on auto-DHCP (that is, no configuration at all?)
2) when laptop is resumed from power suspend, it got the IP of last successful WIFI connection sticky and if you wake up in different wireless network it doesn't change IP until you manually reset it with `ifconfig wlan0 inet 0.0.0.0`.
I never suspend. Suspend doesn't work on my laptop, so I can't test this. Which wifi manager do you use, WPA GUI or network setup?
Fatdog64 forum links: [url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=117546]Latest version[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/ke8sn5H]Contributed packages[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/se8scrb]ISO builder[/url]

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prehistoric
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#320 Post by prehistoric »

@jamesbond

At the risk of antagonizing you, which I am not trying to do, I want to point out that a considerable part of your explanation depends on knowing the code which implements networking. (Myself, I'm deliberately staying out of code.) Nothing visible to a user dependent on the GUI will tell them that "associated" means the wifi adapter has connected to the wireless router. Even knowing that "activated" applies only to the network wizard and a particular configuration chosen still leaves me at the point of learning that "activated" means "activated".

(This kind of explanation is typical of what people whose minds inhabit the world of code produce under the impression they are conveying information. I know because I've been there and done this when I was a young whippersnapper. When people think you are a genius because they have no idea what you are talking about you should take that as a warning.)

I'm not arguing that I can't (eventually) figure this out, I'm trying to tell you what will happen when someone who does not read code runs into problems. You need to run user interface behavior by naive users who do not code. If your default is to do everything from the command line when there is a problem, then you need to document that first, before you simplify some matters with convenient user interfaces.

(I'll confess that this is a technique I used when managing programmers. They hated documentation so much that I often got much improved code as a result of requiring documentation for problems the code could not handle.)

Other parts of your explanation depend on dropping down to the command line to debug network problems, which is not really acceptable to most people. Even the clunky old Dougal network set up could tell me the failure was at the level of DHCP without using the command line. Such failures are surprisingly common in practice. (Ever get the wrong cable plugged in?)

When it comes to kernel modules, simply having no interface appear is hardly adequate feedback. I'm used to seeing a list of modules, and the name of the module used when the system finds a networking device. This makes it much easier to isolate the offending code when asking for help, even from someone who did not build this system. Knowing that the system is trying to use an RTL8139C produces much better searches than "something wrong with Fatdog networking." The problem may have nothing to do with Fatdog and James, and you do not want to become a clearinghouse for problems caused by others. Believe me, there are many, many obscure bugs in network interfaces that only show up under some peculiar conditions, as I suspect you know.

Like you, I don't understand why I could not connect using eth1 and DHCP after I switched machines. I suspect the problem is that some piece of code decided this was really eth0, since there was only one such device on the machine, while others called it eth1, but that is only a guess.

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