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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Best of two worlds, puppylinux on WSL?
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bark_bark_bark

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Posts: 1921
Location: Wisconsin USA

PostPosted: Wed 30 Nov 2016, 13:45    Post subject:  Best of two worlds, puppylinux on WSL?
Subject description: could it be done?
 

Would it be possible to run puppy linux on Windows Subsystem for Linux. I don't run Windows 10 myself, but I think it would be a neat idea. I've seen people get Fedora and Arch Linux running with WSL, so why not Puppy?

Helpful links:
https://github.com/alwsl/alwsl
https://github.com/RoliSoft/WSL-Distribution-Switcher

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 11:46    Post subject:  

Why? WSL is bad for business. Win$ is the most attacked system in the world due to its pervasiveness. WSL just opens another front, which will entice people to attack it via the ELF interface. Unfortunately we Linux folks can easily becomes collateral damage in between Evil or Very Mad

(In case it's not clear: Ubuntu is probably not targeted in the past because it's not worth targetting. With Ubuntu being part of Windows in WSL, more people now have incentives to find loopholes in Ubuntu so they can gain access to Windows. They can attempt to attack Ubuntu native, or Ubuntu WSL, doesn't matter, the end result is more people working to attack Ubuntu (and Linux in general) because by being associated with the largest virus host on the planet, it has now become a worthwhile target too).

Our freedom to run Linux without antivirus is about to end in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

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greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
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Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 12:16    Post subject:  

jamesbond wrote:
Our freedom to run Linux without antivirus is about to end in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
I am thinking that it is time to learn how to strip puppy linux back to the absolute essential code that is required to get a users own system to boot and do exactly (and only) what that user wants.

I am not talking specifically about "barebones" types of puppy - they often don't seem to boot, or lack essential features - I am more thinking of a fully configured (ie heaps of wifi fware etc etc) puppy that also incorporates the ability to "strip away" un-needed or unused functionality after booting and configuration has been completed.

A bit like Technosauruses zdrv cutter - but for all system utilities as well as fware.

eg: does your puppy actually need wget? curl? ssh? etc etc

The less code that is running (or available to be run) then surely the more likelihood of the system being secure I would have thought.

Each component could then be examined for it's inherent safety and only trim code with no security holes could be selected. (would this mean drop bash in favour of ash?). Maybe it would not be puppy linux any more but I feel it has become necessary to fork linux away from the windows-style updates and antivirus regime which appears to be in the wind for linux.
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bark_bark_bark

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 13:02    Post subject:  

I get what you're saying about security. But is anti-virus truly needed in the first place? Many people are able to run Windows just fine without the need of anti-virus.
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jamesbond

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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2016, 02:31    Post subject:  

@greengeek: I'm a bit rusty in my knowledge about Puppy's inner workings, but what you want can be done, if:
a) the puppy in question has a record of what packages got installed during the build process - CHECK! (many puppies do these days).
b) the installed packages are recorded in an identical manner to a package installed after installation - WANTED (many puppies recorded the "built-in" packages in a separate package registry, so it cannot be easily uninstalled by the standard package manager) - I may be wrong on this.
c) have some sort of command-line package manager which can be "scripted" to quickly remove unnecessary packages - IN PROGRESS (I understand "jlst" is doing stuff like this in Woof-CE).

That being said - unless you remaster the resulting Puppy, and use the remaster instead of the original, deleted files aren't actually deleted, they're just hidden ... and can still be accessed if one knows the secret path (actually not so secret, it's /initrd/pup_ro2).

@bark3: anti-virus is a part of defense-in-depth. Running Windows without AV is possible, but it requires eternal vigilance. Make one mistake and you're pwned. Although the most common way to catch a malware is still through social engineering, these days you can get it through unassuming actions, e.g. via drive-by downloads, by forgetting to update flash, malicious embedded font/embedded pictures in emails? Etc.

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greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2016, 03:51    Post subject:  

bark_bark_bark wrote:
Many people are able to run Windows just fine without the need of anti-virus.
I reckon that most people don't actually know when they have a virus. Often there may be a slight slowdown of CPU function and the occasional flash of the network icon and those are the only symptoms.

Unfortunately as time has gone on Linux has become a threat to state governments and anyone else who wants to spy on users, so a lot of effort has gone into hijacking Linux code. Tthere is a lot to be gained by hijacking the massive number of Linux driven web servers that drive the internet, and also the fastest supercomputers use linux too - especially the Chinese ones (eg Sunway TaihuLight and Tianhe-2).

With so much to be gained by jailbreaking Linux code it is no longer as easy as it used to be to protect our Linux systems. The money-minded thieving hackers don't care too much about us, but government agencies do, and they have immense resources to split Linux wide open.
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drunkjedi


Joined: 24 May 2015
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2016, 05:33    Post subject:  

jamesbond wrote:
Our freedom to run Linux without antivirus is about to end in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
I just came across This news.
May be you guys already know it, but hell, I am surprised and sceptical.
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2016, 09:59    Post subject:  

drunkjedi wrote:

May be you guys already know it, but hell, I am surprised and sceptical.

Yes I've heard about it. I'm writing an article in my blog about it (not finished yet, only part I is published, out of 5 parts).

It's part of the game they play. They have been at it for a long time now. Remember who celebrated Debian Jessie launch? Of course.
Do you know who are the active developers of "git" these days? Yes, "git", the SCM system used to manage Linux kernel source code?
Do you think that MS throw good money to make WSL, just so that a bunch of developers can have the convenience of testing their Linux software without having to fire up a Linux VM? Or even, as a marketing tool for their Azure cloud?

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bark_bark_bark

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2016, 11:40    Post subject:  

jamesbond wrote:
@bark3: anti-virus is a part of defense-in-depth. Running Windows without AV is possible, but it requires eternal vigilance. Make one mistake and you're pwned. Although the most common way to catch a malware is still through social engineering, these days you can get it through unassuming actions, e.g. via drive-by downloads, by forgetting to update flash, malicious embedded font/embedded pictures in emails? Etc.


You don't need anti-virus for that, you just need a secure browser (like Pale Moon), and a good ad-blocker. Also, my mail program blocks remote content by default and I set it to view all emails in plaintext.

BTW, speaking of drive-by downloads, Chrome (and chromium/chrome-based browsers) are all vulnerable to drive-by downloads.

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jamesbond

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PostPosted: Thu 08 Dec 2016, 09:46    Post subject:  

bark_bark_bark wrote:
You don't need anti-virus for that, you just need a secure browser (like Pale Moon), and a good ad-blocker. Also, my mail program blocks remote content by default and I set it to view all emails in plaintext.
You have taken good precaution. But it takes one bug in Palemoon and your defense is broken. AV is a second line of defense. You might say that well that's the same thing could happen in Linux; and I would totally agree. The only difference is that - as greengeek pointed out - we're not being targeted (yet) because we're too small.

Quote:
BTW, speaking of drive-by downloads, Chrome (and chromium/chrome-based browsers) are all vulnerable to drive-by downloads.
Exactly my point - to live AV free on Windows, you need constant vigilance because one oops means you're pwned.
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bark_bark_bark

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PostPosted: Wed 12 Apr 2017, 09:10    Post subject:  

bump
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bark_bark_bark

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PostPosted: Wed 12 Apr 2017, 09:11    Post subject:  

I would still like to see some way to run Puppy in WSL, but I'd settle for the ability to install popular puppylinux programs in WSL. Has anybody gotten puppylinux programs like pmusic to run directly on Ubuntu 16.04?
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