Vaccination should be a choice. Believe it or not they DO harm some people.Galbi wrote:Let's fight them...
The anti-vaccine thread
My daughter...
Who has a degree in Biology...
And works at Edinburgh University as a "Research Associate" [research into diseases]...
Doesn't like vaccination.
She says it messes [possibly in a bad way] with the immune system.
Recons that's why there are so many disorders of the immune system around these days [e.g. Autoimmune Disease].
She has "Hashimoto's Disease".
Who has a degree in Biology...
And works at Edinburgh University as a "Research Associate" [research into diseases]...
Doesn't like vaccination.
She says it messes [possibly in a bad way] with the immune system.
Recons that's why there are so many disorders of the immune system around these days [e.g. Autoimmune Disease].
She has "Hashimoto's Disease".
Louis Pasteur made a statement on his deathbed recanting his belief in the specific danger posed by microbes.
This website has a good comparison of the "germ" theory versus the "terrain" theory:
http://www.susandoreydesigns.com/insigh ... ecant.html
Vaccination and immunity are two different things.
Reliance on antibiotics works ok for a period of time, but is eventually overtaken by nature. The same can be said of vaccination as an attempt to generate immunity - it appears to work (for some of the people) some of the time - but in the fullness of time is overtaken by nature. A comparison of pertussis immunity from vaccination versus exposure reveals the problem.
Had whooping cough lately? Around the Pacific rim it is currently being spread by vaccinated people. I doubt if there is any disease that can be permanently eliminated by vaccination.
This website has a good comparison of the "germ" theory versus the "terrain" theory:
http://www.susandoreydesigns.com/insigh ... ecant.html
Vaccination and immunity are two different things.
Reliance on antibiotics works ok for a period of time, but is eventually overtaken by nature. The same can be said of vaccination as an attempt to generate immunity - it appears to work (for some of the people) some of the time - but in the fullness of time is overtaken by nature. A comparison of pertussis immunity from vaccination versus exposure reveals the problem.
Had whooping cough lately? Around the Pacific rim it is currently being spread by vaccinated people. I doubt if there is any disease that can be permanently eliminated by vaccination.
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As a keen gardener...
I like the sound of this "Terrain" theory.
To me...
A healthy garden seems like a healthy body.
Many things need to be just right...
Particularly the state of the terrain/environment, to keep all of it "whole"/well.
The predator/prey relationship is of interest.
Normally, predators never totally eliminate their prey; by doing so they would eliminate themselves.
Predators are themselves part of the terrain.
I have some very healthy predators in my very healthy garden/terrain.
The slugs, snails, birds, and me are all doing rather well on my strawberries.
We all get our share.
The wild hedgehogs are doing well also, presumably on the slugs and snails they eat.
But they don't eat enough slugs/snails, so I hunt and kill the slugs/snails [don't eat them][drown them in salted washing-up water] on wet evenings in the dark, when they are out [mating?] on the paving slabs.
Do viruses prey upon red blood cells to thrive and multiply?
I like the sound of this "Terrain" theory.
To me...
A healthy garden seems like a healthy body.
Many things need to be just right...
Particularly the state of the terrain/environment, to keep all of it "whole"/well.
The predator/prey relationship is of interest.
Normally, predators never totally eliminate their prey; by doing so they would eliminate themselves.
Predators are themselves part of the terrain.
I have some very healthy predators in my very healthy garden/terrain.
The slugs, snails, birds, and me are all doing rather well on my strawberries.
We all get our share.
The wild hedgehogs are doing well also, presumably on the slugs and snails they eat.
But they don't eat enough slugs/snails, so I hunt and kill the slugs/snails [don't eat them][drown them in salted washing-up water] on wet evenings in the dark, when they are out [mating?] on the paving slabs.
Do viruses prey upon red blood cells to thrive and multiply?
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perdido
- Posts: 1528
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When I was a kid we all got mumps, measles and chicken pox.
I think they used to scratch us to check for p̶o̶l̶i̶o̶ TB. We all survived our youth as far as I remember.
I don't think there were required shots back then, or if they were even available.
Don't recall anyone having autism. Nobody.
Nobody taking pills or needing medication in school.
Strange how things have changed.
I think they used to scratch us to check for p̶o̶l̶i̶o̶ TB. We all survived our youth as far as I remember.
I don't think there were required shots back then, or if they were even available.
Don't recall anyone having autism. Nobody.
Nobody taking pills or needing medication in school.
Strange how things have changed.
Last edited by perdido on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 18:52, edited 1 time in total.
Just a note to clarify things - I did not start this thread. The original picture that started the thread was in the "pic-of-the-day" thread and it was an image poking fun at people who are not pro-vaccine.
Just for the record I am not anti vaccine. I am pro choice. If vaccines work for you (or if you just happen to believe that they are good for you) then that is fine. Just don't try to force me to accept that particular method in an attempt to confer immunity.
The death rate from diseases like Diphtheria, measles etc etc was declining long before vaccines arrived on the scene. And some people do suffer autism after being vaccinated - despite serious efforts being made by doctors and researchers to hide that data.
You cannot trust your health to the ignorance or "lab coat euphoria" of other commentators. You must research it carefully for yourself and take into account your family genetics and overall health and lifestyle.
Here is the pic posted by galbi (to which I was originally responding)
It's a little sad that informed comment was stripped out of the original thread while the original inflammatory image was left there.
Just for the record I am not anti vaccine. I am pro choice. If vaccines work for you (or if you just happen to believe that they are good for you) then that is fine. Just don't try to force me to accept that particular method in an attempt to confer immunity.
The death rate from diseases like Diphtheria, measles etc etc was declining long before vaccines arrived on the scene. And some people do suffer autism after being vaccinated - despite serious efforts being made by doctors and researchers to hide that data.
You cannot trust your health to the ignorance or "lab coat euphoria" of other commentators. You must research it carefully for yourself and take into account your family genetics and overall health and lifestyle.
Here is the pic posted by galbi (to which I was originally responding)
It's a little sad that informed comment was stripped out of the original thread while the original inflammatory image was left there.
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You also fail to say that an awful lot of people who get these diseases suffer badly or even die.
The balance must be on the side of vaccination or the medical proffession (well the majority) would not push for it.
But as Churchill once said "I may not agree with him, but I will defend to the death his right to his opinion".
The balance must be on the side of vaccination or the medical proffession (well the majority) would not push for it.
But as Churchill once said "I may not agree with him, but I will defend to the death his right to his opinion".
"Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush" - T Pratchett
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Moose On The Loose
- Posts: 965
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I just had a thought:Burn_IT wrote:You also fail to say that an awful lot of people who get these diseases suffer badly or even die.
The balance must be on the side of vaccination or the medical proffession (well the majority) would not push for it.
But as Churchill once said "I may not agree with him, but I will defend to the death his right to his opinion".
If the native americans had a vaccination program, the USA would be a very different place at least. European diseases nearly wiped out the existing population of the americas. It was 500 years ago but the evidence that plagues can bring down entire civilizations still applies.
I should also point out that Abe Lincoln once said "Don't believe every quote attribution you read on the internet"
A century ago Infectious-disease was the #1, #2 & #3 cause of death , but not now ...
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1113569
I wonder why that is ?
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1113569
I wonder why that is ?
See what those vaccines are doing to life-expectancy ... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life ... PN+KOR+USA
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In my eyes, the question/controversy itself is rather credulous...
I.e - If vaccinations were to stop today across the world, it would be only a matter of time before numerous really nasty, nascent old bugs would reappear and again begin to spread across the world's population - just as these same bugs did before vaccinations existed - wreaking immense suffering and often deadly harm (possibly even much worse than in the past, due to far larger population numbers/proximity and ease of world travel/spreading of pathogens).
Guaranteed, we'd be jumping right back onto the vaccination bandwagon.
The controversy/question itself solely exists due to vaccination's success. The perception that allows the question to even exist springs from the very condition of healthy privilege provided by vaccination's historical efficacy in the first place - weighing the very rare possibility of illness caused by the vaccine itself vs. the extremely rare possibility of coming in contact with the far worse target pathogen (extremely rare because the pathogen has been mostly eradicated via inoculation).
It's a risk/rewards assessment (and needs to include longer-term, world-population health considerations as well), and especially when you consider the mechanism of how vaccinations actually function - it's a no-brainer. Vaccines are a really, really good thing.
Freedom of choice aside.
My $0.02.
Bob
I.e - If vaccinations were to stop today across the world, it would be only a matter of time before numerous really nasty, nascent old bugs would reappear and again begin to spread across the world's population - just as these same bugs did before vaccinations existed - wreaking immense suffering and often deadly harm (possibly even much worse than in the past, due to far larger population numbers/proximity and ease of world travel/spreading of pathogens).
Guaranteed, we'd be jumping right back onto the vaccination bandwagon.
The controversy/question itself solely exists due to vaccination's success. The perception that allows the question to even exist springs from the very condition of healthy privilege provided by vaccination's historical efficacy in the first place - weighing the very rare possibility of illness caused by the vaccine itself vs. the extremely rare possibility of coming in contact with the far worse target pathogen (extremely rare because the pathogen has been mostly eradicated via inoculation).
It's a risk/rewards assessment (and needs to include longer-term, world-population health considerations as well), and especially when you consider the mechanism of how vaccinations actually function - it's a no-brainer. Vaccines are a really, really good thing.
Freedom of choice aside.
My $0.02.
Bob
This does not appear to be true.Moat wrote:The controversy/question itself solely exists due to vaccination's success. The perception that allows the question to even exist springs from the very condition of healthy privilege provided by vaccination's historical efficacy in the first place
The levels of the diseases to which you refer are historically much greater as a result of war, conflict, overcrowding and poverty. As time has marched on those effects have reduced the impact of those diseases.
If you believe that vaccination has protected you - that's great - I am in favour of individuals making that choice for themselves. But don't believe all of the lies.
Anyone who wants the facts around what drove the disease rates down just has to look at the real graphs:
http://wavesnz.org.nz/immunity/disease-decline/
Here is one example:
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In Europe vaccination began around 1800, its impact would take a few decades to appear ... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life ... OR+GBR+USAgreengeek wrote:Barkin - would it be possible for you to add the "dates of vaccine introduction" to your graph please?
I am pretty sure you will see that the steady increase in longevity began many years before the introduction of vaccines.
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Last edited by Barkin on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 18:08, edited 1 time in total.
@ greengeek;
Where's TB? Looking closely at the remaining three graphs from the page you linked, one can see a substantial decline to basically nil after the introduction of vaccines... who's to say what the graphs might have looked like without that introduction? Conjecture.
One has to instead view the before/after graphs that represent reported cases of the disease, in which case vaccination's efficacy is much easier to see.
And yes - vaccines are only a piece of the puzzle in regards to mortality/lifespan increase.
Bob
Where's TB? Looking closely at the remaining three graphs from the page you linked, one can see a substantial decline to basically nil after the introduction of vaccines... who's to say what the graphs might have looked like without that introduction? Conjecture.
One has to instead view the before/after graphs that represent reported cases of the disease, in which case vaccination's efficacy is much easier to see.
And yes - vaccines are only a piece of the puzzle in regards to mortality/lifespan increase.
Bob
Last edited by Moat on Tue 11 Jul 2017, 10:56, edited 2 times in total.
My Aunt was a TB nurse and she was very proud of the fact that they had conquered TB in this country. THis was before the advent of cheap flights and mass immigration from the third world, and only lasted about 6 months before it came back.
"Just think of it as leaving early to avoid the rush" - T Pratchett
So, by your own admission, a "steady increase in longevity", has accompanied widespread vaccination.greengeek wrote:... the steady increase in longevity ...
Vaccination can't be doing much harm then.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life ... ry=NZL+USA
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Last edited by Barkin on Mon 10 Jul 2017, 19:00, edited 1 time in total.
I am old enough to remember regularly seeing television commercials (1960's) regarding urging vaccination and funding of such for tuberculosis and polio - hospital rooms of kids in leg braces, on crutches, etc.
What was the TB Society (?) logo... a three-armed cross?
Today - or in the last 30 years or so? Gone. Completely disappeared from the public's eye, perception and concern, as those vaccination programs were apparently hugely successful.
I'd rather not civilization revert back to those particular challenges (we have enough "new" ones already!
).
The British doctor who started the entire ADD/vaccination uproar was proven a fraud, IIRC. But hey - wasn't it Jenny McCarthy who wrote a book supporting it?
Although - there's no question that the added chemicals required for the preservation/storage of vaccines certainly can be an issue (that mercury thang...). We have some further work to do there, for sure. The vaccine/virus remnants themselves - and their immune-triggering/antigen-creating properties - again, that's a really good thing - invaluable. The same process our bodies are going through constantly, exposed to innumerable new pathogens each and every day. A vaccination is nothing more than introducing another particular one into the fray.
Bob
What was the TB Society (?) logo... a three-armed cross?
Today - or in the last 30 years or so? Gone. Completely disappeared from the public's eye, perception and concern, as those vaccination programs were apparently hugely successful.
I'd rather not civilization revert back to those particular challenges (we have enough "new" ones already!
). The British doctor who started the entire ADD/vaccination uproar was proven a fraud, IIRC. But hey - wasn't it Jenny McCarthy who wrote a book supporting it?
Although - there's no question that the added chemicals required for the preservation/storage of vaccines certainly can be an issue (that mercury thang...). We have some further work to do there, for sure. The vaccine/virus remnants themselves - and their immune-triggering/antigen-creating properties - again, that's a really good thing - invaluable. The same process our bodies are going through constantly, exposed to innumerable new pathogens each and every day. A vaccination is nothing more than introducing another particular one into the fray.
Bob
See ... http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Andrew_WakefieldMoat wrote:The British doctor who started the entire ADD/vaccination uproar was proven a fraud, IIRC.
⸮ Doesn't everybody get their medical-advice from PlayBoy bunnies & rubber-faced comedians who dropped out of college / high-school ⸮Moat wrote: But hey - wasn't it Jenny McCarthy who wrote a book supporting it?