pre-installation considerations and thoughts

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gazzawazza
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Joined: Tue 18 Jul 2017, 13:18

pre-installation considerations and thoughts

#1 Post by gazzawazza »

hi all

am tentatively stepping into the world of linux but would appreciate some advice / guidance.

I have an ancient PC

CPU: athlon XP 1800+ (single core, 32 bit)
RAM: 768MB
MOBO: Asus A7v266-E (VIA Apollo KT266A)
STORAGE: 2 HDs (38 GB - winXP; 150GB - lubuntu 16.04.2 LTS)
OPTICAL: 1 CD drive; 1 DVD drive
GRAPHICS: discrete card (AGP geforce2 64MB but probably putting in ATI 9800 pro, as I have it spare). 1024x768 monitor output


So, some thoughts:

- What puppy version do i go for?

- An earlier build, which should be less complex and potentially run more quickly (as it's smaller)?

- A later version, which should be more stable and more secure, but possibly with more bugs because it's more complex?
N.B. no idea whether a later kernel will run more quickly or not, due to code improvements/refinements

- how do i go about installing puppy linux, with an existing grubloader / dual boot in place?

I'm proposing to install to HD because I think it will load more quickly than off USB (due to limited bandwidth of USB 1.1)



Regards,

Gary

slavvo67
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#2 Post by slavvo67 »

Hi Gary,

I would suggest downloading a few and running them live on a CD to see which may work best with your computer specs.. There are so many threads asking which one, so i suggest you search them out to see what others have donw.

Unfortunately, there is no one simple answer as this depends on many things, including your software needs, browser choice, secuirty needs just to name a few.

So, if you can, run a few of them via cd (live) for a few weeks until you can determine which is best for your needs.

Slavvo67

mostly_lurking
Posts: 328
Joined: Wed 25 Jun 2014, 20:31

#3 Post by mostly_lurking »

gazzawazza wrote:- What puppy version do i go for?

- An earlier build, which should be less complex and potentially run more quickly (as it's smaller)?

- A later version, which should be more stable and more secure, but possibly with more bugs because it's more complex?
N.B. no idea whether a later kernel will run more quickly or not, due to code improvements/refinements
It depends on what aspects are most important to you. Older Puppy versions are usually smaller and simpler and use up less resources, and might have better compatibility with your hardware. Newer ones may be "heavier", and therefore perhaps slower, but will allow you to run more modern programs. Web browsers are a particular concern here, as they are often developed for the latest-and-greatest systems; it can be difficult to get a reasonably up-to-date browser to work on an old OS.
gazzawazza wrote:- how do i go about installing puppy linux, with an existing grubloader / dual boot in place?

I'm proposing to install to HD because I think it will load more quickly than off USB (due to limited bandwidth of USB 1.1)
I guess most people here will recommend a frugal install either on a USB device or on the hard drive (and letting Puppy create a savefile that stores any changes you make to it), which would not require you to re-partition or re-format the HDD, because in this case, Puppy's compressed system files can be placed on one of the existing partitions without upsetting the operating system that's already installed there. (I think someone said Windows partitions should be defragmented first before putting a savefile on them.) A full install, on the other hand - which would work the same way as any normal system install, re-formatting a partition and putting the OS's file system on it - is usually only recommended if the computer has very little memory, which is not the case here.

As for performing the install and getting it to work with your Grub bootloader, you'll have to wait for others here to come in; I don't know much about this.

Since you have a CD and DVD drive, you would also have the possibility to run Puppy from a CD/DVD, with an option to save any changes that you made back to the disk, if you have a burner (multisession save, which is what I use) - but of course, this would come with longer boot times. Nonetheless, slavvo67's suggestion to try some Puppies on CD first is probably the simplest way to get started.

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bigpup
Posts: 13886
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#4 Post by bigpup »

am tentatively stepping into the world of linux.
STORAGE: 2 HDs (38 GB - winXP; 150GB - lubuntu 16.04.2 LTS)
Lubuntu is Linux, so what are you really saying with this statement?
CPU: athlon XP 1800+ (single core, 32 bit)
The only Puppy versions you can use are the ones that are 32bit.
If the Puppy versions name does not have 64 in it, it is 32bit.
Example:
Tahrpup 6.0.5 (32bit)
Tahrpup64 6.0.5 (64bit)

Tahrpup 6.0.5 would be a very good one to start with.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=96178
Burn the iso image to the CD or DVD using a CD/DVD writting/burning program.
Just make sure to select "burn iso image" or "burn image" or "write image" option in your burning software and then choose the Puppy iso file.

Boot it and see what you think.

If you want to install to the hard drive.
You can do it from the running Puppy CD/DVD.
Puppy Universal Installer does the install.

I suggest doing a frugal install of Puppy to the 2nd hard drive, because it is formatted in a Linux format, and you can save to a folder.
Lubuntu will still be there.
A Puppy frugal install will be in a directory(folder) and have no affect on Lubuntu's install.

If you install Puppy to the hard drive.
To boot XP, Lubuntu, and Puppy.

I would not use Grub anymore to boot the computer.

menu->System->Grub4dos Bootloader Config
Grub4dos Bootloader Config will install Grub4dos.
It is specially coded for how Puppy works and it has no problem booting other operating systems, it finds on the computer, when you run Grub4dos Bootloader Config.

Other usefull info:
Basics of installing program packages
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=59597

Here is a Puppy specific Google search:
http://puppylinux.us/psearch.html
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)

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bigpup
Posts: 13886
Joined: Sun 11 Oct 2009, 18:15
Location: S.C. USA

#5 Post by bigpup »

- An earlier build, which should be less complex and potentially run more quickly (as it's smaller)?

- A later version, which should be more stable and more secure, but possibly with more bugs because it's more complex?
N.B. no idea whether a later kernel will run more quickly or not, due to code improvements/refinements
Puppy running speed is not an issue from Puppy version to Puppy version.
They all run fast.
Frugal install gives you the fastest operation. This is dependent on the actual read write speed of the device the frugal install is on.

In general all Puppies work about the same.
The newer Puppy versions have small improvements made to Puppy programs, core files, with mostly improvements to hardware support.
At this point in Puppy development, it is more about trying to support the latest hardware, not improvements to Puppy.
The newer or newest Linux kernels are needed to support the newest hardware.
With older hardware like yours. The Linux kernel being used is not much of an issue.


Like any operating system.
You do have to learn how it works.
GIVE YOURSELF SOME TIME TO LEARN PUPPY!!
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)

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Rattlehead
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu 11 Sep 2008, 11:40

#6 Post by Rattlehead »

If you go the ancient puppies road, two versions I can recommend are 2.16. and 4.3.1. I started with them in a Compaq laptop with 196Mb RAM. Robust and reliable, I only left them when I was forced to by lack of updates and things like that.

(Your mileage might vary, but for example, if you go for version 4, 4.3.1. is the real thing, a very memorable distro)

cthisbear
Posts: 4422
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2006, 22:07
Location: Sydney Australia

#7 Post by cthisbear »

Specs:

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K7/AMD-At ... DMT3C.html

Because your Bus speed is 266 MHz I suggest trying these
I posted earlier.

But not >>> Slacko5.7-2017B and eeePC 2017 "B.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=111070

There are plenty of older pups that will run and some users have updated and re-released.

Plenty of people will give you guidance.

The main thing I would like you to do is post back success or failure.
We hope that you enjoy the Puppy speed and the Puppy forum here,
who love getting results.

:::::::::

Copy the main >>> .sfs file to your hard drive and boot from cd.
It must be in lowercase.

Like adding instant ram for Puppy.

Lucid will look like this. ...>>> lupu_528.sfs

::::

Stretch like this....>>> puppy_stretch_7.0.0a1.sfs
Also add for stretch ......>>>>> zdrv_stretch_7.0.0a1.sfs

The additional sfs are drivers etc.

Get the picture.

Best to do that with 7 zip for Windows.
Just click the ISO you want and extract to your hard drive.

http://www.7-zip.org/

The 7-Zip Portable is ok for not having to install.

https://portableapps.com/apps/utilities/7-zip_portable


:::::::


You could probably try usb later.

Burn the ISO download with Burncccd...small...fast ...reliable for Windows.

24 - 32 speed tops.

https://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downl ... ftware.htm

All those are safe and small programs I have used for years.

Good luck...Chris.

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Mike Walsh
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Joined: Sat 28 Jun 2014, 12:42
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

#8 Post by Mike Walsh »

Not a lot left to add to this, really!

Frugal (as opposed to full); yes. You have sufficient RAM to do this.

Try a few out; yes. Definitely; there is such a diversity of styles and different ways of doing things from one Pup to another, it really has to be done this way. We can't make any single fixed recommendation.

Do take Chris's advice on board; with your old Athlon, whichever Pup you decide to try, if there's a choice of downloads (PAE or non-PAE), go with the latter. PAE will not benefit you; it only applies to having 4 GB or more of RAM.

And bigpup (bless 'im!) is quite right about the kernels. An older machine like that, most of the older kernels (2- and 3-series alike) will work fine. 95% of the kernel is, at this stage, devoted to nothing but drivers.....and already it runs to many millions of lines of code.

Try Puppy out, and don't be afraid to experiment, and ask as many questions as you like. We're here to help..!


Mike. :wink:

gazzawazza
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue 18 Jul 2017, 13:18

Thanks

#9 Post by gazzawazza »

hi everyone

Thought I'd do a common reply, to try and pull things together.

Firstly though, my apologies for my slow reply. Life overtook things, then my Raspberry Pi 3 arrived (which I wanted to get working for Pi-Hole), so ended up prioritising those.

Secondly, thanks very much to all the responses and contributors. Thanks also for the quick replies:

slavvo67
mostly_lurking
bigpup
Rattlehead
cthisbear
Mike Walsh

bigpup – I said I’m tentatively stepping into the world of linux, as I only installed lubuntu maybe 2 months ago and within days had a major issue with firefox (and found 3 other browsers horribly unstable, so was basically without a browser, which made troubleshooting very difficult). This had me stumped and left me abandoning my exploration for a while (actually turned out to flash causing consistent crashes on FF startup). Also, I found it quite tormenting that my solution, which would have been easy on windows (uninstall / reinstall) was thwarted because of the way one goes about installing software on linux. At the time, I didn’t know about debs or that a tarball could just contain sourcecode or might have all the libraries and it just depends on the maintainer. I’m in a better place now but it’s a step learning curve. Having said that, I’ve just skimmed through your hugely useful link about PPM, PETs & SFSs. Here we go again :)

summary of possible builds to try
(hopefully chronological and accurate)
  • 2.16 (may 2007). There’s a 2.17.1 too (Aug 2007).
  • 4.3.1 (Oct 2009)
  • 5.2.8.6 (Sep 2013)
  • 5.2.8.7 (Nov 2013). Think this has had a reboot with updated components (July 2015)
  • Tahrpup 6.0.5 (dec 2015). Based on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS. Note there’s a 6.0.6 build (Feb 2017)
  • Woof ce debian stretch (2017). (http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 207#961207). Very up-to-date as based on Debian 9
key points
  • Try live CDs
  • Check out frugal installs
  • Non-PAE (presumably 32bit if PAE can address more than 4GB RAM)
  • Use grub4dos as Puppy is happy with that and it plays nicely with other distros / installs.
  • There’s much speed difference in different pup builds – it’s more about the hardware support
I've actually got a Windows Cert exam in a couple of week, so really should prioritise that, so I'm probably going to have to leave my fiddling with Puppy for a bit. I'm also interested in the Quirky Xerus build for the raspberry Pi 3 (having already tried raspbian and lubuntu 16.04.2).

Anyway, I'll try to post back here, as requested, with an update.

All the best and thanks for the really decent, helpful messages.



Cheers,

Gary
Last edited by gazzawazza on Tue 25 Jul 2017, 16:34, edited 1 time in total.

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mikeslr
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#10 Post by mikeslr »

Hi gazzawazza,

I skimmed thru the recommendations so I may have missed it. With only 768MB of RAM, regardless of which Puppy you try, adding a Swap drive will help. This is especially true when trying to use browsers to access Websites. The style today is to include on webpages as much graphic content with as much color depth and detail as possible -- no problem for those with Gbs of RAM to spare while surfing the web. But each webpage you access caches its content on your computer so that the website doesn't have to transmit it to you again. In Puppies, cache is held RAM. A few minutes of browsing to different sites can quickly eat up hundreds of Mbs of RAM. When RAM is exhausted, your browser may crash.

Two things can help. One is adding a Swap drive. The second is moving your browser's cache out of RAM. This will slow down operations a bit, but you may hardly notice. As each browser stores its cache in a different location in RAM, and I wanted to explain how to move it, that actually lead me to think of a Puppy you should try.

Several Puppy-fans on this thread, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 632#946632 have recommended Racy. You can find links to several versions here: http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Racy. Watchdog has build a version of Palemoon which runs under it. See, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 622#957622 and Mike Walsh's post just after that.

Palemoon is a fork of firefox. When used, it will create two folders which under Puppy's "merge file system", by default, are copied and held in RAM. One folder is /root/.moonchild productions. Note the dot, "." after /. That signify a hidden file. To see it, click rox's EYE. In other file-managers, click view>show hidden files. This .moonchild productions folder holds settings, bookmarks, addons etc. The second folder Palemoon creates hold's its cache. You'll find it at /root/.cache/moonchild productions. Although they can be moved to any partition --hard-drive space-- /mnt/home, the drive/partition on which a Frugal Puppy files are stored, is automatically mounted on bootup. Moreover, if you've copied your Puppies essential files to a folder, that folder provides a convenient place within which to place other files relating to that Puppy. Both of these folders can be moved out of RAM in the following manner:

Open one rox window to /mnt/home/racy. Right-click an empty space and from the popup menu select New>Directory. Give it a name such as Webstuff. Left-click Webstuff to open it. Leaving it opened, open a 2nd rox window to /root/.cache so that you see the .moonchild productions folder within it. Left-Press and hold that folder, then drag it into /Webstuff. Select Move. Now Left-Press, hold and drag .moonchild productions back to /root/.cache and select Link(relative). Although that .moonchild productions folder is now physically on your hard-drive, your Puppy and Palemoon will continue to treat it --via the symbolic link-- as if it remained in root.

Even with the above a swap partition of 1 Gb can't hurt. Puppy when booted up will occupy about 100 Mb. Palemoon when just opened will occupy another 150 and, even though its cached its content, displaying that content requires RAM. Multiple tabs or windows means RAM being used for each. Open LibreWriter so you can 'cut & paste' into it, or similar operations with other applications, and you're using another couple hundred Mbs of RAM.

All changes initially take place in RAM. So the Rule of Thumb is 'the more RAM, the better'. Almost everything today is RAM intensive. The lovely fonts of wordprocessors require more RAM than the plain text fonts of text editors. With less than 1 Gb of RAM even under an operating system which itself doesn't require much RAM, having a Swap drive is just good insurance against overwhelming your system.

mikesLr

gazzawazza
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue 18 Jul 2017, 13:18

#11 Post by gazzawazza »

mikeslr wrote:Hi gazzawazza,

I skimmed thru the recommendations so I may have missed it. With only 768MB of RAM, regardless of which Puppy you try, adding a Swap drive will help. This is especially true when trying to use browsers to access Websites. The style today is to include on webpages as much graphic content with as much color depth and detail as possible -- no problem for those with Gbs of RAM to spare while surfing the web. But each webpage you access caches its content on your computer so that the website doesn't have to transmit it to you again. In Puppies, cache is held RAM. A few minutes of browsing to different sites can quickly eat up hundreds of Mbs of RAM. When RAM is exhausted, your browser may crash.

Two things can help. One is adding a Swap drive. The second is moving your browser's cache out of RAM. This will slow down operations a bit, but you may hardly notice. As each browser stores its cache in a different location in RAM, and I wanted to explain how to move it, that actually lead me to think of a Puppy you should try.

Several Puppy-fans on this thread, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 632#946632 have recommended Racy. You can find links to several versions here: http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Racy. Watchdog has build a version of Palemoon which runs under it. See, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 622#957622 and Mike Walsh's post just after that.

Palemoon is a fork of firefox. When used, it will create two folders which under Puppy's "merge file system", by default, are copied and held in RAM. One folder is /root/.moonchild productions. Note the dot, "." after /. That signify a hidden file. To see it, click rox's EYE. In other file-managers, click view>show hidden files. This .moonchild productions folder holds settings, bookmarks, addons etc. The second folder Palemoon creates hold's its cache. You'll find it at /root/.cache/moonchild productions. Although they can be moved to any partition --hard-drive space-- /mnt/home, the drive/partition on which a Frugal Puppy files are stored, is automatically mounted on bootup. Moreover, if you've copied your Puppies essential files to a folder, that folder provides a convenient place within which to place other files relating to that Puppy. Both of these folders can be moved out of RAM in the following manner:

Open one rox window to /mnt/home/racy. Right-click an empty space and from the popup menu select New>Directory. Give it a name such as Webstuff. Left-click Webstuff to open it. Leaving it opened, open a 2nd rox window to /root/.cache so that you see the .moonchild productions folder within it. Left-Press and hold that folder, then drag it into /Webstuff. Select Move. Now Left-Press, hold and drag .moonchild productions back to /root/.cache and select Link(relative). Although that .moonchild productions folder is now physically on your hard-drive, your Puppy and Palemoon will continue to treat it --via the symbolic link-- as if it remained in root.

Even with the above a swap partition of 1 Gb can't hurt. Puppy when booted up will occupy about 100 Mb. Palemoon when just opened will occupy another 150 and, even though its cached its content, displaying that content requires RAM. Multiple tabs or windows means RAM being used for each. Open LibreWriter so you can 'cut & paste' into it, or similar operations with other applications, and you're using another couple hundred Mbs of RAM.

All changes initially take place in RAM. So the Rule of Thumb is 'the more RAM, the better'. Almost everything today is RAM intensive. The lovely fonts of wordprocessors require more RAM than the plain text fonts of text editors. With less than 1 Gb of RAM even under an operating system which itself doesn't require much RAM, having a Swap drive is just good insurance against overwhelming your system.

mikesLr
Thanks Mike.

I've got a swap partition from lubuntu. It's on the same physical drive, which isn't optimal but at least I've got a swap area.

I'm sure I read that puppy can use that but can't seem to see it on this thread.

Can I set it so puppy uses the swap partition if/when needed, rather than make this behaviour app-specific?


Thanks,

Gary

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mikeslr
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Location: 500 seconds from Sol

#12 Post by mikeslr »

Hi,

AFAIK, any Linux OS will use any SwapFiles or SwapDrives/Partitions available. You don't have to do anything.

mikesLr

p.s. To anyone reading this thread who knows. When reading how to create a Swapfile, I decided to follow the instructions. I created one 64Mbs in size. Of course, its completely useless, especially as this computer has 8 Gbs of RAM. I know how to turn-off Swap-partition so it can be resized or deleted: open a terminal and type, e.g.:

swapoff /dev/hdb7
or swapoff /dev/sda8

depending on where gparted sees the swap & how it characterizes it.

But how the hell do you get rid of a Swapfile?

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