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The time now is Mon 20 Nov 2017, 19:22
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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Hardware
USB 3.0: (New) Samsung/SanDisk FlashD halt boot on laptop
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Mitchellray

Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Mon 06 Nov 2017, 19:06    Post subject:  USB 3.0: (New) Samsung/SanDisk FlashD halt boot on laptop
Subject description: New Samsung Fit & Sandisk Cruzer Fit prevent boot process
 

Hello,
I have an HP COMPAQ Presario V3000. It boots from USB, DVD/CD, and HDD, although I rarely boot from HDD.
I just purchased two new Flash Drives, 1-Samsung USB 3.0 Flash Drive Fit, 32GB, and 1-Sandisk Cruzer Fit, 32GB.
Just to test out the devices, I transfered some pdf files. They both work and were quick. Then I tried to copy an .2fs save file to the Samsung, and it was slow, but okay.
Then I discovered that when either of those flash drives is inserted prior to power on to boot, the machine hangs almost immediately with a flashing cursor and nothing more happens.
Other older used flash drives do not cause this problem.
I tried to reformat the Samsung, but it still causes the same problem.
They do both work for storage, but oddly interfere with boot up.
When I enter boot options and tell to put dvd/cd first, then the machine boots from the cd normally. That is incovenient.
The further reason I am asking for help is that I wonder if there is going to be a problem in the future for Puppy and other portable OSes.
M
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 9517
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov 2017, 02:58    Post subject:  

Use Gparted to look at the USB flash drives.
See if their partition is flagged boot.
If yes.
Unflag them.

Any help??

Also, what format are they?

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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Mitchellray

Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov 2017, 12:30    Post subject:  

Hello bigpup,

I have used gparted as well as fdisk. I have tried with boot flag toggled on and toggled off. I tried reformatting to ext.2 and also to fat32. I tried creating a new UUID. I think I may have tried creating a new empty dos partition table as well, just because nothing else had worked up until that point.

A general internet search has revealed that there had been some issues going back as far as several years, but then I come back here because this issue is quite pertinent to the Puppy community, I think.

Plus I don't know if there are other 'New' flash drives that will still work and whether or not I should just return both of these. I would prefer to figure out how to make them work.

It seems that they have a reserved section of approximately more than 2GB, since gparted only sees 29.8 out of 32GB. Maybe there are some instruction there preventing the bios from bypassing the hardware, when it looks there first. But how to alter that?

The bios does recognize the name of the devices when escape to boot order is invoked pre-boot.

Again, I haven't had this problem with other flash drives, but these being name brand, I anticipate a new trend and would like to know there is a work around. Amusingly, and rare, the Samsung device packaging actually indicates Linux compatability.
M
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purple379

Joined: 04 Oct 2014
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov 2017, 12:51    Post subject: I use OS X when I have problems with flash drives.  

That is the "Disk Utility" in OS X. I notice some folks on the Apple forums complain that the later versions of "Disk Utility are not always useful.

I had problems with the flash drive being ex-fat, and then some Flash Drives had a boot section that got installed somewhere.

I have a Samsung SSD in a tower that had issues when booting. Apparently it was so fast, that some other boot events did not get populated or started properly. I notice other folks had the same problem with a Samsung SSD. But then that has nothing to do with your problem.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 9517
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov 2017, 20:32    Post subject:  

Quote:
It seems that they have a reserved section of approximately more than 2GB, since gparted only sees 29.8 out of 32GB.

The file allocation table and the partition table take up some room.
The file allocation table, has some space set aside for it to grow, as files are added.
Also, it just depends on how the program you are using, to look at the drive, is depicting the space on it.
Usually, it just shows the usable space for data.

What you are seeing is about normal.

This is my 32GB USB flash drive as shown in Gparted.
29.89 GiB

Quote:
The manufactures label stuff using the size that looks the biggest.
Now you are getting into labeling it in bites or bytes.
Many manufacturers use a decimal number system to define amounts of storage space. As a result, 1 MB is defined as one million bytes, 1 GB is defined as one billion bytes, and so on. Since your computer uses a binary system as mentioned above, you may notice a discrepancy between your drives published capacity and the capacity acknowledged by your computer. For example, a hard drive that is said to contain 10 GB of storage space using a decimal system is actually capable of storing 10,000,000,000 bytes. However, in a binary system, 10 GB is 10,737,418,240 bytes. As a result, instead of acknowledging 10 GB, your computer will acknowledge 9.31 GB. This is not a malfunction but a matter of different definitions.

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I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 9517
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Tue 07 Nov 2017, 21:01    Post subject:  

See if the computer bios is actually seeing the USB flash drives as hard drives.
Should be a bios section that lists hard drives found on computer.

This was a way to get the computer to boot from an operating system on the USB.
Maybe the reverse will apply to your computer.

Quote:
solution was to change the priority of hard disk drives (Move my Cruzer Fit USB stick above my internal HDD in the priority order). This was a separate menu in the BIOS from the boot priority (where it was set as 1. removable disk 2. hdd 3. dvd drive etc)

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I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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Mitchellray

Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov 2017, 00:06    Post subject: USB 3.0: (new).........halt boot on laptop  

f10 into bios, there is not a breakdown of devices.
The boot order is set as:
1. USB Hard Drive
2. ATAPI CD/DVD ROM Drive
3. USB Diskette on Key
4. USB Floppy
5. Network Adapter

Esc to specify boot order after power on shows that the Samsung is recognized as a USB Flashdrive and the SanDisk is recognized as USB without the Flashdrive designation.

I usually boot from a CD into Precise Puppy. But, I also use other flavors that I boot from USB flashdrive. If a no-OS USB flashdrive is inserted at the time of boot, the bios usually just defaults to the CD, which is always in the drive.
However, these new USB flashdrives are interrupting the process and the machine doesn't proceed once the flashdrive is discovered and, evidentally accessed.
M
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peterw

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 273
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed 08 Nov 2017, 14:07    Post subject: Flash Drive inserted stops boot process  

I have had occurrences on some machines where any inserted USB stick stopped the boot process. This was true even if the BIOS settings were to boot from the HD. I seem to remember that my research at the time showed it was a BIOS fault and I was stuck with it.
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 2913
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Thu 09 Nov 2017, 08:17    Post subject:  

Indeed there are some USB devices which DO interfere with the boot process even if they or the machine is not actually trying to boot from them. This is because the BIOS has to scan the headers at least and, unfortunately, malicious as well as genuine code can be present there.
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BarryK
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Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 8312
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Thu 09 Nov 2017, 08:41    Post subject:  

post deleted.
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Last edited by BarryK on Thu 09 Nov 2017, 21:31; edited 1 time in total
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 2913
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Thu 09 Nov 2017, 10:05    Post subject:  

The code is in an area that is not normally accessible to the user so cannot be accessed or changed.
I believe there are special tools that WILL allow access, but I haven't checked as I have never needed to.

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Mitchellray

Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Thu 09 Nov 2017, 14:32    Post subject:  

Hello,
I will try using "# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=1M conv=fsync oflag=sync".
Meanwhile, maybe it doesn't matter as I thought because I dd pyro32-0.5 to the SanDisk and the device then is able to boot to the OS. (write speed about 10mb/s)
Then, I used easydd to the Samsung and it too was able to boot to the OS.
Then, I wiped the SanDisk and reformatted using gparted. The pre-boot frozen screen with flashing cursor problem surfaced again.
Then, I dd pyro32-0.5 to the SanDisk for a second time and it boots to the OS.
This time I manually deleted all of the files from each of the two partitions on the SanDisk and even reformatted partition 2 to ext.2 Now when booting, the error message "missing operating system" appears, but then the machine looks to the second option, CD/DVD and boots normally to Precise Puppy.
So, I will report back after I try the overwriting the entire device with "zero". Is that writing zero(s)?
M
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BarryK
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Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 8312
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Thu 09 Nov 2017, 21:30    Post subject:  

Mitchellray wrote:
Hello,
I will try using "# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=1M conv=fsync oflag=sync".
Meanwhile, maybe it doesn't matter as I thought because I dd pyro32-0.5 to the SanDisk and the device then is able to boot to the OS. (write speed about 10mb/s)
Then, I used easydd to the Samsung and it too was able to boot to the OS.
Then, I wiped the SanDisk and reformatted using gparted. The pre-boot frozen screen with flashing cursor problem surfaced again.
Then, I dd pyro32-0.5 to the SanDisk for a second time and it boots to the OS.
This time I manually deleted all of the files from each of the two partitions on the SanDisk and even reformatted partition 2 to ext.2 Now when booting, the error message "missing operating system" appears, but then the machine looks to the second option, CD/DVD and boots normally to Precise Puppy.
So, I will report back after I try the overwriting the entire device with "zero". Is that writing zero(s)?
M


Yeah, ignore my post. As you already did dd to the entire drive, there is no point in writing zeroes as I suggested.

The situation must be as Burn_IT suggested.

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Mitchellray

Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Thu 09 Nov 2017, 22:49    Post subject:  

My apology for the original bad assumption that there would be a problem with being able to boot a Puppy OS from these drives. I will have to try the other method as well with some other flavors to see if that works too.

I went ahead anyway with #dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=1M conv=sync oflag=sync
#sync
The device was then ignored by the bios and the machine booted the 2nd choice CD/DVD.
Gparted reported the device as having unrecognized disk label. To be expected?
I created the default msdos partition table.
Then, rebooting the machine with the SanDisk inserted resulted in the same hang as before.
I ran the procedure .....#sync, again, and the machine ignores the flashdrive again and boots via CD/DVD.
I wonder how it can be formatted or why when after writing the pyro32* image file and even after deleting all of the files manually, the device can be bypassed rather than hanging the machine.
Will it have to wait for another time and place to be resolved?
M
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