Ideal ratio between size of pupsave and size of RAM?

[bigpup]

hamoudoudou

Also, that image you posted is not showing a normal boot up.
It is showing a boot up, doing a update of the Puppy OS version.
Totally different boot process from a normal boot up.

[hamoudoudou]

this screensot perhaps fits better to show that pupsave is loaded before main SFS i hope... Screenshot from you tube tutorials

[bigpup]

That is the way Puppy 4.3.1 did it.


Newer versions of Puppy load/mount the Save last.

Example:
Xenialpup 7.5 loads in this order.
Xenialpup.sfs into ram.
zdrv_xenialpup.sfs into ram.
xenialpupsave loaded

Again, saves are not loaded into ram, only mounted.

[hamoudoudou]

i agree about how xenialpup loads.. and that is new..
About DVD-rw and sessions saved on it that is a fact that you can remove DVD during session, all is loaded in RAM
pendrive : Pupmode13

I Never use Hard Drive Sorry
The default mode for hard drive running is PUPMODE=12. In this mode, all writes are immediately passed through onto the save file image. Thus, there will be frequent writes as you keep modifying data/develop temp files, etc...
[/b]

[hamoudoudou]

Pendrive removed as a DVD would be removed. No external stuff , all in RAM.. No drive no pendrive, and all my apps added in pupsave are here, ready to run.. no pupsave, pendrive is not plugged.
If i was not sure one hour ago, now i am sure (and certain) that pupsave is in RAM.

[root@pupjibaro ~] $ lsusb

unplug

[hamoudoudou]

that is true that in latest Puppies, and Pupjibaro Strech too, pupsave loads After ISO contained sfs, zdrv, ydrv.. and so on). why do they change order ?

[musher0]

Here's a clue:
Enter "df" as a command in a console.
Look for "tmpfs" in the first column and then it's mount point in the last column.
This is typically "/initrd/mnt/tmpfs"
Now have a look at the files in that directory.
You should see a directory called "tmp", as well as all the sfs's that have been "copied to ram", identical to the corresponding files on disk.

So how much ram does a 1GiB sfs use when it is "copied to ram"?
Answer, 1GiB.

Don't be worried too much by the "size" column in the output from "df", because a "tmpfs" consumes ram dynamically, the "size" is just the maximum it is allowed to grow to.

Neither a savefile nor a savefolder is ever copied into ram, they are always accessed directly on disk.
That is why there are no partitions mounted in a running pupmode=5 Puppy, but the partition containing the savefile/savefolder is always mounted in a running pupmmode=12 Puppy.

If you have concerns about your ram size, ensure that you have a swap partition that is equal to the pyhsical size of your ram.

And if you have concerns about savefile size, use a savefolder.

gyro

Hi gyro, hi 8Geee. And hello to all.

The following are a series of "thoughts" on both your considerations,
using my present xenialPup-706 setup. I hope it makes sense. Any
comment will be appreciated.

I must add that my grub "paragraph" for this xenialPup-706 uses the
pfix=nocopy setting. (As 8Geee mentioned.)

BFN.

Code: Select all

[~]>df -h /initrd/pup* | awk '$1 ~ /dev/ || $0 ~ /Use/'

# I used /initrd/pup* only because if I use /initrd/* I also get results
# for /dev_save (aka /mnt/home), and that is on disk, not in RAM.

# We skip the "unionfs" line because it has the same numbers as 
# /dev/loop3, it is a "double" of /dev/loop3. We don't want to calculate 
# those contents twice.

# We keep the "Use" line because we want to see the header.
#
Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on

/dev/loop2      122M  122M     0 100% /initrd/pup_a
/dev/loop11      89M   89M     0 100% /initrd/pup_ro10
/dev/loop0      235M  235M     0 100% /initrd/pup_ro2
/dev/loop4      152M  152M     0 100% /initrd/pup_ro3
/dev/loop5      3,7M  3,7M     0 100% /initrd/pup_ro4
/dev/loop6       13M   13M     0 100% /initrd/pup_ro5
/dev/loop7       57M   57M     0 100% /initrd/pup_ro6
/dev/loop8       17M   17M     0 100% /initrd/pup_ro7
/dev/loop9      110M  110M     0 100% /initrd/pup_ro8
/dev/loop10      24M   24M     0 100% /initrd/pup_ro9
/dev/loop3      756M  259M  498M  35% /initrd/pup_rw
/dev/loop1       31M   31M     0 100% /initrd/pup_z

# We ask awk to sum up the "Used" field above, and this is what we get:

[~]>df -h /initrd/pup* | awk '$1 ~ /dev/ {sum += $3} END {print sum}'  
1112,7M

3915M is our RAM total:
[~]>free -m
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:          3915       3655        259          4        194       1527
-/+ buffers/cache:       1933       1982
Swap:         4499         21       4478

# So we are safe, we have enough RAM to accommodate all the various 
# components of the Puppy.
[~]>echo "scale=3;3915-1112.7" | bc
2802.3M # This is the RAM that's free to use.

Needless to say, this type of study has to be done by the user before
(s)he tries to squash the pupsave file into an adrv sfs. If we get a
negative result from the bc line above, we do not do it.

Code: Select all

# Now if I compare the size of the "/dev/loops" with their sfs-file 
# counterparts on disk, I get:
110M	aOO-4.1.5_x86_fr.sfs
17M	Emul_DOS_Toutou-0.2_021.sfs*
26M	gnumeric-1.12.9-i486-1rl.sfs*
57M	jre-8u144-linux-i586.sfs
24M	light-49.0.linux-i686_6.sfs
10M	mpv-0.27-xenialPup7.sfs
13M	PupLin_PDF-0.1.sfs
89M	slimjet-18.0.2.0-i686.sfs
3,6M	tcltk-8.6.6_6.sfs

The sizes basically jive. Except, by doing this comparison, it becomes
obvious that the sfs's are only mounted in RAM, not developed in RAM to
their full size. Probably the effect of the "nocopy" parameter in the GRUB
entry, yes?

[musher0]

Pendrive removed as a DVD would be removed. No external stuff , all in RAM.. No drive no pendrive, and all my apps added in pupsave are here, ready to run.. no pupsave, pendrive is not plugged.
If i was not sure one hour ago, now i am sure (and certain) that pupsave is in RAM.

[root@pupjibaro ~] $ lsusb
Bus 002 Device 004: ID 0bda:0129 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTS5129 Card Reader Controller
Bus 002 Device 003: ID 0bda:8178 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTL8192CU 802.11n WLAN Adapter
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 125: ID 04f2:0939 Chicony Electronics Co., Ltd
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 1a40:0101 Terminus Technology Inc. Hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 8087:0024 Intel Corp. Integrated Rate Matching Hub
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
[root@pupjibaro ~] $

Hi.

A remark if I may.

Your list above was created with the lsusb utility. It lists -- as it should --
your active USB devices.

But it means nothing regarding the pupsave and the various sfs files that
may be mounted in RAM under /initrd/pup*.

IHTH.

[bigpup]

Now you are getting into what pupmode it is running in.
The save is used differently in each pupmode.

[musher0]

Hi bigpup.

Which is why I am more comfortable doing it "by hand", with one-liners such
as the ones above, on a "Pup-by-Pup" basis, instead of using the more
theoretical (IMO) pupmode approach. To each his own, I guess.

TWYL.

[hamoudoudou]

I agree with you Musher0. But to run with pendrive unplugged (or DVD removed) clarify things about How Puppy Linux is different from huge and slow Linux, because not loosing time and speed with hardisk or external supports.
"The Puppy Linux Trade mark is to be fast because it runs full in RAM.
"Puppy Linux is yet another Linux distribution. What's different here is that Puppy is extraordinarily small, yet quite full-featured. Puppy boots into a ramdisk and, unlike live CD distributions that have to keep pulling stuff off the CD, it loads into RAM. " Xenialpup 7.5, Distrowatch "

" Ideal ratio between size of pupsave and Size of RAM"
Pupsave is a container.. Should be size of what is contained of pupsave.
500MB pupsave as a barrel can be quite empty or full..
No answer to your question, i am searching as you. That is strange that last Xenialpup quick get very slow. I thought that kernels were the cause.. Perhaps they are, but perhaps not.
To answer the topic, you should analyze RAM with pupsave loaded.. Without pupsave is not really our target, is it ?

[gyro]

The save mechanism used by multi-session DVD, pupmode=77, is peculiar to it, and very different from the way a frugal install, pupmode=12/13, does it.
It uses neither a savefile, nor a savefolder. But appends a new "folder" to the DVD on every shutdown, and copies it back into ram on boot.
It is the only pupmode that provides persistence, while running completely in ram.

gyro

[musher0]

The save mechanism used by multi-session DVD, pupmode=77, is peculiar to it, and very different from the way a frugal install, pupmode=12/13, does it.
It uses neither a savefile, nor a savefolder. But appends a new "folder" to the DVD on every shutdown, and copies it back into ram on boot.
It is the only pupmode that provides persistence, while running completely in ram.

gyro

Hi gyro.

You are right, but I guess that this is one for PuppyLinux ... archeologists?

Who uses Puppy from a CD or DVD nowadays?!

TWYL.

[gyro]

Who uses Puppy from a CD or DVD nowadays?!

I suspect that hamoudoudou does.
gyro

[hamoudoudou]

"But to run with pendrive unplugged" is same as DVD withdrawn.. I should add with hard drive removed.. Don't do it.
The fact that you can remove hardware used to load an OS and go on using it with all applications Loaded is something specific to Puppy Linux, an huge progress.. Then all depends of RAM available, what is Musher0 ask an anwer for. : Knowing you RAM as 512mB sized, How much can contain your pupsave ? Ratio is the right word..
It depends on what apps you will use, which browser, do you play games.. Do you only write scripts for training ?
Processors need more or less place in RAM (lot at starting)
RAM needed = Active RAM (activted, working) + X = 512MB
If X too big, part of x will be kicked out to swap if there is one, computer will freeze if no place to unload RAM.
In Opposite to our dear devs, Some os choose load the less at boot, and load later stuff (postpone)
As videos, no need to load the complete movie to begin to watch it, loading can continue while you watch.. Loading the OS should be similar.

as nowadays an human is still needed, ask him to install apps when he needs them, and remove them when job done. That is 'SFS load on the fly"