Turn Your DebianDog Into Devuan - a simple howto

[anikin]

There is some confusion, here in this community, as to what really Devuan is all about. In a nutshell, the project's goal is to keep Debian loyal to the old and tested sysvinit init process (it is pronounced sys-FIVE-init, btw) and keep Debian systemd-free. Unfortunately, the project started with a lot of ideological hysteria and divisiveness. I categorically reject that part of Devuan and find it utterly pathetic. On the other hand, a lot of good folks have contributed a lot of hard work to the project. And their work deserves nothing but respect and appreciation. My personal position is this: regarding systemd, I am with official Debian. That being said, I'm not against Devuan and will be keeping an eye on how the project progresses.

There are two ways to have Devuan run on your computer:

1) Build it from scratch.
I have done it using the official Debian/Devuan tools debootstrap and chroot. Not an overly complicated thing to do, anyone with basic reading skills can do it and I'm going to post my little howto.

2) However, there's a ridiculously simple, "easier done, than said" method.
You can use any Debian Wheezy (or Jessie, but Wheezy would be better) and upgrade it to Devuan. For example, we can use DebianDog Wheezy and turn it into Devuan with the following steps:

1) /apt/sources.lst - Comment out all other lines in your sources.list and add the following

Code: Select all

deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main
deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main
deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main

2) run this command in the terminal

Code: Select all

apt-get update && apt-get install devuan-baseconf devuan-keyring && apt-get update

Code: Select all

The following NEW packages will be installed:
  devuan-baseconf devuan-keyring
0 upgraded, 2 newly installed, 0 to remove and 352 not upgraded.
Need to get 20.1 kB of archives.
After this operation, 115 kB of additional disk space will be used.
WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!
  devuan-baseconf devuan-keyring
Install these packages without verification [y/N]? y
Get:1 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie/main devuan-baseconf all 0.6.4+devuan1 [4270 B]
Get:2 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie/main devuan-keyring all 2015.05.05 [15.8 kB]
Fetched 20.1 kB in 0s (44.1 kB/s)    
Selecting previously unselected package devuan-baseconf.
(Reading database ... 25504 files and directories currently installed.)
Unpacking devuan-baseconf (from .../devuan-baseconf_0.6.4+devuan1_all.deb) ...
Selecting previously unselected package devuan-keyring.
Unpacking devuan-keyring (from .../devuan-keyring_2015.05.05_all.deb) ...
Setting up devuan-baseconf (0.6.4+devuan1) ...
Setting up devuan-keyring (2015.05.05) ...
OK
.............
... Done
root@debian:~#

if everything goes well, you will see the following dialogs (see the attached pictures) just press enter to confirm acceptance.
3) and this one

Code: Select all

cp /etc/apt/preferences.d/avoid-systemd /etc/apt/preferences.d/no-systemd

4) open the /etc/apt/preferences.d/no-systemd file and paste the following text into it

Code: Select all

Package: systemd-sysv
Pin: release o=Debian
Pin-Priority: -1

Package: systemd
Pin: release o=Debian
Pin-Priority: -1 

Package: systemd
Pin: release *
Pin-Priority: -1

5) now run this command

Code: Select all

apt-get autoremove --purge systemd libsystemd-login0 && apt-get upgrade

and finally let's run a quick test:

Code: Select all

apt-get install systemd

That's it. Systemd is gone, see the picture bellow.

https://devuan.org
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=93225

edit cleaned up the opening post and converted the attached images to jpeg to reduce their size.

[rufwoof]

Thanks for that detail anikin.

Isn't DebianDog Porteus boot already more or less Devuan style i.e. uses the initrd.gz type boot, whereas I boot using boot3 method i.e. initrd.img systemd type boot style - as that's the official Debian choice.

With boot3 I have a HDD frugal install arranged so that any official kernel updates can also be accepted rather than having to pin the kernel.

Much of the issues go over my head. I've read that there are deeper things that have to be changed/ported for Devuan to be rid of systemD i.e. I don't really understand much about the issues/arguments - I just use what works for me more from a 'end-user' type perspective.

When I looked at Devuan a few weeks back it was still very much in a beta type position. Under the systemD frugal I run I still run as root, frugally, with options to either write changes to disk as they occur, or just record changes in memory so they're either lost at reboot, or preserved if you run a script (very similar to the snapmergepuppy script). If there were a urgent kernel security patch/upgrade then its nice to know that I would get that rolled out/adopted quickly as per any other security patch/upgrade under systemD boot style. With initrd.gz style such fixes are perhaps less quick to be made and subject to you being aware of the need to make such changes.

[anikin]

Actually it's not about boot styles, but init systems and has nothing to do with initrd and kernels, except that systemd requires kernel > ~3.13 (need to look it up). Starting from Jessie, Debian has officially adopted systemd as its default init. Devuan, on the other hand has kept sysvinit as its only init system, rejected systemd and is striving to keep it at bay. Security updates isn't a problem for Devuan as their repositories are "merged" with the official Debian repos and as such both will have identical security updates.

[dancytron]

Debian Dog 32 bit gives you the choice between sysvinit and systemd. Sysvinit is the default.

Debian Dog 64 bit doesn't even support systemd. You must use sysvinit.

How is what you proposing any different/better than just using the defaults in Debian Dog?

Do all the existing packages in Debian Dog match what is in Devuan? Don't you risk conflicts if just change the repositories on Debian Dog without replacing everything if an existing package in Debian Dog is different than its equivalent in Devuan?

[mcewanw]

I presume the mods anikin suggest are to do with possible systemd dependencies if you don't use repositories specially made not to have such? In which, case I suppose his suggestions would indeed be an easy way to create your own Devuan-compatible distribution out of the likes of DebianDog. Interesting idea if my presumption is correct.

Once again, I personally hope as many people will come together to put a focus into DebianDog developments rather than these good ideas just becoming scattered notions or separate projects. Continuity and support is the key to developing a strong project IMO.

I know there have been some personal disputes and anger amongst some who are Debian-interested, such disputes are probably inevitable from time to time amongst talented people with strong personal ideas, but I hope any such negativity can be put behind us. I really hope Fred will join in to repair any such conflicts and use DebianDog github and webpage as a vehicle to further what has turned out to be an innovative project here on the Puppy Linux forums. Not Puppy Linux made from debs, but an equally useful/attractive Puppy-like system. I'm certainly not against woof-CE or Puppy itself - there are reasons Puppy was created and such reasons don't go away IMO, but DebianDog is an alternative, which has its own attractions too.

Of course, we can and do sometimes use full Debian/Ubuntu/MintPup or make our own flavours of official Debian Live releases, but DebianDog is a specially crafted distribution which is a bit more than just a spin - it has uniqueness in its own right IMO.

Anyway, DebianDog itself will continue to be strongly developed in the future, I'm quite sure. Personally, I still hope Toni will see the error he made leaving as he did, and we will forgive that, I'm sure, without comment should he return. I hate to see him potentially wasting his great talent should his new project ideas not go anywhere - there would never be anything to stop him producing that further cut-down/alternative DebianDog mold as yet another DebianDog style spin. So come back Toni, and let's put all these bad feelings away. Whatever.

William

[rufwoof]

Debian Dog 32 bit gives you the choice between sysvinit and systemd. Sysvinit is the default.

Debian Dog 64 bit doesn't even support systemd. You must use sysvinit.

How is what you proposing any different/better than just using the defaults in Debian Dog?

Do all the existing packages in Debian Dog match what is in Devuan? Don't you risk conflicts if just change the repositories on Debian Dog without replacing everything if an existing package in Debian Dog is different than its equivalent in Devuan?

I boot porteus style for both DD32 and DD64, which opens up using lz4 compressed squashfs (sfs). For frugal installed Debian Jessie 64 KDE I use boot 3 style (which I believe is systemd style) where vmlinuz and initrd.img in the root folder are sym links into /boot folder copies, so I believe that Debian triggered kernel updates are ok. Grub4dos menu.lst entry of

Code: Select all

title 0 Debian Jessie Frugal RO only saves if run flush2disk
find --set-root /live/frugalboot
kernel /vmlinuz boot=live config persistence persistence-read-only persistence-label=persistence quickreboot noprompt showmounts live-media-path=/live/ config
initrd /initrd.img

which is like pupmode 13 ataflash with no save timeout (never save) puppy style booting, so the only time it saves is if you run the equivalent of snapmergepuppy (which after Fred/myself tweaked I renamed to flush2disk to help avoid confusion).

I really don't get the difference myself (my lack of understanding). I thought it was just different boot/init styles (again my lack of understanding has me using the wrong terminology). I have read that some programs have been changed by Devuan to 'eliminate' systemd entirely. Not that I haven't tried to grasp the concepts/arguments, but sadly most seem to go over my head (I just don't get it).

In my minds eye, I just see systemd as being more modular/controlled, all working to the same set of modules rather than inducing more independent/different versions. Which if so IMO is a good thing as it makes the init more like the kernel, where you can choose elements to include or exclude, based on a set of modules that are commonly worked on/produced so as to be more robust. But I'm conscious that passions seem to run very high and if you ask a question one way or the other more often is seems to kick off a heated debate around topics/concepts I don't really understand about the differences between the two (including ethics/politics).

I use both and both work well for me. I understand initrd.gz style more as I've known that the longer (via puppy linux) ... and how to extract/change that. systemd I know very little about, other than some familiarity with the various kernel boot parameters that can be used. On bootup the systemd does seem to be the more complete, detecting and setting up a lot of things that perhaps a puppy initrd.gz type boot might not detect/setup. I plugged in a old bluetooth usb device just yesterday and it detected/setup that just fine, apt-get blue-devil and a old phone was linked and data transferring within minutes under Debian KDE. I imagine in contrast puppy would have taken more effort/investigation.

[mcewanw]

Probably the main reason DebianDog truly got off the ground and forged ahead for years, by the way, was that back in the beginning Toni was very humble about his own skills and encouraged any and all ideas from others. I think he realised back then that it is best to embrace diversity and encourage ideas rather than to haughtily dismiss them. Things did change a bit over the years, unfortunately, partly because some posters had a tendency to voice their views quite aggressively and appear quite arrogant. I trust we can get back to that earlier, more embracing, development model.

DebianDog has been a very dynamic and active project, and I think that early approach and attitude, which positively encouraged new ideas (which are always good) is why it managed, to a great extent, to remain so over the years.

Whilst I myself have no particularly strong feeling pro or against systemd (and being in any case only familiar with traditional initd operation), there is clearly a wide interest in the Devuan-like alternative. This idea should be thought about more, developed and tested, to address any difficulties that may be encountered. It really seems like a solid idea to me.

William

[anikin]

I presume the mods anikin suggest are to do with possible systemd dependencies if you don't use repositories specially made not to have such? In which, case I suppose his suggestions would indeed be an easy way to create your own Devuan-compatible distribution out of the likes of DebianDog. Interesting idea if my presumption is correct.

You're absolutely correct, William and let me add this: I appreciate your levelheaded and thoughtful comments. I want to make one thing clear, though. I harbor no ill feelings against Toni, I disagree on some technical aspects with him, but I have never been arrogant with him. I actually wanted to post this howto in the DebianDog Howto section, but it's become so diluted and vandalized with irrelevant posts lately. It would really be great if this thread catches Toni's attention. I'm sure he will like it and make some variant of DevuanDog based on it. I'm also planning to post a slightly more serious, an "adult," "build it from scratch" howto. I also edited and cleaned up the opening post a little bit.

[backi]

Hi you all !

Good Spirit here............like it

[Pelo]

If you like you can use Puduan by Sailor enceladus, i am running it right now.. i don't see what Devuan brings more than Debian.. or less perhaps.
No need to judge, packages Devuan are provided by PPM puduan. Just for info and test if some of you want discover how puppy does it.

[hamoudoudou]

It would be a shame to use our little Puppy.. They to do as well.. speed, saving session, pets..
Really DebianDogs are on the way to success.
Puppy Pupjibaro kindly provides synaptic for Debian people who would try it..
I have a Devuan Jessie too, because i am curious. And this Devuan done by Dogs please me.

[fredx181]

And this Devuan done by Dogs please me.
.....
Dogs provide a Live CD

????????????
That Devuan live CD is... Devuan by the Devuan developers.
Nothing to do with "Dogs".

Fred

[darry19662018]

It would be a shame to use our little Puppy.. They to do as well.. speed, saving session, pets..
Really DebianDogs are on the way to success.
Puppy Pupjibaro kindly provides synaptic for Debian people who would try it..
I have a Devuan Jessie too, because i am curious. And this Devuan done by Dogs please me.

Wrong facts and polluting a thread well done Hammy.

[hamoudoudou]

Sorry, "done by Dogs" not yet. . It's the ISO from Devuan site..
The main difficulty was to find password at boot (october 2017)
root
toor
Suggested by anikin for Puppy users to learn Debian Live-CD Click !
devuan_jessie_1.0.0_i386_desktop-live
I have Live CDs at Home, . If i use Puppy Linux, it is because it is my prefered OS, Everything is fast, not only install..