restructuring puppy

[hamoudoudou]

Wen you use several Puppies , most of us, only one SFS has to be stored. You load it as you like on ten of your puppies
If you insert in adrives, you will need as many as Puppies, in my example 10.. When only one should be enough.
It's like variables in programming..
Whatever you suggest, downloaders will have to learn English first..
Some devs speak poor English, you should consider that too.
Puppy Linux decided to give ready for use ISO, and that was clever..

[nosystemdthanks]

so i guess there are two things that could come out of this thread--

the first one is that i want to be sure i can offer dancytron (he still posts, yes?) and jlst what they were talking about it.

my approach to that will be very simple. iso goes in, iso comes out. nothing else to do-- it just turns it into what they want. (yes, just two people. though im willing to hear everyone elses ideas.)

that may make it a LOT easier to use that iso to do some of the things everyone else is talking about-- simply through restructuring it.

then theres the matter of the other good ideas being talked about here. i cant commit to those at this time. that doesnt mean im not interested, or that theyre not good ideas, or that i definitely wont do anything related to that.

what im talking about is a program that automatically restructures a puppy cd. the other ideas are more work, and im guessing that work is ongoing.

also wanderer, dont feel im ignoring you-- i like symlinks too, i told you about the url problem so you can fix that, let me know when its fixed. thanks. please continue to throw your ideas in when you want.

some of these ideas are separate from what i was talking about-- thats ok, just because theyre separate doesnt mean they have lesser merit. they may even be better ideas, though some of them i think would be a lot more work.

im trying to take one big idea and make it easier to do.

as for those repos, i have a suggestion to everyone: virtual repos.

whats a virtual repo? a listing of files that exist somewhere else, to be used like a package.

for example, to make a virtual repo that had icewm in it, youd simply say

1. which puppy version
2. which package type (deb, pet, tcz)
3. url of icewm package
4. urls of the packages it needs

there you go-- you just "made" a package for icewm in 4 (or more) lines of plain text.

so why do that? because people can take your virtual "repos" and put them online (mirror them) and use them for the sorts of things that custom-builder did.

its a lot cheaper than making real repos.

if you dont like the idea, i definitely dont recommend doing it.

this idea is separate from what i was talking about before, too.

[nosystemdthanks]

Wen you use several Puppies , most of us, only one SFS has to be stored. You load it as you like on ten of your puppies
If you insert in adrives, you will need as many as Puppies, in my example 10.. When only one should be enough.

pelo (probably) has a valid point here. if you make LOTS of adrvs (10 for example) then frugal installers will have a lot more files to copy. no longer is frugal install "just copy kernel, initrd, sfs, adrv" its more.

not that im starting that... i mean there are already other puppies that are more like this. more modular.

this is relevant to the first post, im inclined to address this.

i can think of two ways to deal with this:

1. avoid becoming TOO modular. i wasnt necessarily thinking of making lots of adrvs, its something i thought might come up and would be willing to tackle. keep it under 10 (there are already puppies with more than one adrv i believe. or more than one sfs besides core and zdrv. or closer to what pelo is worried about at least.)

2. offer a frugal-helper that takes the MANY modular things and puts them into a "single" frugal sfs, so that you can have all your different modules in a single frugal sfs. this is doable.

id definitely like to hear what people think of pelos concern here, its actually something i thought of too, so if necessary just pretend someone else said it... backi, i hear you. cheers.

to clarify one thing: i think the idea can work whether it adds one or two adrvs or 10 or 20. i dont have a strong preference which direction that goes-- but i think the direction i take should consider fans of frugal (i am also a fan of frugal, but the consideration about this is not for myself. i like frugal, but i dont use it that much these days.)

[wanderer]

hi nosystemdthanks

the url is fixed so people can download the corepup iso

so your idea is

puppy iso goes in
your script adds packages as requested
puppy iso comes out

i like it simple fast and flexible

can you make a very minimal iso
so we can start with that
and learn the absolute minimum that is needed

as for symlinks they are cool but classic puppy uses unionfs

thanks for considering doing this
and for all the other help
it could be a real asset for puppy


wanderer

[mikeslr]

Hi again All,

This does not address the concerns posted by other since my last post. Immediately after posting I drove to my bank --it will be closed tomorrow-- on auto-pilot while thoughts of Saluki were still being tossed around by my surviving brain cells.

Two things occurred to me. One was the first 'system improvement' regarding Saluki I've had since its publication. Adrv does not have to be packaged as part of the ISO. It can be offered as a separate download for those who want it.

The second is perhaps a premature announcement. RSH --now posting under the handle ITSMERSH-- is working on renovating PaDS. You can find the last published version, PaDS 1.0.4, here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 359#658359. You can find posts regarding its use, and the limitations of PaDS 1.0.4 by typing "PaDS mikeslr" into the search box @ https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=015995643 ... #gsc.tab=0. As envisioned, the renovated PaDS will be able to combine pets, debs, SFSes, tar.gzes, txzes and tazpkgs packages into a SFS Module, however you acquire such packages including downloads via PPM or web-browser.

What the combined SFS is named is a choice the user makes. Name it adrv_MY-PUPPY-VERSION.sfs, and you'd have an adrv.

Whether the renovated PaDS would be included as a "core" application would be up to the Woof Devs. But it is a small no-arch download which can be used in any Puppy --with the exception of corepup-- semi-dependent on only one other application, xdotools. The version of xdotools should be one appropriate for your Puppy, or at least its architecture (32 or 64 bit). As envisioned, PaDS will be able to function without xdotools on any Puppy that can provide Right-Click options. But xdotools, even on those, would enable greater functionality.

Corepup packages are currently not on the drawing board for inclusion as corepup appears --on casual reading-- to be substantially different than other Puppies: more "core" than "pup".

It is possible that ITSMERSH would welcome the assistance of additional volunteers --testors in general, and especially anyone possessing bash and gtk-dialog skills.

mikesLr

[s243a]

how about a little woof-ce starter kit
that is very minimal very fast and very simple
that us common folk could use
to make our little isos
and learn how things work

one could always level up
to the full master kit
as they become a guru

i would certainly appreciate it
maybe others would as well

now back to my box

wanderer

Does this do what you want?

Auto-build a Puppy iso; single script with optional gui

[s243a]

Wen you use several Puppies , most of us, only one SFS has to be stored. You load it as you like on ten of your puppies
If you insert in adrives, you will need as many as Puppies, in my example 10.. When only one should be enough.

pelo (probably) has a valid point here. if you make LOTS of adrvs (10 for example) then frugal installers will have a lot more files to copy. no longer is frugal install "just copy kernel, initrd, sfs, adrv" its more.

not that im starting that... i mean there are already other puppies that are more like this. more modular.

this is relevant to the first post, im inclined to address this.

i can think of two ways to deal with this:

1. avoid becoming TOO modular. i wasnt necessarily thinking of making lots of adrvs, its something i thought might come up and would be willing to tackle. keep it under 10 (there are already puppies with more than one adrv i believe. or more than one sfs besides core and zdrv. or closer to what pelo is worried about at least.)

The installers can take care of the file copying or alternatively a simple readme file that says which files that I need to copy.

As for how to break it out, I like wander's suggestion here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 779#997779

However, except for very old computers I would tend to favour a layered file system over a symlinked one. I do though have one old computer where I think that the symlinked approach will be better. ...but in most cases I prefer the standard puppy approach.

Hmmm....I wonder if corepup would be a great system for running many virtual machines at once given the lighter weight nature of symlinkes.

[nosystemdthanks]

Does this do what you want?

Auto-build a Puppy iso; single script with optional gui

i know youre asking wanderer, i may be able to answer for him (with caution.)

first, im a huge fan of that script. to me its "woof done right" where "right" is no disrepect to the woof team, just "right" as in "the way i would do it myself."

but to clarify, that is simply an ideal version of woof. while wanderers goal always seems to be (more like an idea i had 2 years ago) take something else and make it more like puppy-- rather than take puppy itself and improve it.



on the more immediate topic:

The installers can take care of the file copying or alternatively a simple readme file that says which files that I need to copy.

speaking personally, im ok with that. i wonder how many frugal fans would agree, or if they would love that they could simply "not copy" things they didnt want or need?

when i put it that way, im happier about going forward with greater modularity. though i know im being a bit optimistic about it.

[wanderer]

hi everyone
i have read the whole thread
so i am taking into consideration
what i think everyone has said

i like what i think is nosystemdthanks idea

puppy iso in
script adds specified packages
puppy iso out

start with totally minimal puppy iso
just enough to start the process
nosystemdthanks or some other guru supplies this

another script that processes
everything from everywhere
into packages that will work in this system

is this what i hear is being suggested ?

wanderer

[wanderer]

the solution to multiple sfs files
the script builds into 1 sfs everything on a list

iso in
script list 1
iso out 1 sfs file

iso list 1 in
script list 2
iso out 2 sfs files

iso in
script list 1 + list 2
iso out 1 sfs file

so you could control how many sfs files needed to be loaded
and you could save lists for future reference

wanderer

[dancytron]

nosystemd,

To remove the browser and some applications, remaster, and then construct an adrv with the same applications that you removed is not that difficult. I've done it as an experiment a couple of times.

If you want to repeat that experiment, more power to you. But, unless the people who are actually constructing and supporting the official or semi-official (I'd call radky's Stretch Puppy semi-official) adopt it, it really doesn't make any difference.

Puppy is a doacracy. You wanted a list.

For a proof of concept, I'd just remove the browser, abiword, and gnumeric. They are the biggest space consumers. Then produce 3 alternative adrv's:

1. an adrv with just Fred's firefox portable,
2. Fred's firefox portable, abiword, and gnumeric, and
3. Fred's firefox portable and libreoffice.

(I am suggesting Fred's portable firefox because a lot of the work is already done, you can just paste it into an SFS and it will work')

Set them up into 3 ISO's and upload them.

Dan

[wanderer]

hi all

the new nosystemdthanks puppy development system
(please forgive me nosystemdthanks)

3 scripts

1. script that builds the totally minimal iso
to start the process

2. script that builds an sfs file based on a list of packages

3. script that converts everything from everywhere
into packages the system can use

minimal iso loads what sfs files are desired
and you now have just the puppy you want

you can save
minimal isos
sfs files
and lists
for reference
and so things dont have to be done again
and mix and match them as you want

i couldnt build it
but i would use it

anyway dont pay any attention to me
just making suggestions

wanderer

[wanderer]

there may already be a great base for this system
that could save a great deal of time and work

i would look at goingnuts pupngo project
it is very similar
and there is a 700 mg tarball
with a lot of his stuff related to the project

thats what i would do if i was a genius

wanderer

[nosystemdthanks]

nosystemd,

To remove the browser and some applications, remaster, and then construct an adrv with the same applications that you removed is not that difficult. I've done it as an experiment a couple of times.

oh listen, ive already made things to remaster puppy, thats no concern. if you want proof of concept ive got proof of concept going back 2 years.

If you want to repeat that experiment, more power to you.

not at all, and im glad youre in this thread because this is basically a reply to your post.

But, unless the people who are actually constructing and supporting the official or semi-official (I'd call radky's Stretch Puppy semi-official) adopt it

well, which puppy is most official to you? i prefer tahr but i suppose its xenial now. would you be so kind as to point me to the url for a single "official" iso? im not being sarcastic nor do i need help finding the downloads section, but its your answer in particular that id like to this. please.

Puppy is a doacracy. You wanted a list.

i still do. when i get the iso url and list i intend to start doing.

For a proof of concept, I'd just remove the browser, abiword, and gnumeric. They are the biggest space consumers. Then produce 3 alternative adrv's:

1. an adrv with just Fred's firefox portable,
2. Fred's firefox portable, abiword, and gnumeric, and
3. Fred's firefox portable and libreoffice.

for starters i was planning to just change the contents of one iso and multiple adrvs. if thats not what you were talking about in wanderers thread would you explain the idea further so i have a better idea what im setting out to do?

multiple isos was not part of the idea i thought. doable perhaps, but leaves me wanting more explanation.



also, from you and bigpup, please point me to where this is already being done (especially if its up to date.)

whether i want to duplicate efforts already made depends on what efforts were already successful. if bigpup says this idea is done many times already, i want to know why im signing up to do it again.

if you dont think its useful please say so, then i would turn my attention to corepup instead.

it was your idea originally (as in your version of the idea in wanderers thread) so im going to put the greatest stock in your opinion about it. let me know. cheers.

[greengeek]

One of the features I wish for is the ability to boot a generic pup - then make a customisation (which might be as simple as creating a text file somewhere, or deleting a text file somewhere) then trap that customisation and have it set in concrete in an sfs - which I can load or unload at will.

The customisation might be much more complex than just adding a text file - i might be adding a whole suite of artistic utilities, or a whole suite of browsers.

Of course this is what is normally encapsulated in a save file or save folder - but I want the ability to "snapshot" the system at some point (or multiple points) after boot and create the individually named sfs files as/when required and load them later (either at boot or on the fly).

I think this is sort of like the multisession CD choices that were previously available - except that I would like the ability to create the "sfs snapshots" as many times as I want before shutdown.

[jamesbond]

For the ultimate customisation (in case some of you missed it): Fatdog ISO Builder. Edit text file, put in your list of packages, then run build script to make SFS or ISO. You can even test your build without re-booting - just run the newly-built SFS/ISO with qemu (scripts to do that is included in the package). Don't like it, just edit the text file, and build again. Rinse and repeat until clean.

Downside? If the package you want doesn't exist, you need to hunt it down from Fatdog64 Contributed Packages thread, or build it yourself. Tools to build packages is included in Fatdog too. So you have all the bases covered.

But of course it's not Puppy, it's Fatdog. But Fatdog is once a pup too, right?

[nic007]

I've been using Puppy as a modular system for years. No need to remaster and the base sfs always intact. A request could simply be that the publisher of a new official Puppy releases two flavours, one with the standard builtin applications and another without the standard builtin applications. Having said that - it's quite easy to remove the builtin software you don't want albeit that the remove builtin apllication is a bit cumbersome to use. We actually just need a more user friendly script to remove builtin applications (eg. One where the user can select all those applications to be removed in one go and in one operation. Currently you have to select one by one). We also need a comprehensive library of ready-made sfs add-on files.

[nic007]

One of the features I wish for is the ability to boot a generic pup - then make a customisation (which might be as simple as creating a text file somewhere, or deleting a text file somewhere) then trap that customisation and have it set in concrete in an sfs - which I can load or unload at will.

The customisation might be much more complex than just adding a text file - i might be adding a whole suite of artistic utilities, or a whole suite of browsers.

Of course this is what is normally encapsulated in a save file or save folder - but I want the ability to "snapshot" the system at some point (or multiple points) after boot and create the individually named sfs files as/when required and load them later (either at boot or on the fly).

I think this is sort of like the multisession CD choices that were previously available - except that I would like the ability to create the "sfs snapshots" as many times as I want before shutdown.

I include the sfs files I always want to load in the ydrv (in my case java and wine) and the others as add-ons to be loaded on the fly if needed during a session. The process of loading on the fly can be simplified by making a one-click script for each add-on sfs (or one script where you can select those you want to load on the fly).