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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
How Risky Is It To Install Grub4dos to MBR/Windows Drive?
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mdiemer

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 17:03    Post subject:  How Risky Is It To Install Grub4dos to MBR/Windows Drive?  

I an trying to get Puppy Linux 412 and Windows 98 to boot from grub. Windows is on sda. PL is on sdb2. I put grub on sdb2 also. When I boot that drive, PL boots fine, but Windows gets hung up. It boots, but then hangs on the desktop. Windows boots fine from its own drive (sda).

I could try installing grub to sda, but I'm concerned about messing up Windows so that it won't boot at all. Is my fear justified? how great is the risk?
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13160
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 17:51    Post subject:  

Hello mdiemer.

I haven't used WhideDose in years. My two computers are Puppy only.

With that said, it wasn't risky then to install grub4dos as an option of the
WhineDose boot. and it shouldn't be now. (If you follow the correct
procedure.)

There's a way to install the grub4dos "engine" outside the MBR. The trick,
you see, is to not upset WhineDose, to not puncture its perception that it
is ruling the world!!! Laughing

So you let WhineDose boot, and since its launcher now has a 2nd option,
it stops to ask you, it does not boot WhineDose immediately. You specify
"grub" (you type a number, IIRC) and then the usual grub menu shows
up.

It isn't fresh to my memory, but a LUG (Linux User Group) from a city in
the US had a nice and simple explanation of how to do that on its web site.

Best of luck.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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perdido


Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 1061
Location: ¿Altair IV , Just north of Eeyore Junction.?

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 18:43    Post subject:  

I believe musher is referring to something like what is described here
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=723229&sid=039688b16fc71a762eebed63111bce80#723229
Which works and is easy.

Win98 is a different animule though.

.

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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11375
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 19:32    Post subject:  

Install Grub4dos to MBR/Windows Drive will replace the normal windows boot loader.

I think the issue is something about Windows 98 and the way it boots.

For now, I would keep the boot setup the way you have it.

I think I would look for some specific requirements for Windows 98 menu entry in a Grub menu.
Seems the Grub4dos menu entry, for Windows 98, is working, but needs some special tweaking that is specific to Windows 98.

Example:
This works for someone booting with Grub.
Code:
menuentry "Windows 98" {
        insmod chain
        insmod fat32
        set root=(hd0,1)
        chainloader (hd0,1)+1

With your setup (hd0,1) may need to be (hd0,0)

If Grub4dos boot loader was installed to sdb.
On sdb1 you should find the Grub4dos boot menu file menu.lst
Open in a text editor to edit

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mdiemer

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 22:27    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:
Hello mdiemer.

I haven't used WhideDose in years. My two computers are Puppy only.

With that said, it wasn't risky then to install grub4dos as an option of the
WhineDose boot. and it shouldn't be now. (If you follow the correct
procedure.)

There's a way to install the grub4dos "engine" outside the MBR. The trick,
you see, is to not upset WhineDose, to not puncture its perception that it
is ruling the world!!! Laughing

So you let WhineDose boot, and since its launcher now has a 2nd option,
it stops to ask you, it does not boot WhineDose immediately. You specify
"grub" (you type a number, IIRC) and then the usual grub menu shows
up.

It isn't fresh to my memory, but a LUG (Linux User Group) from a city in
the US had a nice and simple explanation of how to do that on its web site.

Best of luck.


Thanks Musher0. I'll have to really look at this. Right now it is probably more than I want to get into. I'm hoping for a quick fix, I admit it! If I don't find it right off, I will be content to select each drive in bios. A bit of a pain, but foolproof, and it works.

Makes a lot of sense Bigpup. It seems so close to working that it must be some simple little tweak. I'll keep on researching it.

Last edited by mdiemer on Thu 19 Jul 2018, 22:33; edited 1 time in total
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mdiemer

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 22:31    Post subject:  

perdido wrote:
I believe musher is referring to something like what is described here
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=723229&sid=039688b16fc71a762eebed63111bce80#723229
Which works and is easy.

Win98 is a different animule though.

.


Thanks Perdido. I took a look at the thread you provided, and as I said above to Musher, it looks like more trouble than it is worth at this point. I'm going to continue researching this in hopes of a nice, tidy solution. I guess I've been spoiled by the ease of dual-booting with more recent versions of Windows. I'm even considering upgrading to Windows 2000, or even XP. How crazy is that, upgrading one dead version of Windows to another. God, retirement is boring...
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ozsouth

Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 398
Location: S.E Australia

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 23:50    Post subject:  

Grub4dos bootloader can be removed via ms-sys utility (is in some puppies). Just running it in a console gives you a list of switches - you would run something like:
ms-sys -9 /dev/sda
which would write a win 95/98 mbr. Warning - getting it wrong could render a partition unusable, so use at own risk.
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13160
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 08:01    Post subject:  

Hello all.

A good alternative for this -- that is often overlooked nowadays -- is
booting from CD or DVD. (Assuming that your PC has a CD/DVD.)

If you have copied your main Puppy sfs on the hard drive, Puppy's boot
process will detect it and switch to it. It will use just the boot part from the
Puppy CD/DVD, not run entirely from it.

Then the Puppy on the HD recognizes the pupsave on the HD and uses it.

It's almost as fast as booting from HD, the advantage being that you are
not disturbing anything from the WhineDose setup.

IHTH.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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mdiemer

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 09:51    Post subject:  

ozsouth wrote:
Grub4dos bootloader can be removed via ms-sys utility (is in some puppies). Just running it in a console gives you a list of switches - you would run something like:
ms-sys -9 /dev/sda
which would write a win 95/98 mbr. Warning - getting it wrong could render a partition unusable, so use at own risk.


Thanks ozsouth. I will keep that in mind if the need arises (like I do install grub to MBR and W98 won't boot).
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mdiemer

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 09:54    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:
Hello all.

A good alternative for this -- that is often overlooked nowadays -- is
booting from CD or DVD. (Assuming that your PC has a CD/DVD.)

If you have copied your main Puppy sfs on the hard drive, Puppy's boot
process will detect it and switch to it. It will use just the boot part from the
Puppy CD/DVD, not run entirely from it.

Then the Puppy on the HD recognizes the pupsave on the HD and uses it.

It's almost as fast as booting from HD, the advantage being that you are
not disturbing anything from the WhineDose setup.

IHTH.


Interesting. I will give that a try. Also, what about booting from Floppy? I did put grub on floppy, but when computer boots from it, all i get is "grub..." at the top left, then nothing else. not sure what I'm supposed to do at that point. It doesn't seem to be a command line.
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mostly_lurking

Joined: 25 Jun 2014
Posts: 285

PostPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 11:38    Post subject:  

mdiemer wrote:
Also, what about booting from Floppy? I did put grub on floppy, but when computer boots from it, all i get is "grub..." at the top left, then nothing else. not sure what I'm supposed to do at that point. It doesn't seem to be a command line.

That's not normal. If you installed Grub4Dos on the floppy, it should show a boot menu similar to the one you got when you installed it to sdb. When I tried it, the menu had different colors (green background), but was otherwise pretty much the same. Can you see the Grub4Dos files (grldr, menu.lst, ...) on the floppy? EDIT: I just tried it with Grub instead of Grub4Dos, and got the same problem. So, maybe try the floppy option in Grub4Dos instead.

As musher0 mentioned, you can also boot Puppy from its CD, just like you did before you installed it on the HDD. But as far as I know, you can't use a full install that way. You would have to run it like a frugal install, where it loads its system files - stored inside the .sfs file(s) on the CD - into RAM and creates a savefile on the hard drive to save any changes you make to the system. You can copy its main .sfs file (named pup_412.sfs or similar) from the CD onto the HDD, from where Puppy can load it faster. If Puppy can fit all of its data into RAM so that it doesn't have to access the CD anymore, you can even remove the disk at runtime when you need the CD drive for something else.

Of course, the CD would require you to insert/remove it everytime you want to switch between Windows and Linux. The floppy would probably be a more convenient solution - if you can get it working and it manages to boot Windows.

Booting from the /dev/sdb drive seems to be a bigger problem than it initially seemed, or perhaps your Windows 98 install just really hates Linux bootloaders. (I'm afraid I'm lost on that one... Grub4Dos worked for me, as I mentioned in your other thread, and I couldn't reproduce the "Windows hangs at login/desktop" issue. So I have no idea how to fix that.)

Installing a new bootloader on /dev/sda seems to be the only thing not tried yet apart from the floppy boot (which might be worth another try), but of course, it has the risk of rendering the Windows system unbootable; although, as ozsouth remarked, there may be ways to fix it.

In one of my posts I mentioned a BIOS boot menu that can be invoked by pressing a key (for example, "F12") when the computer boots, that allows to select which hard drive or other device to boot from. Does your computer have something like this? It would be more practical than shuffling boot media around or changing the boot order in the BIOS settings all the time, and it would not require making any changes to the Windows bootloader.
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mdiemer

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 16:13    Post subject:  

[quote
(mostly_lurking)
In one of my posts I mentioned a BIOS boot menu that can be invoked by pressing a key (for example, "F12") when the computer boots, that allows to select which hard drive or other device to boot from. Does your computer have something like this? It would be more practical than shuffling boot media around or changing the boot order in the BIOS settings all the time, and it would not require making any changes to the Windows bootloader.[/quote]

Yes, it is what I have been doing. But it is inconvenient, as I need to reset it to Windows when through, which means shutting down and restarting to make sda default again. You have to do it every time. In my 10 y/o Gateway, I can set a default in bios (F2), and also choose boot drive (F10) on the fly. That way, computer will boot to a default drive, but I just hit F10 to select a different one. But in the 20 y/0 Gateway, there is only one configuration, and it must be done each time. Unless the wife is willing to learn how to do it, I have to remember to change it after using Puppy, or that's what she will get next time she decides to use computer.
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mdiemer

Joined: 14 Jul 2018
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat 21 Jul 2018, 17:22    Post subject:  

I think it is best that I just keep Windows drive as default, and use the live CD. By the time I change the boot drive drive in bios, there's not that much difference in boot time. Maybe there's a way to dual boot Windows 98 and Puppy on this system using grub, but for now this seems to be the best solution,
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hamoudoudou

Joined: 24 Jul 2014
Posts: 1467
Location: rabat

PostPosted: Sun 22 Jul 2018, 02:27    Post subject: Windows Seven  

Windows seven and later : there is no real risk to install Grub4dos in sda1, boot partition in Windows Seven.. But do not install anything else here..
Sda1 in Windows XP is Sda2 Windows Seven.
sda1.jpg
 Description   Sda1 size is 100mb.
 Filesize   39.4 KB
 Viewed   131 Time(s)

sda1.jpg

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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13160
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 22 Jul 2018, 08:49    Post subject:  

mdiemer wrote:
I think it is best that I just keep Windows drive as default, and use the live CD. By the time I change the boot drive drive in bios, there's not that much difference in boot time. Maybe there's a way to dual boot Windows 98 and Puppy on this system using grub, but for now this seems to be the best solution,

Indeed, in your situation, it would seem so.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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