Puppy's big problem with woof and woof CE

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mikeslr · #101 Post by **mikeslr** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 18:56

I agree with musher0. If a Puppy is to attract the attention of a newbie, it should contain 'real-world' applications at least sufficient to enable anyone to carry out the real-world tasks everyone is likely to engage in. Newbies are not going to woof their own Puppies. Which applications will accomplish that is a decision of the Dev creating the Puppy. (S)he should not have the additional burden of removing (or not choosing to incorporate) applications Woof would install by default.

One of the insights Barry K had in creating Woof was to relieve Puppy of the burden of maintaining repositories for applications and using the bandwidth needed to deploy them. The 'promise' of a Puppy's binary-compatibility was that a Puppy user could access the repositories of compatible distro version and install the applications already created for that distro version. That promise may have been 'wishful thinking' during the initial implementations of Woof. Thanks to the efforts of those working on Woof, at least since 2014 with Tahrpup and perhaps earlier with Slacko 5.7 that wish has been pretty-much fulfilled. And that condition has existed before ITSMERSH developed PaDS and Scottman created Pkg-Cli.

It seems to me that while it may have been necessary when woof was created that it include basic applications, that necessity no longer exists and woof has not been modified to remove it. Failure to do so complicates the work of the Devs who create Puppies. But it also increases the burden on those who maintain Woof. Regardless of how small a burden that may be, it still involves at least carrying forward code which is no longer needed (and serves at best as a distraction) and at worst modifying that code to select the 'right' version of the application for inclusion.

oui · #102 Post by **oui** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 19:04

wanderer, you are right (are you perhaps BK under an anonym pseudo?)

«Newbies are not going to woof their own Puppies.»

certainly but newbies use the wrong difficult puppies BLIND made by the different woof's distro builders... and have great difficulties. that, what I often read in the first subdivision of the forum is terrible...

their are billions of old PC's on the world. in USA 1/3 of the population has no Internet (in France too!).

if one decide to try, please, give him a chance to realize a dream...

wanderer · #103 Post by **wanderer** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 19:06

hi mikeslr and oui and musher0

do you think having a woof-ce
that is set up to be a simple basic run
with only one repository selected
no choices need to be made at first

would be of any value to the puppy community
as a starting point

for newbees the full isos would already be made
so they would just have to download them

but as they got more into it
they could try the simple woof-ce
and go from there

wanderer

Colonel Panic · #104 Post by **Colonel Panic** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 19:41

Burn_IT wrote:When I started using Puppy, back before I died, I particularly liked it because even though it was not large, if you wanted to do something there was a tool for it AND ONLY ONE.
It wasn't cluttered with multiple browsers and such, you got one way of doing things, like it or lump it.

That's right, and that was why it managed to stay small despite having so many applications. From memory, my first Puppy was 2.00 and that one had Seamonkey for both the internet and e-mail, and Abiword and Gnumeric for general office work (Abiword wasn't for some reason as buggy then as it is now).

I think it had Dillo as well for browsing the internet, but I didn't use it as much. All in about a 100 MB iso.

I can't really comment on the technical questions regarding woof etc. as I don't know enough. I think jd7654 makes some good points concerning how the bar concerning what counts as being an old computer has shifted over the years, but I believe Puppy should retain the goal of being able to run well on machines that would run the latest version of Windows badly if at all (and it does).

wanderer · #105 Post by **wanderer** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 19:54

yes the old ones were great

i started with 201
and remastered it

but i also tried the others
and tried to simplify and minimize stuff
micromuppy and i forget all the names

like i said
i started out with what was already made
and learned a lot and got deeper into things

but for me the attraction was
puppy was small and hackable

the other distros couldn't be hacked

i think it would be a good exercise
to make a minimal woof-ce
and then build on it
so other people can have the same experience we had

i am going to play with it
since hopefully i will now have a little time
i probably will not get far but it will be fun
maybe people will help me

i am going to start with dpup as philb666
has suggested

corepup already does all this
but it is not puppy based

wanderer

darry19662018 · #106 Post by **darry19662018** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 19:56

It is easy enough to produce your own cut down Pup I have done so with Stretch doing the following:
1, Use buildins which thankfully now allows you to remove more than 1 app or libraries. I end up with a basic pup which browses and playback with a portable gmplayer thanks to Fredx181.

I then rebooted with a savefile once I had used buildins utility.

2. removed savefile once rebooted then used remaster program,

3. This produced a folder with new Stretch sfs and zdrive and I deleted a drive, I used the isomaster program to insert these new sfs to the iso, produced a new onebone iso and frugal installed and hey presto with a bit of work a very basic system. So If you want a basic iso and system using static apps or self contained sfs the work I did was worth it.

I will upload the iso later with download details.

wanderer · #107 Post by **wanderer** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 19:59

thanks darry

i will look into both systems for the same iso

woof-ce and remaster like you did

like i said i have the time if not the expertise
so what is there to lose

wanderer

darry19662018 · #108 Post by **darry19662018** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:02

Well mate,

Put it this way If hate pulse-audio like I do and other cruft with a bit of sweat you can have a system easy to maintain and just add what you want as puppy has the tools like listDD and check dependcies of a pkg to help you thats pretty awesome.

oui · #109 Post by **oui** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:11

wanderer wrote: with only one repository selected
no choices need to be made at first

the thing with the dedicated source of binaries (*1 is following:

- Debian would be the best one without limit but today making heavy politic manipulation of the events... And the difficulty to decide if stable or testing or full SID (= diffferent visions of that what a little copy has to be...)

- the Slackware world is searching a new balance and is not really an example of good organization. To extend your working field is sometimes very difficult for end users!

- RedHat and all friends (Suse etc.) seems to be closed for us (as also we are not really a best example of good organization!)

- LFS seems to be difficult (NuTyx publishes all binaries (*2 of LFS and BLFS but it is an one man show for each part! The base made by Thierry Nuttens, the Swiss creator, and each one for the other parts esp. Pierre for the heavy KDE, bothe are the base of the best NuTyx...)

- Arch and gentoo are rollings. Rollings are possible but require to make somewhere a complete copy not being rolling itself and this fact has to be clear for all... They are probably with SID the most open Linux ressources and not so manipulated by some Debian gurus as SID/testing itself!

- Ubuntu, sorry, that is "my" last one really and terrible dangerous as to often contributors did use time limited versions under maximal development energy not being reproduced after that with some next LTS, but not extensible any more out the short time Ubuntu depositories...

(*1 as the sources of the clone of Android for PC are all published as well for 32 as for 64 bit, it would be in the theory possible to rebuild Puppy completely based on the Android clone

, but was never matter of discussion in our community!

(*2 and full sources and build receipts! This is probably the only one distro encouraging to build from sources as LFS is stuff from sources. The first one, Debian, is only theory: How has really rebuild his system and translate it for ex. to an other CPU using aptbuild? I suppose no one in the Puppy community (Iguleder (*3 perhaps? I assume he continues to look from time to time here!). In the past did Slackware always offer all source but also did discourage to build with them!!! I don't know any more what the status about this details is in Slackware. Divers things seem to be erased like the second serie for IBM/MS-dos environment etc. ...

(*3 contributor Iguleder did be the last one I know declaring to compile (yes, in assembler sources) his Puppy's himself! Or are since this time new ones known (this is important! Compile themself is an extreme time occupation. This is only realistic possible if you use scripts and that is the kik: such scripts well working and good written can be precious for a community to recover contact with full rational compiled Puppy's as BK did made himself in the past...

.

wanderer · #110 Post by **wanderer** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:16

yes darry i will try to learn your system

its like the old puppy but better

and maybe it will lead me to have the knowledge to make a minimal woof-ce

yes oui debian strech looks like the best candidate

wanderer

darry19662018 · #111 Post by **darry19662018** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:21

By the way as a side-note to what Oui was talking about which just about made me fall off my chair and why Devuan makes a good base. The maintainer of systemd is taking a break - poor chap,
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2606

oui · #112 Post by **oui** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:25

oh, really sorry for him... Devuan is a really lovely environment made with a lot of energy by a little staff!

wanderer · #113 Post by **wanderer** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:28

darry

your system is based on debian strech right

wanderer

darry19662018 · #114 Post by **darry19662018** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:32

Yes it is the Debian Stretch 7.5 release from peebee
to be exact original iso.
http://smokey01.com/radky/Woof/stretch- ... .9.149.iso

the above is the legacy hardware one.

wanderer · #115 Post by **wanderer** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:38

thanks so much darry

cool so that is where to start

whenever you have time put a link to your iso

and i will download it and burn it

then i will read your stuff

wanderer

wanderer · #116 Post by **wanderer** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:41

i dont want to get ahead of myself

but maybe in the future we can look at devuan

i hate systemd

wanderer

wanderer · #117 Post by **wanderer** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:47

if its ok

i am going to leave this topic on this thread
since we are trying to find a solution to the woof woof-ce issue

anyone can post anything else they want so i dont think we will be in the way

wanderer

darry19662018 · #118 Post by **darry19662018** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:49

wanderer wrote:i dont want to get ahead of myself

but maybe in the future we can look at devuan

i hate systemd

wanderer

Agreed, I have used Devuan based stuff and Miyo-linux based off it and I am very impressed with their work. As I have stated too I love using Musher's puduan 6 - so yeah Devuan is pretty cool.

wanderer · #119 Post by **wanderer** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:59

i see this as having 3 stages

1. absolute minimal iso - as small as can be and still be extensible

2. basic system iso - like what a newbee would want - small but functional

3. beautiful system whatever you want

i (and hopefully others) will work on 1 and 2
whoever wants to can work on 3

wanderer

oui · #120 Post by **oui** » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 21:07

wanderer wrote:i see this as having 3 stages

1. absolute minimal iso - as small as can be and still be extensible

2. basic system iso - like what a newbee would want - small but functional

3. beautiful system whatever you want

i (and hopefully others) will work on 1 and 2
whoever wants to can work on 3

wanderer

Puppy self compiled and assembled by BK was always that!

JWM is a wonderful desk environment and so versatile and tiny especially if you continue to use, does Puppy, /etc/X11/xorg.config (without some terrible automatic resets!!! Pfui......). Other ones may be beautiful but fat terribly Puppy and requires new manipulations from newbies! Why not a really common way for all using for the other desktop environment dotsfs packages? RHS did made possible to start those dotfs packages immediately at starting time through some cfg file for the initrd!

note: I did extend my msg http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 62#1022962 to avoid some search but I didn't introduce Devuan because the fact that not all stuff are ported or can be ported from Debian, sorry, it is so

. It would need that the Debian stuff can be used without some changes after installing a Devuan base but it is NOT the case... No automatic strip of systemd in sight!

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Puppy's big problem with woof and woof CE

"Fleshing-Out" a Puppy is Dev's responsibility, Not Woof's