Puppy's Website: Discussion

Message

klu9 · #101 Post by **klu9** » Fri 21 Mar 2008, 00:34

another vote for a single unified CMS.

klu9 · #102 Post by **klu9** » Fri 21 Mar 2008, 00:58

hmm... just tried Tom's link for testing out the TinyMCE wiki editor

the text formatting worked fine in the editing window (Headings, font changes, indents etc)
but no formatting applied in the Preview
and no formatting applied in the final result

weird

mcewanw · #103 Post by **mcewanw** » Fri 21 Mar 2008, 01:35

raffy · #104 Post by **raffy** » Fri 21 Mar 2008, 02:24

Some notes to add:

1. Simple vs Complex - a unified CMS is fine, except that it demands a high level of maintenance work (This is especially true for Drupal, which requires many add-ons for additional functionalities such as (but not limited to) image uploading and wiki). If the maintainer later leaves for some reason, then the site would become stale. This has happened already when Puppian suddenly withdrew support from the puppylinux.org site and the Fusion CMS that he built with many added "infusions" (packages).

Thus, if we go Drupal, then there has to be at least three committed maintainers who know the ins and outs of the modules, to make sure that there will always be maintainer/s of the site.

On the other end, there is a simple out-of-the-box solution like the wiki (wikkawiki, dokuwiki) which anyone having FTP access can install and maintain.

2. Pointing the DNS of puppylinux.org - Barry will point the DNS to whichever site he chooses. In doing so, one criterion that he is likely to follow is "Don't put many eggs in one basket", meaning, that if one site already offers popular services for Puppy, then it would be better to go for another. In this light, Eric's puppylinux.ca already does a high level of support as a downloads site for Puppy.

This latter consideration (puppylinux.ca being a downloads site) raises the possibility that content from the wiki can be imported into puppylinux.ca and published as a manual - Eric has already acknowledged this idea above, in his most recent post. I find this idea worthwhile.

3. Netfirms as host - The dokuwiki installation I have is with netfirms.com (a free hosting benefit from a few small sites that I maintain), and I guess puppylinux.ca is also a netfirms.com site. I wonder if the sites can support clean URL (using Apache's mod_rewrite), an essential feature of Drupal. I will retry tests about this, but I recall that I was unable to use that feature in the past with my netfirms.com sites. If both sites (mine and Eric's) can't support clean URL, then we may have to look somewhere else for hosting, to exploit the clean URL feature of whatever CMS/wiki that we use. In this light, note that wikkawiki is able to use clean URL at servage.net.

4. Servage as host - we're reluctantly leaving servage.net because of undesirable server features* and unreliable support/security issues**. We're "reluctant", as puppylinux.org enjoys at least 5 years of free hosting accumulated from referrals. In this light, the wikkawiki has performed remarkably well despite all the other troubles with servage. If we add a new category, like "Manual" to wikka, will this satisfy our documentation thrust? And since wikka can also use HTML code, can't we use this feature to certain front-end parts of wikka?

-----------------------
* Specifically, dokuwiki can't run out of the box in servage.net, but this would not matter if wikkawiki is kept instead.

** A Fusion CMS feature that leaves certain directories open for writing must have aggravated the security situation.

raffy · #105 Post by **raffy** » Fri 21 Mar 2008, 02:39

Just saw your post, McEwan. My immediate reaction: ha ha ha! But, yes, your perspective is unconventional.

We have followed a principle of "earn your stripes" in matters concerning the Puppy Linux project. If some people here tend to speak with authority, it is because they know the developments and try their best to inform others and offer courses of action so a decision can be made given reasonable time.

As to the seeming rush of some recent posts, there was originally an Easter deadline for a new Puppy website. But that is not pressing for now as Oli made room for things to be wrapped up first.
----------------------

EDIT: Additional re Drupal - Drupal can be installed at servage.net (the current puppylinux.org site). I will free up a database and create an FTP account for this. We need volunteers who are able to tinker with PHP code to help install and maintain Drupal. I guess learning Drupal will be consistent in ensuring an integrated web presence of Puppy Linux in the future. I will PM Tom the details.

tombh · #106 Post by **tombh** » Fri 21 Mar 2008, 09:43

@mcewanw: Doh! You got the wrong thread. I'm sure you appreciate that posting that post in this thread gives it a very different meaning -- a meaning I'm sure wasn't intended. You of course raise many relevant and valid points, but in the context of this thread the comment

piggy god in the middle

is utterly inappropriate and unquestionably unacceptable.

mcewanw · #107 Post by **mcewanw** » Fri 21 Mar 2008, 11:16

WhoDo · #108 Post by **WhoDo** » Fri 21 Mar 2008, 11:50

raffy wrote:Additional re Drupal - Drupal can be installed at servage.net (the current puppylinux.org site). I will free up a database and create an FTP account for this. We need volunteers who are able to tinker with PHP code to help install and maintain Drupal. I guess learning Drupal will be consistent in ensuring an integrated web presence of Puppy Linux in the future. I will PM Tom the details.

Good news, raffy. I was under the impression that servage.net didn't have the right software support, but if it does it would make the whole issue of cutting across to the new presence so much quicker and easier when it is time.

I share your concerns about the long-term maintenance of the site. Puppian was doing a great job, but for continuity we needed at least two more maintainers, as you say. Although tombh assures me of his intention to stick with the web site, and although I have no doubt he means it, it would still be prudent to have at least 2 others supporting him. prit1 is involved in the development at present, so we really need one more supporter with a decent grounding in PHP. I wish I could offer my support there, too, but I've forgotten more about PHP than I originally learned!

As far as Simple vs. Complex, I'm well in agreement with you there too. Just because there are literally "thousands" of modules for that CMS doesn't mean we need to use them. I'd favour sticking with the basics - content management, security, wiki, image/upload management, version control and not much else. I'm pretty sure tombh is thinking along the same lines.

Another benefit of sticking with servage.net is that wakkawiki data won't have to leave the site or be imported into the tables of the new CMS database. That should also be of some benefit, as you say. It would allow a fairly close integration with Drupal, so we can take our time moving wiki sections to the new platform, and do so behind the scenes without disruption to normal user access.

There is some merit in having oli's manuals elsewhere, say puppylinux.ca, but I'm not sure that would outweigh the benefit of the tighter security over manual editing that Drupal can offer. We'll see how the various tests pan out for oli and his team. Certainly wakkawiki's ability to support HTML should make some integration tasks easier for tombh.

It seems as though things are starting to fall into place at the right time for us. After a number of years of wishing for a new web presence for Puppy, it looks as though that might be about to happen at last. Thanks to all who are contributing to that, even if only by suggestions and expressions of support. It's all good, as they say.

Lobster · #109 Post by **Lobster** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 00:07

Dario Taraborelli
to me

show details
07:22
Hello Ed,

I'm writing to let you know that WikkaWiki just released its 1.1.6.4
upgrade [1]. I see the PuppyLinux wiki still runs on 1.1.6.0 and I
would strongly recommend to upgrade - upgrading only takes a few
minutes via the web wizard and will give you all the improved
stability and new features of the latest release!

Best wishes,

Dario

[1] http://docs.wikkawiki.org/WhatsNew1164

and get this guy on board (see comment section)
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Reorganisat ... iStructure

Rhino · #110 Post by **Rhino** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 00:12

I really like the idea of a simplified web presence and the proto-puppy page looks very nice and more in line with what some other distributions are doing.

I have contributed to this sprawling mass of a web presence that is Puppylinux by hosting rhinoweb.us which has the puppy linux video tutorials. If you would like to include the video tutorials in the web site I will be glad to support the new page in whatever way possible. If they are not needed that is fine too. Some of them are quite outdated.

I really think this web consolidation is a much needed project. The enthusiasm for puppy is remarkable and there is some great information out there, it just all needs to put together neatly in one place.

Keep up the great work!

Rhino

Lobster · #111 Post by **Lobster** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 00:29

Some of them are quite outdated.

Hi Rhino

A lot of them are (unless using early Puppys) out of date
They were (and still are) a brilliant introduction
highly recommmended

If anyone is interested in updates or new ones this would be great
Did you get Wink working on later Pups - recommend something else?

this page has a direct link to Wink (bit scary for new users)
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/AdditionalPrograms

wink
http://www.debugmode.com/wink/

WhoDo · #112 Post by **WhoDo** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 01:31

Rhino wrote:If you would like to include the video tutorials in the web site I will be glad to support the new page in whatever way possible. If they are not needed that is fine too. Some of them are quite outdated.

Hey, Rhino, great to have you on board. The video tutorials you are hosting were very high on our "must keep" list, so having you involved is a big plus for us. For any tutorials that are either outdated or refer to versions no longer in use, I'd like to see us get some help to maybe bring them up to date, or even create a few new ones, as Lobster says. Nevertheless, anything you want to offer as your contribution will be very much appreciated, including managing that part of our web presence.

Thanks again, mate.

raffy · #113 Post by **raffy** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 01:59

I've done some tests and only Drupal version 5.7 works out of the box in servage.net. The problem is in MySQL version being used: 4.1.1 is required but only 4.0.26 is running at servage.

The wiki feature of Drupal 5.7 will be very limited, as all new wiki features are implemented in version 6+.

Lobster has referred to a recent volunteer for updating the wikkawiki structure, and we can try his help (kindly check on it, Lobster, as he has left no email address). Next I will update the wikka version - will let you know when the version update is complete.

Lobster · #114 Post by **Lobster** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 02:28

on it raffy

have tried the new wakka wiki
http://docs.wikkawiki.org/UpgradeNotes

seems easy, am using MySQL5 at tmxxine
but screwed up the tmxxine site

http://tmxxine.com/wik

Query failed: SELECT * FROM wikka_sessions WHERE
sessionid='c4199a32c0c076a151b0e0cdc44a6045' AND userid='CrustyLobster' (Table 'lobster1.wikka_sessions' doesn't exist)

have written to the wakka developers

Update: well with the wikka developers help
I was able to upgrade from the beta to the full 1.6.4 wikki at tmxxine
(using an SQL5 database and Servage)

If we upgrade to the new software then the image links will have to be updated - something I warned months ago

from just the image link to something like

Code: Select all

{{image url="http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/289/pupeeelogobk5.jpg" title="PupEEE" alt="pupEEE"}}

this already works in the existing software version

Rhino · #115 Post by **Rhino** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 03:23

Hey, Rhino, great to have you on board. For any tutorials that are either outdated or refer to versions no longer in use, I'd like to see us get some help to maybe bring them up to date, or even create a few new ones, as Lobster says. Nevertheless, anything you want to offer as your contribution will be very much appreciated, including managing that part of our web presence.

I'm glad to be of any help to the project. Just let me know what you want or need.

Thanks,

Rhino

WhoDo · #116 Post by **WhoDo** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 09:38

raffy wrote:I've done some tests and only Drupal version 5.7 works out of the box in servage.net. The problem is in MySQL version being used: 4.1.1 is required but only 4.0.26 is running at servage.

The wiki feature of Drupal 5.7 will be very limited, as all new wiki features are implemented in version 6+.

Well, that only presents a short-term problem (if any). We can get the new presence running under 5.7, linked to the updated wikkawiki, and then when 6+ becomes feasible - i.e when the hosting service updates MySQL - then, if we still want to integrate the wiki, we can start migrating over to Drupal for wiki as well. That gives us plenty of time to get the rest of the presence in place before trying to migrate any data. The only issue then becomes oli's manuals. If he decides he prefers them to be working under dokuwiki, it's only a matter of linking there as well, and we can still restrict access to editing under dokuwiki simply by not making it available except to admins like oli.

My only question is over the security aspect of Drupal 5.7, since it is a full major point version lower. What would we lose in control over hacking, etc? Also, how amenable would servage.net be to upgrading their version of MySQL?

The important thing is that we have a plan of action, and the resources to carry it out. I can't wait until either 3.09CE or Dingo hits Distrowatch and they come across the new web presence at the same time! Phwoaawwrrr!

tombh · #117 Post by **tombh** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 10:07

@Oli: Sorry to keep going on about this but I'm still not sure whether you understand the reasoning behind using Drupal. I know that Drupal would not be the ideal solution for you, but if you are at all willing to, then it would make integrating the manual into the website at lot easier. However, if you really feel that it has to be Dokuwiki, then there are ways of integrating it, though this wouldn't be ideal from a web development perspective. It would really help me to know that you have sincerely based your decision on this information.

@WhoDo, raffy: As you know I thought mcewan's deleted post was not appropriate for this thread, however, I nevertheless feel that he raised some valid issues that I for one am unable to ignore. This fact compounded by the growing list of Servage's shortcomings means that I am no longer willing to use either Servage or Caneri's server for this project. Whether mcewan's sentiments regarding the politics involved in this project are right or not (I am not saying that these need to be discussed) a new server will perfectly compliment the sentiments of a "new beginning" that have been frequently expressed.

My recommendation is that, unless Puppy or Barry have the funds for this, those interested in the future of a Puppy website contribute equally to the modest overheads. I shall be considered as one who is able to offer a modest contribution.

I can't wait until either 3.09CE or Dingo hits Distrowatch and they come across the new web presence at the same time! Phwoaawwrrr!

WhoDo · #118 Post by **WhoDo** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 10:34

tombh wrote:@WhoDo, raffy: As you know I thought mcewan's deleted post was not appropriate for this thread, however, I nevertheless feel that he raised some valid issues that I for one am unable to ignore. This fact compounded by the growing list of Servage's shortcomings means that I am no longer willing to use either Servage or Caneri's server for this project. Whether mcewan's sentiments regarding the politics involved in this project are right or not (I am not saying that these need to be discussed) a new server will perfectly compliment the sentiments of a "new beginning" that have been frequently expressed.

I didn't see mcewanw's post, as its content had been deleted before I next visited the thread. Without commenting on anything else, appropriate or otherwise, I honestly don't know what his concerns were.

As for politics, that is often in the eye of the beholder. There certainly are those here who jealously guard Puppy's reputation and philosophical ethos. I have been one of those for a very long time, but nowhere near as long as raffy or Lobster for example. Barry is about as apolitical as anyone can be, IMHO, and the rest of us just want to keep Puppy and the Puppy community as positive and inclusive an experience as possible.

[tangent switch=on]
Sure, we all have different ideas about some things. Sure, we sometimes disagree intensely on some issues. That said, we all really love Puppy and want others to know the good things that Puppy and the Puppy community can do for them.

We have had disenchanted members leave us before, not that this is anything like what you are suggesting, Tom. That's often been because they can't come to terms with Puppy, the fun experiment. They want to make it into something it's not; like a mainstream distro with all the bells and whistles, CVS repositories, bug trackers, etc. That's just not part of the Puppy ethos. No hard feelings, but if that's what people want they won't find it here. Fork the distro and develop your own is another alternative, followed by Grafpup for starters. Nathan Fisher did it the correct way, and remains a great friend of Puppy, but is seldom active in the community these days. He has enough to do looking after Grafpup.
[tangent switch=off]

Now, Tom, back to what you were saying. What legitimate concerns did mcewanw express? What is wrong with servage.net and netfirms.net from your developer's perspective? How do we deal with your concerns without you losing impetus in your development of the new Puppy presence? I certainly don't want you distracted by anything you perceive as politics or dithering. We're off to a positive start and for Puppy and the community's sake, I'd like to see us continue in that vein. My great big ears are WIDE open, mate!

tombh · #119 Post by **tombh** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 12:23

@WhoDo: Thanks for your thoughtful reply

[...]* It would be wrong of me to make any more comment than that I'm afraid.

As you know, I have always been keen to express the importance that the relations between the creators of a website play in the ultimate ability of that website to fulfil its roll of clear, accessible and transparent communication. Although I cannot put my finger on it exactly, the build up of many forms of poor communication, whether it be reactionary, unclear or just the plain lack of it, have left me adrift and in such a state that the thought of contributing to the website strikes me as an awful chore! I really don't want to blame anyone here, as you say, politics is often in the eye of the beholder.

From my developers point of you I base my decision on Servage purely on the feedback that Barry received when his blog was compromised -- I don't need to hear anymore than those emails he received. Servage's customer service is unexcusable, I think it was forum member prehistoric that said something like, "Servage is staffed by robots". As for the growing list of shortcomings they are ticking up they come as no surprise being the symptons of the very same incompetence that made the decision to treat customers as lower life forms. Puppy may be made by a group of part-time enthusiasts but even a handful of part-time enthusiasts could run Servage better than it is now.

As with Netfirms, I'm sure they're fine (and Eric's a good friend of mine), but it would just seem simpler if we had another server, as, amongst other things, Barry said it'd be good to avoid too many eggs in one basket.

A third server just seems like the perfect opportunity, not least for being a fresh start to mark this new era, but we can also choose a host before hand that has everything we need.

It wasn't a chore talking to you though WhoDo!

--------------------------------------------------
*Comment amended 24th March

oli · #120 Post by **oli** » Sat 22 Mar 2008, 13:12

@tombh: I understand you and your point of view of development and adminsitration a website. I would choose dokuwiki (for a stand alone website). But if you want to build the website with Drupal I will accept your choice and will use Drupal for the manual too. So I would ask you to send me a PM as soon as your website is ready to start with the manual.

But I would like to have some commitments of other maintainers to work on the new website too and to add content (who are the maintainers and what part/function do they have?). Because I don't want to waste time with the manual in case the new website has no durable success. (I hope you can understand me.)

(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Puppy's Website: Discussion

my notes so far

ha ha

Update on Drupal - only version 5.7 is usable at servage.net

Re: Update on Drupal - only version 5.7 is usable at servage