mavrothal wrote:gcmartin wrote:
Are we at a maturity-level of PLDF to step-out in investing in such an effort?
gcmartin,
This is not how it works.
Is not for you, me and the "treasurer" (kudos
) to tell/advise TaZoC, 01Micko, JamesBond etc what and how.
Nobody is going to build
our pupplet!
Try this instead (with this order).
1) Build what you can.
2) Tell (concept) what you want to build, show (code) how you go about it and where you are at (prototype).
3) Ask for help where you can not do it yourself (for whatever reason)
4) Ask for alternative technical suggestions/improvements/impementations
5) Invite (usually privately) people that contribute to join
6) If things start moving to the direction you want and can not be accommodated by the current structures, try to make it an "organization" (ie website, wiki, bug-tracker, IRC channel, mailing list and eventually forum).
PS: make sure you have a lot of time and some disposable income.
gcmartin wrote:Don't take this wrongly, but, I think that approach is not a very good one. And because I say this doesn't mean that your comments are not of value. They are...
I see what you are suggesting, but, this is what is already done in Puppyland and there are many examples of this.
What you offer is similar to what has been going on.
I am suggesting true collaboration. This starts with a definition. One way of looking at a definition is to look at a starting point of what the developers I suggest already have done, understand, and are clear on. As a team we dont "tell" them what to do...instead we work with them working from a documented design point and working in such a way where everyone contributes what they can to the whole.
Its not just a slapping of packs together or just using a particular repo. Its about looking at what is to be achieved, the audience intended, and using the creativity of the forum, collaborating (at least willing to) for addressing objective.
I'm not trying to talk over someone's heads, here. And, I am not trying to suggest that because one does/doesn't write code he shouldn't be discussing a collaboration project either.
We talking about finding a methodology to work together and giving an honest try at finding approaches for useful work which could become generally available and have enough meat on the bones that everyone can "ride the dog". Much of the prior efforts were done using old approaches and old methodologies. With the open-sources tools and free collaboration tools, this community can achieve working as a team for common useful good.
It will take a willingness to want to work together.
P.S. How did anyone get the idea that "I" (as in eye) suggesting telling a project leader what to do? Is this a funny that I am missing or was someone trying to make a genuine comment?
AND, thanks @Jpeps for your offer of Treasurer and your opening monetary contribution to go toward a paid site. But, I think that as an Open source project team, we MAY be able to get collaboration site areas for free, if, of course, we carry this forward.
I think there is one point that has been completely absent from the talks here. I think everyone is for
collaboration here. However the hard truth is that I would venture that 75% of the people here are unable to truly collaborate. This has nothing to do with personality or antyhing of the sort. It comes down to a simple issue of who has the technical ability to actually offer something. There has been talking amonst the Lighhouse Devs of trying to set something up so we can work together, but after talking about it something rather simple came up. In our world of puppylinux, there really isnt much '
code collaboration' that can take place. We arent working together on code projects that often. The one that did seem to come to mine was the SFS-load-on-the-fly program where a bunch of devs pitched in. But even without GIT or FOSSIL or other coding tools everyone managed to make it work smoothly. In most puppies there really isnt much actually code editing by multiple people. You dont need to be a coder to build a puppy. You can just be knowledgeable in linux and you can take slacko or presice, strip what you dont want out, add in what you want; and presto you have a new version.
And from what I see with most puppy projects thats what happens. One person puts something together, and users ask for apps, etc. Other devs pitch in and help by packing up apps and doing that. But most of the time users are just installing and using. Sure they report back when something doesnt work properly, but thats not exactly collaboration. When the majority is simply clicking to install and then going away to do their own thing... can there be much collaboration? In puppy land because of its fractured nature of development (which I believe is a strength); there are too many different methodologies for all the devs to collab on a single project. For myself, I do things a certain way because I'm trying to learn something that way. I've been working with JamesBond on a project, and as much as I'd like to help more... he's just so much more skilled than me at designing a puppy from the ground up that most of the work has been on him and not on me. Of course we worked out something privately so we are both happy... but the fact is that even amongst people who do develop here... its still going to be imbalanced.
So of what good is GIT or FOSSIL going to be?
What we seem to have every so often is someone steping up saying that 'the people' need more of an input. And its disguised in a way about choice and power being given to the people and not in the devs hands. Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news here... but reality is the people need the devs to build the stuff since they lack the skill themselves. Users cant really collaborate with devs on a puppy version, because they have nothing to offer. So what we'd have is a dev taking orders from dozens of people about how something should be done. And yes I used the word 'orders' on purpose... If the dev is just doing what other people want with no care for his own thoughts... then he/she isnt taking suggestions, they are taking orders.
So coming back to the 'collaboration' issue... how can people with no skill collaborate with people that have the skill? In the corperate world, you will see no coders working to design and lead a coding team. And the coders have no problem with that because they are getting paid. When they leave work, come home to work on their own projects and wishes... they dont want to again be told what to do in their own free time which is supposed to be for their enjoyment.
So when you have an unbalanced field, how can everyone work together equally? As was brought up in the past... the whole crapola about a 'symbiotic relationship'. A relationship that is symbiotic in any venture requires equal give and take from all members. So in the issue of a community collaboration, what can the users or non coders offer the coders that is equal to what the coders are giving everyone else with their time and skill.
GCmartin you say that people should 'work
with' developers... what does that mean to you? Using you and me as an example: if you tell me what to do and then I go do it... that not
you working with me. thats
me working for you. So what can you do to
work with me; if Im the one doing all the coding work, and you are just sitting at home saying what you want done.
(I used us as an example so that the pronouns didnt get confusing)
I'm not all doom and gloom though about this idea... If someone wants to make a run at this, I'll gladly donate server space on one of my servers for them to set up the site and run it. While I dont think it'll work... I"ll gladly offer the server up for someone to try.