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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
Languages in the world
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Pelo


Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Posts: 11897
Location: Mer méditerrannée (1 kms°)

PostPosted: Thu 07 Apr 2016, 22:56    Post subject: I was surprised to discover many Puppies undknown here.  

language is as real problem for Puppy's activities.
I really have a good level in english because 30 years of real practice at work...
But ... but.. Most of people don't practice english, excepted songs or games.
And (Here i am not joking) it's very hard exercice..
Translation english french well it's the easier
Understanding the linux subject
Think about answer
Translate it to english.. (generally fast food, you are not at school, you trust your colleagues to guess what you are meaning)
That explains why there are forums and Facebook sites growing outside here. I was surprised to discover many Puppies unknown here. (sourceforge.net)
Forums very active are south america, and russian. Some versions of Puppies (jessie) or archlinux (russian) are in advanced (prototype) but run.

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Antipodal

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 222
Location: The other side of the world

PostPosted: Mon 11 Apr 2016, 01:37    Post subject:  Re: I was surprised to discover many Puppies undknown here.
Subject description: I believe that what I've writen is called "brain storming"
 

Pelo wrote:
language is as real problem for Puppy's activities.
I'm almost sure that "Je suis absolument d'acord avec ça" means "I absolutely agree with that".

That is why several years ago, when I thought that world wide promotion of Puppy was a priority, in one of my first posts I proposed adding non-English language subforums in the "Beginners Help (Start Here)" forum to the ones that already existed in the "Users (For the regulars)" forum at that time.

My proposal was never carried out.
I'm not sure of what were the reasons.

Over the time I have discovered that some technical forums have threads that help people with difficulties with the official language.

I have thought that perhaps we should copy them here, in this Puppy forum, because that would not require changes in the forum's format nor would it increase the forum's staff work and there are chances it would help in reducing some of the problems that have been described in this thread.

It could even be carried out easily in the "Pour les francophones", "Für deutschsprachige Anhänger" and the "Usuarios de habla Hispana" subforums of the "Users (For the regulars)" forum
In each, (French, German and Spanish speaking) users could help other users with difficulties in the official language of each subforum.

Just thinking aloud. Smile

Antipodal.
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6502coder


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 364
Location: Western United States

PostPosted: Mon 11 Apr 2016, 03:06    Post subject: Re: I was surprised to discover many Puppies undknown here.
Subject description: I believe that what I've writen is called "brain storming"
 

Antipodal wrote:
My proposal was never carried out.
I'm not sure of what were the reasons.

I can think of a number of obstacles.

1. Forum participation is all voluntary, so you get what you get.

2. An accurate translation requires someone who is fluent in both languages PLUS knows the subject matter in question. Not many people are going to meet all three requirements.

3. Computer technologies are particularly difficult subjects because many terms have very precise meanings, and often different precise meanings in different contexts, so that it is very easy to be misunderstood, even in conversations between two subject matter experts speaking in a common native tongue.

And as any regular visitor to this forum knows, the problem is compounded by beginners who often misuse certain terms (because they don't KNOW they're misusing them), which results a lot of confused back-and-forth before their questions are even understood, much less answered.

For all these reasons, someone who is (say) a native English speaker and an expert on bash, with a working (but not fluent) knowledge of French, might well hesitate to offer help in French for fear of producing inaccurate translations (in both directions) that only make things worse.

The only practical solution I think is for non-English-speaking subject matter experts to write the tutorials for beginners in their own language, or to do the translations of tutorials from English or whatever into their own language.
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 2839
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Mon 11 Apr 2016, 07:41    Post subject:  

I agree with that.
I can read a little French and German and can usually understand the question asked in those languages, but I would certainly not be able to reply accurately in them.

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Pelo


Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Posts: 11897
Location: Mer méditerrannée (1 kms°)

PostPosted: Mon 11 Apr 2016, 17:46    Post subject: we have the philosophy of help between users
Subject description: But a newbie helipin another newbie does not go very far.
 

"2. An accurate translation requires someone who is fluent in both languages PLUS knows the subject matter in question. Not many people are going to meet all three requirements. "
Yes sure, people cannot describe the problems to solve in a fluent english, so they create forums outside here. Puppy is sucessfull in eastern Europe, many applications for Puppy are born there (Click 'about' to see who is the creator)
The harder is certainly for the german newbie to explain in english what is not working with his little Linux.
About help between users from same countries, we have the philosophy of help. But often the answer is known only by the puppy-buider, who has to keep informed what questions are asked about its Puppy. Now spanish Puppy builders have they own forum, they post here to promote, but receive complains in their specific forum... Or Facebook... Russian have issued a Puppy based on archlinux, they are back here. That is good for the Innovation. Wait and see.
And i should say a Puppy which is not british is completely ignored here... Pupppy is australian. It's not choking that the pedigree is a criteria... But England has lost the mundial of rugby in England, damned (The winner was not Italia Smile ouf)

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Antipodal

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 222
Location: The other side of the world

PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr 2016, 20:15    Post subject: Languages in the world  

Last Monday 6502coder listed a number of obstacles that explain why many of us agree with what pelo said last Thursday
Pelo wrote:
language is as real problem for Puppy's activities.
I believe 6502coder's words are quite reasonable and I would like to thank him for helping me to remember those obstacles.
I would also like to thank, Burn_IT and the other contributors to the thread for their point of view and convey special thanks to pelo because his original post pushed forward a subject that underlies most of the great problems humanity is currently facing and in which which we should all focus.
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6502coder


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 364
Location: Western United States

PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr 2016, 01:52    Post subject:  

Well, I hope I have been realistic and not merely pessimistic. Achieving fluency in a foreign language is hard -- I have studied three and can't read an ordinary newspaper in any of them. On the other hand, I find a resource like the forums at WordReference.com to be invaluable for getting help on translation problems. It doesn't always work -- the other day I ran across a thread asking for help translating a passage dealing with architecture: it got no responses because apparently there just weren't any English-speaking forum members who had enough expertise in architecture to make heads or tails of the specialized jargon being used.

But maybe something like a list of commonly-used terms in Puppy Linux, with definitions in various languages contributed by forum members, would be a good place to make a start.
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Pelo


Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Posts: 11897
Location: Mer méditerrannée (1 kms°)

PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr 2016, 08:03    Post subject: 'the ambassadors'  

Thanks to everybody about that visit to communication between people not speaking the same language. French, Spanish, and Russian are not so much concerned because somebody knowing both English and Linux languages translates.Call them 'the ambassadors' in specific forums.
I read in 'simplicity' site they are three persons, one does not even have a computer. He is the tester. I completely agree with that choice. Puppy must be easy to understand.
Subliminal message : be kind with us please... Imagine if all was in Chinese, even the terminal.. Smile

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kb8amz

Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 42
Location: Kent, Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2016, 06:40    Post subject:  

English [US] is my spoken language but Morse Code is the language I speak Internationally in my hobby. Wink
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Antipodal

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 222
Location: The other side of the world

PostPosted: Wed 27 Apr 2016, 22:41    Post subject: Languages in the world
Subject description: Supporting one of 6502coder's ideas
 

6502coder wrote:
But maybe something like a list of commonly-used terms in Puppy Linux, with definitions in various languages contributed by forum members, would be a good place to make a start.
I support all the ideas that contribute to a better understanding among human beings.
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Pelo


Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Posts: 11897
Location: Mer méditerrannée (1 kms°)

PostPosted: Wed 11 May 2016, 05:52    Post subject: level) But english to (french) are awful ! french or else  

When trying to translate often dictionaries translations to english are quite good ( but you can judge the quality only if yourself has a good level)
But english to (french) are awful !
For non speaking english people, using Puppy not translated is quite impossible. As said above, when you got a Linux word each ten words, newbies will loose tenacity.
For Help, i will give here links to european forums about Puppy, for newbies needing some help.
Russia, Polski, Hungary, italy have one.
French, spanish and germans have a section in the Murga forum, they are Lucky, and when a developer is here too help, c'est du pur bonheur !

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 6730
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Mon 16 May 2016, 10:43    Post subject:  

Language; a defining period of pre to post mankind? (I, personally, am not so sure that it can be called a "defining moment" as all organism have some sort of "language".)

Is mankind on the doorstep of yet another defining moment: See this as it describes such.

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Wognath

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 393

PostPosted: Mon 16 May 2016, 14:29    Post subject:  

This reminded me of a bitter post last year by a one-time visitor:
Quote:
Necesitamos que PUPPY sea más INTERNACIONAL, que no monopolice todo el espacio el inglés, que es el TERCER IDIOMA a nivel mundial, y sin embargo el SEGUNDO ES EL ESPAÑOL, y no sale mencionado en nigún lugar en la página principal, ni siquiera un link a "LANGUAGE" o nada así.

Es algo realmente necesario en la primera página. A gente que no es nativa inglesa nos desanima muchísimo ver que entras a una comunidad en la que todo todo todo es inglés, y no se mencionan otras lenguas en la pantalla principal ni siquiera por casualidad.
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=99938]

A prominent link on puppylinux.org main page to the "Homepage by Language" table on the wiki's home page would be hospitable.
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Pelo


Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Posts: 11897
Location: Mer méditerrannée (1 kms°)

PostPosted: Mon 16 May 2016, 22:08    Post subject: each day we translate from english  

What is some fun, or ire, is if you list a spanish or a french puplet in Puppy derivative section, the first reaction is 'we can't use it, it's not translated' !
they don't imagine a second that each day we translate from english to our native language. Spanish, turkisk, chinese are all day long translating;.
That is the reason why only high level passengers (VIP) use Puppy, when not from UK ! Or emigrated from.
Spanish Puppies have the chance to be used in south-america (Cuba excepted). French ones are not used once, in overseas french speaking countries.
That does not mean that non english spoken (barbarians) puppies to be the best Exclamation come on, come on, war is declared Twisted Evil
"Am I wrong? "Most French 1st language people also speak other languages fluently." Unlike US citizens where 92% only speak US English. Reason: Foreign language has not be a student requirement in 3 decades (primary/secondary/collegiate levels)." Gcmartin if the 8% only tried to speak the foreign language they learnt at school, it would be a nice step forward..

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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 2839
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Tue 17 May 2016, 06:56    Post subject:  

As I have said before, I am quite happy to read technical stuff in French or German and get 80% of the meaning, but any reply in those languages would probably be either meaningless or very funny.

Google translate can be useful converting to your natural language from a foreign one, when mistranslates will be obvious, but should be avoided the other way round.

What is the famous one?? "My Hovercraft is full of Eels!"

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