Full Installer to USB flash drives

Under development: PCMCIA, wireless, etc.
Message
Author
User avatar
bigpup
Posts: 13886
Joined: Sun 11 Oct 2009, 18:15
Location: S.C. USA

#31 Post by bigpup »

april,

You are installing to a USB hard drive, so may be other issues here.
I have only installed to a USB flash drive.

A full install to a USB flash drive or hard drive is not a normal way to install Puppy.
Grub4dosconfig seems to be able to handle making a working boot loader, so it is being used.

I do not know why you are having so much trouble with this.

First do not use Legacy Grub.
It is known to have problems with the newer versions of Puppy.
In fact, I do not know why people still offer that boot loader.

Grub4dosconfig should be working for you.
I have no problem getting it to make a good boot menu.
I am using Grub4dosconfig V1.9.2

A long shot is, maybe ext4 format is an issue with the Puppy you are running this in, to do the install.
Full ext4 support was not complete in earlier versions of Puppy.

Example:
Slacko 6.3.0
Installed to a USB flash drive with ext2 format.
When you run Grub4dosconfig you should see this:
Attachments
capture31819.png
Select the flash drive
Select search only within this device
(36.1 KiB) Downloaded 372 times
capture3067.png
Add rootwait in options window
(24.31 KiB) Downloaded 367 times
capture3733.png
Select OK
(11.27 KiB) Downloaded 360 times
capture4738.png
Close Grub4dosconfig or edit the menu
(27.74 KiB) Downloaded 371 times
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)

User avatar
bigpup
Posts: 13886
Joined: Sun 11 Oct 2009, 18:15
Location: S.C. USA

#32 Post by bigpup »

To make this install bootable you need to run grub4dosconfig to install a bootloader to the USB drive.
In Grub4dosconfig -choose to install to the USB drive and choose selection:
search only within this device.


I did add this but is it only useful for USB or is this misdirection??
like april tried.
I do not think so.
It is telling someone to install to the device you installed Puppy on.
Even when you install to a internal hard drive, you need to install the boot loader to it and only search that drive.

A boot loader has to be on the device you make the computer boot from.
The boot loader has to know what is on that device.

Here you are installing to a USB drive and going to tell the computer to boot from it.

PS:
I updated the first topic with your latest zip package.
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)

User avatar
bigpup
Posts: 13886
Joined: Sun 11 Oct 2009, 18:15
Location: S.C. USA

#33 Post by bigpup »

bigpup wrote:
Wonder if you could put a yes or no option at the end to start grub4dosconfig Idea

Something like start, open, or run, etc... grub4dos bootloader configure program?
Enter y for yes or n for no

If you enter y for yes.
Grub4dosconfig starts.

What do you think?


I am not to keen on it but am willing to go halfway and add parameter for
it somthing like --auto. Will you take that?
So, grub4dosconfig would auto start?
That would be even better.
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)

User avatar
bigpup
Posts: 13886
Joined: Sun 11 Oct 2009, 18:15
Location: S.C. USA

#34 Post by bigpup »

Scooby,

Using your latest installer code.

Something that may need tweaking.

When you get to this point in the install (see image below)
It looks like nothing is happening or the program has stopped working. It can take several minutes, before anything changes.
Finally you get the result info.

I am not sure what is exactly happening, at this point in the process, but maybe a place to put a progress meter or something to tell people it is still doing something. :idea:
Attachments
capture19558.png
(47.55 KiB) Downloaded 323 times
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)

starhawk
Posts: 4906
Joined: Mon 22 Nov 2010, 06:04
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

#35 Post by starhawk »

@bigpup, Scooby. I noticed that spot too, last time I used the installer.

User avatar
bigpup
Posts: 13886
Joined: Sun 11 Oct 2009, 18:15
Location: S.C. USA

#36 Post by bigpup »

I have installed only to USB flash drives.
My computer has no USB 3 ports.
No such thing, when this computer was made.

I would like to know if someone has done a full install to a USB drive that has USB 3 connection speed.
Your results?

My results are using USB 2 connections.
I have found it is usable, but it does run things slower.
I have also seen different speed results, depending on the brand of USB drive used.
All the USB flash drives say they are USB 3. They should be able to run at USB 2, but that does not seem to really indicate real world results.

I have installed to two different 8GB flash drives and a 32GB drive.
The 32GB flash drive runs the slowest.
It has two partitions .
First one has a Puppy frugal install. It runs fast and well.
Second partition has the Puppy full install. It runs slow, really slow.
Wonder if drive size has anything to do with this speed thing?
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)

starhawk
Posts: 4906
Joined: Mon 22 Nov 2010, 06:04
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

#37 Post by starhawk »

No. Flash media such as USB flash drives and SD cards are what are called "unmanaged" media. The controllers in those do not have the sophisticated wear-leveling (etc) algorithms that an SSD has.

Remember that an OS, also, has far more read/write cycles to disk than a flash drive or SD card would otherwise experience. Transferring a few gigs of pictures is relatively easy for such media, as that's what they're designed for. An operating system... that's a whole different kind of heavy lifting.

You are experiencing the results of that.

This is what I would call a "known bad" configuration. It will eventually kill the flash drive. At the very least, the drive will develop 'bad spots' where writing to certain places will give it problems, or later reads will give a corrupt file, because that cell will no longer 'hold' the contents it's supposed to.

I needed this script for one purpose and one purpose only. I have a strange-relative-to-ordinary-PCs system, one kind of what's called a "thin client" (basically, a computer designed to remote-desktop into a far-away server session upon which the real work is done). I want to use that client --and several others-- for a project; however, in the process of testing them, I discovered that the graphics driver intended to run on that hardware had a problem that broke it for the very unusual chipset in this client.

As a result, I opened a bug report on the tracker for the driver. That bug report now has in excess of three hundred comments on it, and the driver has been almost entirely rewritten as a result of somewhat lackluster enthusiasm on the devs' part with respect to the code itself, and assistance from an extremely helpful newcomer to the project, a man named Kevin Brace who is primarily a hardware dude but saw that he could help me out and did so, to considerable effect.

However -- in order to report back to him why what didn't work, didn't work, I needed to be able to retrieve logs from Puppy sessions where the system hung and had to be hard-rebooted (i.e. with the power switch). That meant a full install, and the easiest way to do that was with an SD card in an IDE adapter, as I had those, and the "real" drives that I have either wouldn't operate in the system (its IDE header has insufficient power to it, to spin up a standard notebook platter drive), or were already on Death's doorstep. There was also the matter that the system I had originally in place for that -- wherein I could plug in a drive, boot from USB, and do a standard full install, then transfer the drive back -- developed a problem where it would no longer properly access its internal IDE header, similar to what's going on with this client now.

Since then I've had problem after problem with the client. It hasn't been working with the driver, even though, by all reports from Kevin and others, it should be -- and then it developed the same issue with its IDE header that the other box (a different client from a different manufacturer) did, where the drive attached to the IDE header would be assigned a volume name -- sda1 -- but was both unbootable in all ways, and could not be accessed once the system was booted from USB (mount errored out with something to the effect of "this drive doesn't actually exist" even though a name was allocated to it).

I've ordered a replacement client, since replacing the internal SD adapter did not work, but right now it's stuck in USPS purgatory. Not the Postal system's fault -- it was sent Media Mail by the unwisely cheap seller on eBay.

For those outside the USA or unaware -- Media Mail is a special service intended for books and other print media. While it *can* be used for electronic media, there are severe restrictions on what can and cannot be sent via that service. As such, it is the single cheapest rate available to ordinary US citizens (bulk rates for junk mail can be lower, I've heard -- but that is by no means available to the everyday Tom, Jake, or Harry). Hence, the eBay seller thought he'd be clever and save a few bucks. Instead, he had to refund me a little while ago, and I may or may not get the dang thing ever. Just a little bad luck, but the good thing for me is that these clients are insanely cheap. I paid $20 for that thing, and it's in as close to perfect condition as you can get without the original power supply (a Netgear router wall wart works fine, I've found) and with the system being gently used.

april

#38 Post by april »

Jeez another fairy chaser ^!^
bigpup wrote:I have installed only to USB flash drives.
My computer has no USB 3 ports.
No such thing, when this computer was made.I would like to know if someone has done a full install to a USB drive that has USB 3 connection speed.
Your results?
Got that USB 2 hard drive120G working and it is definitely a lot faster running than the USB 2 Stick of 16G by twice? If that helps.Full installs on both for the flips

User avatar
bigpup
Posts: 13886
Joined: Sun 11 Oct 2009, 18:15
Location: S.C. USA

#39 Post by bigpup »

april,

Thanks!
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)

starhawk
Posts: 4906
Joined: Mon 22 Nov 2010, 06:04
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

#40 Post by starhawk »

bigpup, did you see my explanation? I know it wasn't nearly as short -- but it's perhaps a bit more informative.

@april -- I don't know what you mean by "fairy chaser", but I'll gladly listen if you'll explain.

User avatar
bigpup
Posts: 13886
Joined: Sun 11 Oct 2009, 18:15
Location: S.C. USA

#41 Post by bigpup »

starhawk wrote: Flash media such as USB flash drives and SD cards are what are called "unmanaged" media. The controllers in those do not have the sophisticated wear-leveling (etc) algorithms that an SSD has.
I am not sure this is true anymore.
I did a search on some of the major USB flash drive manufacturers web sites.
Some state that their flash drives do have some form of wear-leveling built into the flash drives controller.
Also, that it is getting to be the norm.

Example:
From Sandisk web site forums
http://forums.sandisk.com/t5/All-SanDis ... d-p/339714
i would like to inform you that all the flash drives have the wear levelling algorithm inside that prevents the data to be written to the same blocks all the time.
Which kind of wear leveling do Corsair
drives use?
Corsair’s flash drives typically use dynamic wear-
leveling. The reason for this is that dynamic wear-
leveling is less complicated to implement, and
provides endurance that is more than adequate for
consumer flash drive applications.
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)

starhawk
Posts: 4906
Joined: Mon 22 Nov 2010, 06:04
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

#42 Post by starhawk »

Well, yes, but it's not to the same abilities and sophistication as an SSD. My local Linux guru friend has explained this to me numerous times. He runs the town's tech shop, and tinkers besides, so I think he knows what he's doing.

Also worth noting, if you manage to install Windows (7, Vista, or earlier) to a flash drive or SD card, the tendency is that it will run very slowly for less than a month and then the drive goes poof.

User avatar
bigpup
Posts: 13886
Joined: Sun 11 Oct 2009, 18:15
Location: S.C. USA

#43 Post by bigpup »

You ever heard the consumer product design no. 1 rule?

Never design something, so it will never break.
You will only sell it one time. :shock: :evil: :twisted: :roll:
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)

starhawk
Posts: 4906
Joined: Mon 22 Nov 2010, 06:04
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

#44 Post by starhawk »

starhawk wrote:@april -- I don't know what you mean by "fairy chaser", but I'll gladly listen if you'll explain.
~24hrs later: no response?

starhawk
Posts: 4906
Joined: Mon 22 Nov 2010, 06:04
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

#45 Post by starhawk »

Still no response. OK, so you were probably trolling me. Noted.

Although, if you want to actually be understood -- you'll have to try to English a little better than that.

gcmartin

HDDs and SSDs have marked advantages in operations with PCs

#46 Post by gcmartin »

@April, your findings mirror some findings I reported last year. HDD, even an old 10GB IDE (ATA) is doubly faster than the USB2 and USB3 sticks I have.

Thanks for your assessment. Lots of emphasis has been on USB for portability with little emphasis on the speed. The USB with Full installs I have had are NOT portable. Frugals "are", if you remember to F2 for pristine boot when you plug the USB into a different PC. LiveDVD use, is both identifiable as well as portable as F2 is an apparent option to bypass save sessions.

I had often wondered if, with knowledge of the speed drawback, that more emphasis should be paid on HDD/SSD partition "creation and use" for a given PUP, would garner more attention in community use.

USB booting (in fact any LIVE media booting) remands the running OS into a RAM filesystem. Thus once the system is up, the system's operation in NOT based upon the permanent physical filesystem. In this case, whether one used CD/DVD/SD/USB to boot a PUP LIVE has NO advantage once the system reaches desktop.

Thus, the system's permanent media is the fastest boot, followed by one's choice of other boot media Blu/USB/DVD/SD/CD/etc. It is my "opinion" that BluRay is currently the faster of the boot media in the streaming operation it offers for getting its contents into the booting system. I also have had experiences where some PUP DVDs boot as fast and faster than USBs have.

Lastly, one cannot tell by looking if a USB stick if "what version" or "what class" of the USB architecture.

USBs do have there place in providing portable storage and are easily useful in newer laptop PCs which do not have DVD/Blu drives built in (DVDs were a standard device since 2000 on almost every PC-laptop since then). But, today, excepting for BarryK and a few netbooks/tablets floating around, most users do not have one of the new laptops or convertibles, yet. They will come assuming industry continues on its current path and USBs are present to meet that need.

Hope others have similar comparisons in their use of media in their PUPPY use. And hope others find your post helpful.

starhawk
Posts: 4906
Joined: Mon 22 Nov 2010, 06:04
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

#47 Post by starhawk »

Picking up a little here, where the old thread left off.

I've received a replacement client -- not the one off eBay, though; that one's still in USPS purgatory. A kind fellow who saw my woes on the openchrome bugtracker contacted me off-list and said, oh hey I'll send you one on my dime. I expected nothing but forked over my address anyways -- and received a rather nicely packed, er, package yesterday morning as a direct result.

Unfortunately, I haven't the inclination to set up the client (swap over RAM and SD/adapter and all), particularly because I'm rebuilding my mother's desktop right now. Also, I've got a six inch stack of papers to go through and shred, smack in front of that monitor because I've nowhere else to put them in the room. I'll get to setting it up in the next week or so. Probably.

starhawk
Posts: 4906
Joined: Mon 22 Nov 2010, 06:04
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

#48 Post by starhawk »

Set up the client. Attempted boot. "Operating system not found."

Decided to eliminate the installer as a potential issue. Created new partition table in gparted, formatted the card ext4. Stuck on the boot flag. Downloaded latest installer that I could find (from page 2 of this thread) -- it spat a bunch of errors at me during install, towards the end. I have a complete log of Terminal messages from that...

Nevertheless, installed grub4dos, made my usual edits (eliminating useless text) within menu.lst -- the same stuff I do on all my computers, all of which OTHER than this one, boot fine.

Stuck the card back in its adapter in the client, plugged in, powered up. "Operating system not found."

Either grub4dos itself within X-Tahr 1b3 is very suddenly not working on my netbook -- which would make no sense, it was working fine before this problem -- or the card is faulty in some unspecified manner. For what (presumably little) it's worth, the card appears to read and retain data fine -- it just won't be booted from. It can't be the install script in this thread -- it never gets that far -- and it can be neither the client nor the adapter at this point, as I've replaced both.

Install log, copied out of Terminal, appears below this point...

Code: Select all

root# ./puppy_full_installer
I assume you have formatted the drive to ext(2,3,4)
I'm not babysitting so if it isn't do it now!
Is it? (y or n + [Enter/Return])
y
Assuming you are not stupid...
OK, remember.. I'm not responsible here...
Proceeding...

Insert your drive and mount it.
Then tell me the target drive partition (eg: sdc1, sdd1 etc)
GET IT RIGHT!
what is the drive partition?
sdc1
Seems sane..
Ok, /mnt/sdc1 exists. Good.

Now we need some source files
either mount a CD/DVD or an ISO file
THEN, tell me the mount point path
EXAMPLE: /mnt/sr0 or /mnt/+mnt+sda5+iso+tahr64-6.0.3.9.iso
An easy way to do that is enter the mounted folder and type 'pwd' in a terminal
Type the source mount point path.
/mnt/+mnt+sdb1+TEMP+X-tahr-1b3.iso 
Seems sane..

Install from /mnt/+mnt+sdb1+TEMP+X-tahr-1b3.iso to /mnt/sdc1
Press y + [Enter/Return] to continue
y
---------------------------------------------------------------

Decompressing: /mnt/+mnt+sdb1+TEMP+X-tahr-1b3.iso/puppy_tahr_6.0.2.sfs
To target: /mnt/sdc1

please have patience.

Parallel unsquashfs: Using 2 processors
20527 inodes (24780 blocks) to write

[===========================================================/] 24780/24780 100%
created 14790 files
created 1761 directories
created 5402 symlinks
created 335 devices
created 0 fifos

Decompressing: /mnt/+mnt+sdb1+TEMP+X-tahr-1b3.iso/zdrv_tahr_6.0.2.sfs
To target: /mnt/sdc1

please have patience.

Parallel unsquashfs: Using 2 processors
2918 inodes (3190 blocks) to write

[=============================================================\] 3190/3190 100%
created 2909 files
created 596 directories
created 9 symlinks
created 0 devices
created 0 fifos
Upgrading tahrpup to version 6.0.2...
Updating w.m. menus...
grep: /etc/xdg/templates/_root_.jwmrc: No such file or directory
Updating boot and shutdown system scripts...
Executing depmod, to update module files...
/bin/kmod
depmod: ERROR: could not open directory /lib/modules/3.17.4: No such file or directory
depmod: FATAL: could not search modules: No such file or directory
find: warning: you have specified the -noleaf option after a non-option argument -path, but options are not positional (-noleaf affects tests specified before it as well as those specified after it).  Please specify options before other arguments.

Updating /etc/networkmodules...
grep: /lib/modules/3.17.4/modules.dep: No such file or directory
cat: /lib/modules/3.17.4/modules.dep: No such file or directory
gtk-update-icon-cache: Cache file created successfully.
Files being translated:
 /etc/rc.d/functions4puppy4
 /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit
 /etc/rc.d/rc.update
 /etc/rc.d/rc.country
 /usr/local/petget/0setup
Files being translated:
 /root/Choices/ROX-Filer/PuppyPin
cp: cannot stat '/root/Choices/ROX-Filer/PuppyPin': No such file or directory
 /root/.jwmrc-tray
cp: cannot stat '/root/.jwmrc-tray': No such file or directory
+ '[' '!' /root ']'
+ '[' /root = / ']'
+ export HOME
+ '[' -f /root/.jwm/menuheights ']'
++ find /etc/profile.d -name '*.csh'
+ CSH=
+ '[' '' ']'
+ '[' en_US.UTF-8 = C ']'
++ echo -n en_US.UTF-8
++ cut -f 1 -d _
+ LANG1=en
++ ls -1 /etc/xdg/templates
++ tr '\n' ' '
+ TEMPLATES=
++ which variconlinks
+ '[' ']'
++ which tempicons
+ '[' ']'
++ which fbpanel_menu_refresh
+ '[' ']'
++ which lxpanel_menu_refresh
+ '[' ']'
++ which jwm2fluxbox
+ '[' ']'
++ which obmenu-refresh
+ '[' ']'
++ which jwm2pekwm
+ '[' ']'
++ which xfce4-panel
+ '[' /usr/bin/xfce4-panel ']'
+ xfce4-panel -r

(process:22787): Gtk-WARNING **: Locale not supported by C library.
	Using the fallback 'C' locale.
+ gtk-update-icon-cache -f -i /usr/share/icons/hicolor
gtk-update-icon-cache: Cache file created successfully.
+ touch --no-create /usr/share/applications/
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hopefully we're done ...

To make this install bootable you need to run grub4dosconfig to
install a bootloader to the USB drive. In Grub4dosconfig -choose
to install to the USB drive and choose selection: search only
within this device.

If your target is a USB drive then don't forget to add "rootwait"
in the Options textbox, it's the one that has the value "ro"
in it by default.

That would be in the grub4dosconfig window with title:

"Grub4DosConfig - List of detected operating systems"

This is essential for a successful boot.

Now proceed by running grub4dosconfig to complete the install
and making it bootable.
root# 

starhawk
Posts: 4906
Joined: Mon 22 Nov 2010, 06:04
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

#49 Post by starhawk »

Correction to my last post made a few moments ago. I stuck the adapter in a known good drive tester ("USB to IDE SATA Adapter" in eBay-speak) and the SD card appeared in gparted as an unreadable volume with neither partition table nor partitions. Stuck the card into the SD card reader of my netbook, after removing the drive tester from it and pulling the card out of the adapter... and the card read fine.

The adapter is therefore faulty. I've messaged the seller... we'll see what happens. I'm outside of the fourteen-day return window, but sometimes sellers are helpful despite that. Sometimes. We'll see...

Scooby
Posts: 599
Joined: Sat 03 Mar 2012, 09:04

#50 Post by Scooby »

Code: Select all

depmod: ERROR: could not open directory /lib/modules/3.17.4: No such file or directory 
 depmod: FATAL: could not search modules: No such file or directory 
 find: warning: you have specified the -noleaf option after a non-option argument -path, but options are not positional (-noleaf affects tests specified before it as well as those specified after it).  Please specify options before other arguments. 

 Updating /etc/networkmodules... 
 grep: /lib/modules/3.17.4/modules.dep: No such file or directory 
 cat: /lib/modules/3.17.4/modules.dep: No such file or directory 
These ERROR's may be due to installing from OS with different kernel?

Which OS did you run it from ? Was the kernel 3.17.4 in the old one or new one?

Anyway you could try script withou legacy support to skip update step!?

Post Reply