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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Cutting edge
Full Installer to USB flash drives
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 8701
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr 2016, 15:19    Post subject:  

april,

You are installing to a USB hard drive, so may be other issues here.
I have only installed to a USB flash drive.

A full install to a USB flash drive or hard drive is not a normal way to install Puppy.
Grub4dosconfig seems to be able to handle making a working boot loader, so it is being used.

I do not know why you are having so much trouble with this.

First do not use Legacy Grub.
It is known to have problems with the newer versions of Puppy.
In fact, I do not know why people still offer that boot loader.

Grub4dosconfig should be working for you.
I have no problem getting it to make a good boot menu.
I am using Grub4dosconfig V1.9.2

A long shot is, maybe ext4 format is an issue with the Puppy you are running this in, to do the install.
Full ext4 support was not complete in earlier versions of Puppy.

Example:
Slacko 6.3.0
Installed to a USB flash drive with ext2 format.
When you run Grub4dosconfig you should see this:
capture31819.png
 Description   Select the flash drive
Select search only within this device
 Filesize   36.1 KB
 Viewed   330 Time(s)

capture31819.png

capture3067.png
 Description   Add rootwait in options window
 Filesize   24.31 KB
 Viewed   325 Time(s)

capture3067.png

capture3733.png
 Description   Select OK
 Filesize   11.27 KB
 Viewed   320 Time(s)

capture3733.png

capture4738.png
 Description   Close Grub4dosconfig or edit the menu
 Filesize   27.74 KB
 Viewed   323 Time(s)

capture4738.png


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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 8701
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr 2016, 15:55    Post subject:  

Quote:
To make this install bootable you need to run grub4dosconfig to install a bootloader to the USB drive.
In Grub4dosconfig -choose to install to the USB drive and choose selection:
search only within this device.


I did add this but is it only useful for USB or is this misdirection??
like april tried.

I do not think so.
It is telling someone to install to the device you installed Puppy on.
Even when you install to a internal hard drive, you need to install the boot loader to it and only search that drive.

A boot loader has to be on the device you make the computer boot from.
The boot loader has to know what is on that device.

Here you are installing to a USB drive and going to tell the computer to boot from it.

PS:
I updated the first topic with your latest zip package.

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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 8701
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 17 Apr 2016, 16:05    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:

Quote:
Wonder if you could put a yes or no option at the end to start grub4dosconfig Idea

Something like start, open, or run, etc... grub4dos bootloader configure program?
Enter y for yes or n for no

If you enter y for yes.
Grub4dosconfig starts.

What do you think?


I am not to keen on it but am willing to go halfway and add parameter for
it somthing like --auto. Will you take that?

So, grub4dosconfig would auto start?
That would be even better.

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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 8701
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr 2016, 01:35    Post subject:  

Scooby,

Using your latest installer code.

Something that may need tweaking.

When you get to this point in the install (see image below)
It looks like nothing is happening or the program has stopped working. It can take several minutes, before anything changes.
Finally you get the result info.

I am not sure what is exactly happening, at this point in the process, but maybe a place to put a progress meter or something to tell people it is still doing something. Idea
capture19558.png
 Description   
 Filesize   47.55 KB
 Viewed   284 Time(s)

capture19558.png


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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr 2016, 11:12    Post subject:  

@bigpup, Scooby. I noticed that spot too, last time I used the installer.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr 2016, 18:46    Post subject:  

I have installed only to USB flash drives.
My computer has no USB 3 ports.
No such thing, when this computer was made.

I would like to know if someone has done a full install to a USB drive that has USB 3 connection speed.
Your results?

My results are using USB 2 connections.
I have found it is usable, but it does run things slower.
I have also seen different speed results, depending on the brand of USB drive used.
All the USB flash drives say they are USB 3. They should be able to run at USB 2, but that does not seem to really indicate real world results.

I have installed to two different 8GB flash drives and a 32GB drive.
The 32GB flash drive runs the slowest.
It has two partitions .
First one has a Puppy frugal install. It runs fast and well.
Second partition has the Puppy full install. It runs slow, really slow.
Wonder if drive size has anything to do with this speed thing?

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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr 2016, 20:49    Post subject:  

No. Flash media such as USB flash drives and SD cards are what are called "unmanaged" media. The controllers in those do not have the sophisticated wear-leveling (etc) algorithms that an SSD has.

Remember that an OS, also, has far more read/write cycles to disk than a flash drive or SD card would otherwise experience. Transferring a few gigs of pictures is relatively easy for such media, as that's what they're designed for. An operating system... that's a whole different kind of heavy lifting.

You are experiencing the results of that.

This is what I would call a "known bad" configuration. It will eventually kill the flash drive. At the very least, the drive will develop 'bad spots' where writing to certain places will give it problems, or later reads will give a corrupt file, because that cell will no longer 'hold' the contents it's supposed to.

I needed this script for one purpose and one purpose only. I have a strange-relative-to-ordinary-PCs system, one kind of what's called a "thin client" (basically, a computer designed to remote-desktop into a far-away server session upon which the real work is done). I want to use that client --and several others-- for a project; however, in the process of testing them, I discovered that the graphics driver intended to run on that hardware had a problem that broke it for the very unusual chipset in this client.

As a result, I opened a bug report on the tracker for the driver. That bug report now has in excess of three hundred comments on it, and the driver has been almost entirely rewritten as a result of somewhat lackluster enthusiasm on the devs' part with respect to the code itself, and assistance from an extremely helpful newcomer to the project, a man named Kevin Brace who is primarily a hardware dude but saw that he could help me out and did so, to considerable effect.

However -- in order to report back to him why what didn't work, didn't work, I needed to be able to retrieve logs from Puppy sessions where the system hung and had to be hard-rebooted (i.e. with the power switch). That meant a full install, and the easiest way to do that was with an SD card in an IDE adapter, as I had those, and the "real" drives that I have either wouldn't operate in the system (its IDE header has insufficient power to it, to spin up a standard notebook platter drive), or were already on Death's doorstep. There was also the matter that the system I had originally in place for that -- wherein I could plug in a drive, boot from USB, and do a standard full install, then transfer the drive back -- developed a problem where it would no longer properly access its internal IDE header, similar to what's going on with this client now.

Since then I've had problem after problem with the client. It hasn't been working with the driver, even though, by all reports from Kevin and others, it should be -- and then it developed the same issue with its IDE header that the other box (a different client from a different manufacturer) did, where the drive attached to the IDE header would be assigned a volume name -- sda1 -- but was both unbootable in all ways, and could not be accessed once the system was booted from USB (mount errored out with something to the effect of "this drive doesn't actually exist" even though a name was allocated to it).

I've ordered a replacement client, since replacing the internal SD adapter did not work, but right now it's stuck in USPS purgatory. Not the Postal system's fault -- it was sent Media Mail by the unwisely cheap seller on eBay.

For those outside the USA or unaware -- Media Mail is a special service intended for books and other print media. While it *can* be used for electronic media, there are severe restrictions on what can and cannot be sent via that service. As such, it is the single cheapest rate available to ordinary US citizens (bulk rates for junk mail can be lower, I've heard -- but that is by no means available to the everyday Tom, Jake, or Harry). Hence, the eBay seller thought he'd be clever and save a few bucks. Instead, he had to refund me a little while ago, and I may or may not get the dang thing ever. Just a little bad luck, but the good thing for me is that these clients are insanely cheap. I paid $20 for that thing, and it's in as close to perfect condition as you can get without the original power supply (a Netgear router wall wart works fine, I've found) and with the system being gently used.

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april


Joined: 14 Sep 2013
Posts: 924
Location: Burning up on the Great Barrier Reef (Mostly Dead or Dying(me too))

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2016, 02:59    Post subject:  

Jeez another fairy chaser ^!^
bigpup wrote:
I have installed only to USB flash drives.
My computer has no USB 3 ports.
No such thing, when this computer was made.I would like to know if someone has done a full install to a USB drive that has USB 3 connection speed.
Your results?

Got that USB 2 hard drive120G working and it is definitely a lot faster running than the USB 2 Stick of 16G by twice? If that helps.Full installs on both for the flips
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 8701
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2016, 23:15    Post subject:  

april,

Thanks!

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2016, 00:00    Post subject:  

bigpup, did you see my explanation? I know it wasn't nearly as short -- but it's perhaps a bit more informative.

@april -- I don't know what you mean by "fairy chaser", but I'll gladly listen if you'll explain.

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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2016, 01:45    Post subject:  

starhawk wrote:
Flash media such as USB flash drives and SD cards are what are called "unmanaged" media. The controllers in those do not have the sophisticated wear-leveling (etc) algorithms that an SSD has.

I am not sure this is true anymore.
I did a search on some of the major USB flash drive manufacturers web sites.
Some state that their flash drives do have some form of wear-leveling built into the flash drives controller.
Also, that it is getting to be the norm.

Example:
From Sandisk web site forums
http://forums.sandisk.com/t5/All-SanDisk-USB-Flash-Drives/Does-my-USB-Flash-Drive-have-wear-leveling/td-p/339714
Quote:
i would like to inform you that all the flash drives have the wear levelling algorithm inside that prevents the data to be written to the same blocks all the time.


Quote:
Which kind of wear leveling do Corsair
drives use?
Corsair’s flash drives typically use dynamic wear-
leveling. The reason for this is that dynamic wear-
leveling is less complicated to implement, and
provides endurance that is more than adequate for
consumer flash drive applications.

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 5056
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PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2016, 11:14    Post subject:  

Well, yes, but it's not to the same abilities and sophistication as an SSD. My local Linux guru friend has explained this to me numerous times. He runs the town's tech shop, and tinkers besides, so I think he knows what he's doing.

Also worth noting, if you manage to install Windows (7, Vista, or earlier) to a flash drive or SD card, the tendency is that it will run very slowly for less than a month and then the drive goes poof.

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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2016, 18:27    Post subject:  

You ever heard the consumer product design no. 1 rule?

Never design something, so it will never break.
You will only sell it one time. Shocked Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil Rolling Eyes

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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Thu 21 Apr 2016, 11:29    Post subject:  

starhawk wrote:
@april -- I don't know what you mean by "fairy chaser", but I'll gladly listen if you'll explain.


~24hrs later: no response?

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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr 2016, 14:00    Post subject:  

Still no response. OK, so you were probably trolling me. Noted.

Although, if you want to actually be understood -- you'll have to try to English a little better than that.

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