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Xenialpup CE 7.5 / 25 Nov 2017
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2911
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep 2018, 10:07    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
Quote:
And, or course, the size of the save file. The whole save file needs to be written on shutdown

Not sure where you are getting this idea, but it is wrong.

After you first make the original save.
The only thing that gets written to the save, is anything that is not already in the save.
Stuff is just added to the save that is already there.


Hmmm... That's interesting. Then the slow shutdown write issue makes no sense at all.... I assumed that since the SFS had been changed, that the system didn't bother to try figuring out which compressed bits to save, and just rewrote the whole thing. What magic is it doing to keep track of which parts of the SFS need to be updated?

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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11147
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep 2018, 10:56    Post subject:  

How Puppy works:
http://bkhome.org/archive/puppylinux/development/howpuppyworks.html
Look at pupmode 13 operation.

Quote:
Then the slow shutdown write issue makes no sense at all.

The format of the USB flash drive could be an issue.
If it is fat 32 format and that file system is corrupted or probably fragmented.
Can happen with fat 32.

That would slow things down.

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2911
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep 2018, 13:13    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
How Puppy works:
http://bkhome.org/archive/puppylinux/development/howpuppyworks.html
Look at pupmode 13 operation.


Quote:
So, the compromise is that the contents of the top layer is copied down to the next layer -- that is officially supported by unionfs.


If it's really doing a copy, that perhaps still needs to push the entire contents (or rewrite the entire contents) of the save file.

I don't know enough about the guts of this. But my observation is that the write time is consistent with writing the entire save file, through whatever port speed limitations you suffer.

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6502coder


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 482
Location: Western United States

PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep 2018, 14:18    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
The only thing that gets written to the save, is anything that is not already in the save.
Stuff is just added to the save that is already there.

I'm confused about this too. I understand that only new changes are added to the save file, but while the save file contains an entire file system internally, the save file ITSELF is just an ordinary file, as far as the OS is concerned. So doesn't the entire save file have to be written afresh to the storage medium if any part of it gets modified? It's not like the old days when we used to use a floppy disk "hex" editor to do direct read/writes to specific sectors on the disk. Can Linux actually update in-place only PART of a file on a storage medium?
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 12324
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep 2018, 14:37    Post subject:  

6502coder wrote:
Can Linux actually update in-place only PART of a file on a storage medium?

Yes. This is how random-access databases work.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2700
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep 2018, 17:06    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
How Puppy works:
http://bkhome.org/archive/puppylinux/development/howpuppyworks.html
Look at pupmode 13 operation.


Actually, that explains a lot once you factor in that at bootup Puppies create in RAM inodes ("pointers") to where the rest of the files --those not already copied into RAM-- are located.

Suppose you have application XYZ built into your Puppy. On bootup some of XYZ's files are copied into RAM and inodes created pointing to the rest of XYZ's files are located within Puppy_XXX_VersionNumber.sfs. When you install a new version of XYZ, initially that "install" only is written to /initrd/mnt/tmpfs/pup_rw. Barry K's posts shows /initrd/pup_rw but under current Puppies that is a symbolic link to the folder I mentioned. If you restart-x, the inodes will be re-cataloged and will now point to the XYZ files in /initrd/mnt/tmpfs/pup_rw. That, however, is still only in RAM. When a Save is executed the contents of /initrd/mnt/tmpfs/pup_rw are written to your SaveFile/Folder. On bootup, the files of your SaveFile/Folder have priority over the files in Puppy_XXX_VersionNumber.sfs so the inodes created will point to your SaveFile/Folder for the XYZ application.

[Of course, if you do not Save, RAM is cleared on shutdown/reboot so on reboot nothing previously in the /initrd/mnt/tmpfs/pup_rw file will be present and the inodes will still point to XYZ in the Puppy_XXX_VersionNumber.sfs].

If you look at the /initrd/mnt/tmpfs/pup_rw folder, you'll see that it contains folders corresponding to each of those at ~ (top-level Root; not /root). With two exceptions, each of those folders has, or can have created, within it subfolders corresponding to those folders with subfolder directly hanging from ~. The two exceptions are mnt --which on bootup only includes a symbolic link to /mnt/home but which may include others if you mount other media -- and tmp which is a symbolic link to /initrd/mnt/tmpfs/tmp. It is my understanding that Puppies are constructed so that files written to the latter will not be written to a SaveFile/Folder; and files written to the mnt will follow a chosen symbolic link and consequently be written immediately to storage media. [My guess is that with the symbolic link to /mnt/home being builtin, the contents of that mnt folder are also not copied to Storage unless you modify what other storage media to mount on bootup.]

When a Save is executed any other changes made during the current session will be written to the SaveFile/Folder. That includes the setting changes apparently made in /root/.config and others; the changes to documents you have in /root/my-documents and the web-page caches in /root/.cache or /root/spot/.cache, albeit the actual changes were only written to corresponding folders in /initrd/mnt/tmpfs/pup_rw. Which is why, as I said before, I run Puppies under Pupmode 13 with Automatic Save Removed; only install applications immediately on bootup; only Save what SFSes I want to have loaded immediately upon bootup and try to generally try not to have to make any changes except immediately upon bootup when there should not be anything in /initrd/mnt/tmpfs/pup_rw other than the changes I actually want to make.

mikesLr
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6502coder


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 482
Location: Western United States

PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep 2018, 18:14    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
6502coder wrote:
Can Linux actually update in-place only PART of a file on a storage medium?

Yes. This is how random-access databases work.

Interesting. I guess that would explain what I've noticed when doing backups of my savefiles: that the "last modified" date of a savefile never seems to change (it remains stuck at the creation date).
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Billtoo


Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 3582
Location: Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep 2018, 10:46    Post subject: Xenialpup CE 7.5 / 25 Nov 2017  

Xfce4 doesn't work in 32bit xenialpup-7.5 (works perfect in 64bit) so
I am giving radky's fbBox-5.0 a try as an alternative to JWM.
I'm still using gkrellm with fbBox because it's my favorite system
monitor.

It's working well, no problems so far.
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ethplorer

Joined: 21 Apr 2017
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat 06 Oct 2018, 08:21    Post subject:  

if you have to do a frugal install on this, what are your menu.lst parameters inorder to boot the system?

i'm putting all the files in a directory named xenialce75 in the /mnt/sda1/
am i doing it correctly?
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foxpup


Joined: 29 Jul 2016
Posts: 571
Location: europa near northsea

PostPosted: Sat 06 Oct 2018, 12:28    Post subject:  

ethplorer wrote:
if you have to do a frugal install on this, what are your menu.lst parameters inorder to boot the system?

i'm putting all the files in a directory named xenialce75 in the /mnt/sda1/
am i doing it correctly?
That's probably allright.
You give little info to know for sure. I suppose you are on an older machine with legacy boot? Is Grub4dos already installed? MBR and grldr and menu.lst? Do you dual boot with some Windows?
Anyway, have you run grub4dos just to generate a new menu.lst? It will probably find the new frugal install and make a new entry for it in menu.lst.
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ethplorer

Joined: 21 Apr 2017
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon 08 Oct 2018, 13:17    Post subject:  

do you have updated chrome for this pup? tried installing deb files from ubuntu didn't work/ any help please
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2700
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Mon 08 Oct 2018, 16:13    Post subject:  

ethplorer wrote:
do you have updated chrome for this pup? tried installing deb files from ubuntu didn't work/ any help please


Puppies are "woofed"/built to be binary compatible with the distro-version whose binaries go into the building. That "binary-compatibility" makes it possible to install applications directly from the repos of the distro-version using PPM (Puppy Package Manager).

But, be wary about doing that. No Puppy is identical to the distro-version whose binaries were used. Packages built for the distro-version (in your case Xenial Xerus) are so built with the expectation that the foundation of Xenial Xerus will be present and --with specific reference to Xenial-Xerus' Chrome package-- that the system itself will operate in a particular manner.

Xenial-Xerus is a Multi-User system. Consequently its packages are designed to be installed into a User's unique directory. Puppy is a single-user system designed to run as "root"/Administrator. Usually that distinction doesn't matter.

But
Gogle-Chrome [and its original and clones, Chromium, Iron, Slimjet and others] have been for over a year structured by Google NOT TO PERMIT IT TO BE RUN AS ROOT.

In order to run recent Chrome-and-clones under Puppies, they have to be configured to 'run-as-spot', a limited user. OscarTalks, peebee and others have undertaken the arduous tasks of packaging some-Chrome-clones in that manner. You'll find packages in the Additional Software Section. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/index.php?f=53.

There is no current version of Google-Chrome available. OscarTalks has a preference for Slimjet. You'll find a link to his latest version here, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1006708#1006708 and a link to peebee's slightly older version a couple posts above that.

I, personally, like OscarTalks' Iron 63, link from here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1000505#1000505. While you're on that thread, read spiritwild's Nov 30, 2017 post about "user-agent". Some websites won't provide access unless you are using Chrome or Firefox, or they think you are.

Many still find Google-Chrome 48 (pre-Spot) adequate; link here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=909954#909954. Also, pre-Spot is Iron 58. I still occasionally use it. You'll find a link on the Iron thread.

DO UNINSTALL the Chrome you obtained via PPM before trying any "chrome" browser. And if you decide on a "run as spot" browser, look for discussions about how using them effects your practice.

Lastly, in general, before installing anything via PPM that will access a Ubuntu repo, check the Additional Software Section to see if someone has published that application or its equivalent for your Puppy. It will save you a lot of frustration.
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roadkill13

Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 146
Location: United States

PostPosted: Tue 09 Oct 2018, 17:10    Post subject:  

Hi ethplorer.

User mikesir has provided a quite a bit of good information in the above post. It is worth reading through. Since I am running Chrome (and have run Chromium) on XenialPup 64 I thought that I would give you a couple of quick tips.

If you installed the version of Chromium currently available in the puppy package manager it will run as user "spot". I am not sure why it won't run for you. philb666 pre-selected chromium-browser and google-chrome in the loginmanager applet to run as spot when installed on this version of puppy.

To confirm this, open a console and type "loginmanager" without the quotes. You will see a number of browsers listed, several of which have been pre-selected for use as user "spot".

Try running the browser from the console and see if it prints a message.

Also Mike Walsh provides a package for Google Chrome 64 which he updates periodically. It is pre-configured to run as "spot" and provides an additional utility for managing files in the /root/spot/downloads folder.

EDIT: I wasn't paying attention to the fact that you are using the 32 bit version of XenialPup or I would not have recommended the 64 bit package for Google Chrome. Obviously Google Chrome won't run on the 32 bit version of Xenialpup because Chrome only comes in the 64bit flavor on linux.

I have run Slimjet and Chromium on both setups with equal success on the 32bit version of XenialPup and on musher0's version of xenialpup. I apologize for my oversight.

Last edited by roadkill13 on Wed 10 Oct 2018, 13:23; edited 2 times in total
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2700
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 09 Oct 2018, 21:20    Post subject:  

Hi ethplorer,

I'm not familiar with Xenialpup 7.5, never having upgraded from their precedessors, 7.0.8.6, in either the 32-bit or the 64-bit versions. So, I may be missing out on quickpet and changes in PPM that roadkill13 discussed.
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ethplorer

Joined: 21 Apr 2017
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu 11 Oct 2018, 11:52    Post subject:  

run as spot didn't work. yes i was using the 32bit. but thanks i now know there is a user spot. the program is installed but it kept prompting "Aw Snap" error.

i kept trying the ppm but no results still even after installing all the dependencies it asked. until i accidentally load the google_chrome-48.0.2564.116-i386.sfs in the /mnt/home ( which is from slacko) i wonder why it worked. its old version though. anyway i learn a lot. thanks
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