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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Update to Wary 5.5 or is this K6/2 500 stuck with Win98se?
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maddog

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun 2016, 19:09    Post subject:  Update to Wary 5.5 or is this K6/2 500 stuck with Win98se?
Subject description: Gauging interest in an update to Wary
 

Hey all! Is anyone interested in a puppy for (much) older computers? I know that the Wary branch has been "retired", so I'm wondering if anyone is interested in reviving it or something close to it? I would be willing to be a tester. I do that for a living, so it wouldn't be that much of a jump for me if someone would want to take the lead on a Wary 6.x. Alternately, I could start working on this myself, but since I'm a n00bie...that would take much longer. I would need instructions. :/

Opinions? Ideas?

--Ray.
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 10984
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jun 2016, 19:19    Post subject:  

What's wrong with the current Wary 5.5 on your machine?

What features do you think need upgrading?
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maddog

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun 2016, 07:25    Post subject:  

I would say all of them. It's a couple years old at this point. It's just time to think about this.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 1422
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:19    Post subject: Why there's no Wary 6  

Hi maddog,

A bit of history may explain why no one has created a Wary 6. It has to do with binaries --the "nuts, bolts, and building-blocks assembled" to create an operating system and the applications which will run under it. As I understand it --I don't compile-- Source is merely a text file of instructions/arguments which one "feeds" into a compiler which then generates the binaries. The hard part is getting the instructions/arguments right.

Excluding DebianDogs (which are actually modified DebianLiveCDs) and remastery of an existing Pup to generate a Derivative, creation of a Puppy entails "woofing=assembling" binaries. Binaries can be compiled from Source or obtained from other Linux Distros which have already compiled them from Source. Pups before Wary. Quirky and FatDogs before Fatdog 7x, and Wary, itself, obtained binaries by compiling them from Source using the T2 Build Kit.

After creating Wary 5.5, Barry K --inventor of Puppy and Woof-- tested it against Precise Pup, a Puppy "woofed" using the binaries from Ubuntu Precise Pangolin. He concluded that there was no advantage gained in the creation of a Desktop operating system using binaries compiled via the T2 Build Kit over using the "pre-made" binaries of other distros.

He still does his own compiling in the creation of Quirkies -- his experiments for operating systems having unique capabilities.

The Linux Kernel is constantly evolving -- to overcome problems discovered and to take advantage of the potential of newer hardware. To a significant extent a change in the Kernel may require re-compiling hundreds, even thousands, of the binaries which are to run under it. A Wary 6 would only make sense if it were to employ a new Kernel. And perfecting such Wary 6 is likely to run into the same "teething" hurdles you'll find on the FatDog 70x threads, where kirk and Jamesbond published their creation using the hundreds(thousands?) of binaries compiled from Source via Linux From Scratch.

In the end, an operating system is merely a platform on which to run applications. The most efficient way to create it is likely to be the way it is created. Being able to eliminate the need for personally creating hundreds, if not thousands, of binaries in order to reach that objective was Barry K's inspiration for creating Woof.

mikesLr
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maddog

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun 2016, 13:10    Post subject:  

Hmmmm.... If Debian Dog has been compiled for i486, it may be the way to go. ...and for the record, I don't really need a Wary 6. I need a linux distro that will run on a K6/2 cpu that isn't so slow that it's not worth it. Pretty much comes down to either Debian and Slackware. I just happen to remember Wary and have a good opinion of it.

--Ray.
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Robert123

Joined: 20 May 2016
Posts: 180
Location: Pacific

PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun 2016, 14:38    Post subject:  

Hi Maddog,

Have a look maybe at different pups running live and see what works best - some of the earlier lucids, Precise Retro or Debiandog Squeeze and add a later browser eg firefox can be downloaded and run as a portable app. I do this meaning I only worry about updating individual programs instead of a whole base.

There are lots of barebones pups to build a system that suits your machine.

Last edited by Robert123 on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 14:54; edited 1 time in total
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rufwoof


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 1620
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu 16 Jun 2016, 14:38    Post subject:  

maddog wrote:
Hmmmm.... If Debian Dog has been compiled for i486, it may be the way to go. ...and for the record, I don't really need a Wary 6. I need a linux distro that will run on a K6/2 cpu that isn't so slow that it's not worth it. Pretty much comes down to either Debian and Slackware. I just happen to remember Wary and have a good opinion of it.

--Ray.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=906789#906789

Suggests that K6/2 support is being pulled by Debian.
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maddog

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun 2016, 09:22    Post subject:
Subject description: Robert123's suggestions
 

Robert123 wrote:
Hi Maddog,

Have a look maybe at different pups running live and see what works best - some of the earlier lucids, Precise Retro or Debiandog Squeeze and add a later browser eg firefox can be downloaded and run as a portable app. I do this meaning I only worry about updating individual programs instead of a whole base.


I had thought of this as well, which had lead me back to this forum to ask about Wary.

Robert123 wrote:

There are lots of barebones pups to build a system that suits your machine.


Do you have a barebones pup in mind?
--Ray.
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 1668

PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun 2016, 11:09    Post subject:  

How about using Racy 5.5. Exactly the same applications as Wary but with a later kernel which has more capabilities eg. being able to use xz compression. I'm using it now after using Wary for ages. Although the newer puppy's like Precise and Tahr run well on my 10 year old machine, there are some issues. Racy works perfectly and satisfies my needs.
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Robert123

Joined: 20 May 2016
Posts: 180
Location: Pacific

PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun 2016, 13:53    Post subject:  

Old thread but interesting reading:

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=83841

A collection:

https://archive.org/download/PuppyLinux_barebones

Personally I use Lucid 5.11 version - Anyway a starting point.

Also have tried this James C classic:
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Puppy525Retro

For your older processor though the older 511,515 Lucids or the 525 retro may work better - trial and error.


Some Firefox releases to use use Xarchiver to unzip them once you have sorted a suitable base distro:


https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/firefox/releases/
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 5056
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Fri 17 Jun 2016, 14:14    Post subject:  

K6/2-500, eh...? That brings back memories... my father had a "CTX" brand pile of whotsit that had that chip inside. Not AMD's fault that the thing was otherwise trash.

It had a spectacular death, IIRC -- the thermal grease in between CPU and an aftermarket heatsink he installed, was also the adhesion mechanism for said heatsink somehow (methinks Dad missed a bracket somewhere!) and when it failed, the cooler landed on the graphics card and basically shorted out the entire system. Took out the File Allocation Table on the hard drive, on top of everything else, not kidding. I'm pretty sure Dad eventually gave up on stitching all those file fragments back together... it was a couple-of-gigs hard drive, after all, and he'd been using it for quite some time...

On topic: K6/2 CPUs are 5x86-class devices, so they do not have the "CMOV" (conditional move) instruction that permits execution of packages targeted for 6x86-class CPUs ("i686" packages). maddog, you need a Pup that's entirely i386/i486/i586 packages. I seem to recall that Lucid 525 was found to be the last Pup made with that particular characteristic...

rcrsn51 -- I want to say you're the one that figured that one -- can you confirm it for me?

maddog -- one other thing -- I assume this is not your main system? I sure hope not... K6/2 stuff is from forever ago. You're going to be extremely severely limited with that box. You won't even be able to watch the ads on most webpages (which may or may not be a plus) let alone get to YouTube or the like. Heck, I'm not sure you can load animated GIFs on that heap. That box at this point is basically good as a word processor and maybe an email box if you can somehow get a compatible email client...

If that *is* your main system, and you are in the USA, *and* you are interested in upgrading -- shoot me a PM. Seriously. Heck, even if you're outside the US (please let me know what country you're in) -- shoot me a PM if you want an upgrade and I'll see what I can arrange. I tinker Wink so I'm familiar with a few things that might help you. I know it's a little odd -- but I try to help when and where I can.

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maddog

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat 18 Jun 2016, 09:28    Post subject:  

starhawk wrote:
K6/2-500, eh...? That brings back memories... my father had a "CTX" brand pile of whotsit that had that chip inside. Not AMD's fault that the thing was otherwise trash.

It had a spectacular death, IIRC -- the thermal grease in between CPU and an aftermarket heatsink he installed, was also the adhesion mechanism for said heatsink somehow (methinks Dad missed a bracket somewhere!) and when it failed, the cooler landed on the graphics card and basically shorted out the entire system. Took out the File Allocation Table on the hard drive, on top of everything else, not kidding. I'm pretty sure Dad eventually gave up on stitching all those file fragments back together... it was a couple-of-gigs hard drive, after all, and he'd been using it for quite some time...

On topic: K6/2 CPUs are 5x86-class devices, so they do not have the "CMOV" (conditional move) instruction that permits execution of packages targeted for 6x86-class CPUs ("i686" packages). maddog, you need a Pup that's entirely i386/i486/i586 packages. I seem to recall that Lucid 525 was found to be the last Pup made with that particular characteristic...

rcrsn51 -- I want to say you're the one that figured that one -- can you confirm it for me?

maddog -- one other thing -- I assume this is not your main system? I sure hope not... K6/2 stuff is from forever ago. You're going to be extremely severely limited with that box. You won't even be able to watch the ads on most webpages (which may or may not be a plus) let alone get to YouTube or the like. Heck, I'm not sure you can load animated GIFs on that heap. That box at this point is basically good as a word processor and maybe an email box if you can somehow get a compatible email client...

If that *is* your main system, and you are in the USA, *and* you are interested in upgrading -- shoot me a PM. Seriously. Heck, even if you're outside the US (please let me know what country you're in) -- shoot me a PM if you want an upgrade and I'll see what I can arrange. I tinker Wink so I'm familiar with a few things that might help you. I know it's a little odd -- but I try to help when and where I can.


Glad I could bring back a "happy" memory for you. My K6/2 was my first pc and I refer to it as "my toybox". It's long since been replaced as my main system. I don't need anything for it. Frankly, it kept getting nicer cards and more ram over the years. I'd have to double-check but I think the mobo is maxed out. Thanks for the offer though. Smile
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maddog

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Sat 18 Jun 2016, 09:36    Post subject: Moving forward with some ideas  

Thanks everyone! There does seem to be a ton of options, many of them I hadn't thought of. Much thanks to all!

Right now the old beast has a Win98/Salix/Debian 8 on it. Surprisingly, Debian with TDE is running the best. The only browser that I've found that'll work well is Dillo. I've also played with TinyCore and DebianDog. I now have a long list of possibilities to try.

There's this thread that showed up this morning. The last post is interesting.

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=101582

--Ray.

Last edited by maddog on Tue 21 Jun 2016, 19:15; edited 1 time in total
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Robert123

Joined: 20 May 2016
Posts: 180
Location: Pacific

PostPosted: Sat 18 Jun 2016, 14:51    Post subject:  

Hi Maddog,

Glad your having fun and making some progress with that machine,


You could also try this Debian based distro which is lighter than Debian.
http://linuxbbq.org/bbs/index.php

Particularly this iso I'm running at the moment
http://linuxbbq.org/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2395
Uses a 586 kernel.
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 5056
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Sat 18 Jun 2016, 15:20    Post subject:  

Needs to be 100% free of i686 and later packages to run.

NOTHING compiled for i686 using the standard target/options/switches/etc will run, because it's meant to have that CMOV instruction. Technically the instruction is optional, but in practical terms it's not, because everybody includes it. I assume there's a way to compile for i686 *without* the CMOV requirement but I'm not familiar with programming enough to even be certain of that -- and we'd be talking a package-by-package recompile anyways which obviously isn't going to happen.

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