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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Underdog revived
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drongo


Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 369
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul 2016, 13:39    Post subject:  Underdog revived
Subject description: What's in a name?
 

Barry Kauler has announced that he is working on Underdog again.

I always thought this was a good idea, but I think initial development may have stalled because of dependancy problems.

What I don't understand is why it was called Underdog. Since it sits on top of the existing installed Linux filesystem surely it should be called something like TopDog?
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Gyle

Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Fr

PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul 2016, 16:25    Post subject:  

Quote:
...why it was called Underdog

The under the hood mechanism that fires the dogs ?
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gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 6728
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Thu 21 Jul 2016, 16:41    Post subject:  

Would KVM offer much the same, but expanded as it is not limitied to DOGs. It too can run PUPs at the native PC speeds. In my finding, running FATDOG within FATDOG yields the "within FATDOG" performing better than main FATDOG.

Even as it is observed, no explanation has surfaced; why this is. Why is the child that is spawned a better performer than the main? (I suspected I/O buffering, but, this fars apart when one considers that its running in RAM.)

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drongo


Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 369
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri 22 Jul 2016, 02:56    Post subject: KVM and Underdog are different  

I think KVM is slightly different.

Underdog can use applications from the underlying Linux filesystem, so it can be a very lightweight environment. I assume KVM can access files in an external filesystem, but I wouldn't expect it to necessarily be able to run the applications.

Anyway, let's see what the resultant OS does if/when it appears.

I still think the name is odd, might be an Antipodean thing?
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 2341
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Fri 22 Jul 2016, 07:45    Post subject:  

You would think it stranger if he called it "bitch" for bit of chien!!
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BarryK
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Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 7799
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jul 2016, 05:33    Post subject:  

I am trying to recall why I named the underlying distribution "underdog".

The word, as defined by wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underdog_%28term%29

So I suppose I was referring to the original distro being relegated to "underdog" status, with Puppy on top.

But as you say drongo, Puppy is then "top dog".

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rufwoof


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 1617
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun 24 Jul 2016, 08:28    Post subject:  

BarryK wrote:
I am trying to recall why I named the underlying distribution "underdog".

The word, as defined by wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underdog_%28term%29

So I suppose I was referring to the original distro being relegated to "underdog" status, with Puppy on top.

But as you say drongo, Puppy is then "top dog".

Fred's Debian based dedicated initrd approach might be more of a "under-dog" i.e. take a distro and puppify it. What DebianDog does is lock out any automatic kernel updates so that the modules etc in the initrd are the same as the main dog.

Personally I've moved from using that to just running a frugal installed version of Debian Jessie - copied the main filesystem squashfs form their liveCD over onto HDD and have optional persistence set accordingly (I can either run a session read/write i.e. for updating/changing, or read only using the persistence persistence-read-only kernel boot parameter combination). DebianDog is better for maintaining puppy like qualities of loading sfs's etc. However in conflict with that is if you load 'external' programs that can corrupt the Debian package database/system. As their package library is extensive already, and comprised of stable versions, and they push out security fixes quickly, I opted to forego external sfs loading in favour of that centrally maintained/updated package database (extensive Synaptic repositories), whilst still having frugal type booting.

Top Dog (Barry's) seems to me to be totally the other way around. A form of create a puppy and then strive to create programs/repositories to make the puppy more Debian or whatever like. Given the much larger support those repositories receive, that's a tall order IMO.

Frugal Debian Jessie LXDE (Openbox) really flies on the single core Celeron 2GB I'm currently using. LXDE/Openbox isn't that much heavier than jwm/rox and looks very similar to most puppy's

Note how the filenamanger (pcmanfm) below the FILE option has a little triangular warning symbol that if you hover only indicates a warning about running as root. i.e. the system is set to login/run as root ... puppy style.
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BarryK
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jul 2016, 08:51    Post subject:  

rufwoof,
Interesting stuff.

I have never looked at DebianDog closely before, but will do now.

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rufwoof


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 1617
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jul 2016, 09:09    Post subject:  

Quote:
I have never looked at DebianDog closely before, but will do now

This is a relatively quick (assuming fast internet) and easy starting point perhaps (my own upload). That was formed out of this prior thread that figured out how to take a Debian LiveCD and install it as a frugal (HDD).

I've tried KDE, Gnome ... etc other Debian versions but keep coming back to LXDE for its puppy like look and speed.

You can add in some of the features of Gnome like actions without adding in the bloat. In gnome for instance you can have the top left corner as a hot spot so when you mouse into that region it pops up actions. I used this to do similar but without adding the bloat. So if multiple windows active, mouse into top left and click on the window you want from the tidy presented preview set. I also have bottom right set to bring up the log off/shutdown/reboot etc type actions rather than having to click the red button. If you add popular programs to the tray then you can have that auto hide if you prefer (I leave it active as it also shows the clock etc.). Somewhat midway between 'conventional' layout and gnome type layout, but without the bloat ... and runs very quickly.

Toni (saintless) has gone quiet, but apparently looking at things from afresh again. Very clever guy and it will be interesting to see what he comes up with.
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rufwoof


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Sun 24 Jul 2016, 09:31    Post subject:  

This is another interesting post - for Porteus boot style read puppy initrd type style (live-boot is systemd style). I'm actually booting using the live style i.e. systemd myself. I like how its all encapsulated and maintained, but foregoes the access to initrd and changing that to how you want, so in my setup if Debian update the kernel I don't have that pinned (that keeps initrd aligned to the main system) and mine will auto update to that later kernel version.

Devuan is a Debian fork that's in beta stage i.e. a crew who prefer the initrd style and who are porting Debian over so as to retain initrd style. Seems to me that a puppify alternative where Debian live is ported to being a frugal style, with initrd wrapper (under-dog) could be yet another ... and potentially better variant (retains all of Debian support, whilst retaining initrd type booting).

Other choices could also be ported. Just a case of creating the appropriate initrd tuned to each system (and switching the core system over to booting to root GUI desktop rather than running as a user). Some programs don't like (or wont) running as root, VLC for instance. But can be forced to do so. I found a sed command online that 'fixed' that for VLC (haven't the link to hand). Thunar puts out a big border across the top warning you're running in root mode, but can be recompiled to get rid of that. pcmanfm is ok as is, just a small triangular warning. Other than those haven't seen any other problems myself, although I suspect there may very well be some programs that dislike running at GUI root.
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